I have been asked to look at this site
as an independent, i.e not a Nurse or Nursing Student. You lot need to get
your act together, if you are the future of Nursing, I'd rather not be admitted
to any hospital you may work at for fear of retribution because I am the wrong
religion, colour or even belong to the wrong union- God forbid!!! It is no
wonder that the profession is in tatters if this is all the mindless banter
that is going on. Whenever you seem to be asked what you want you revert to
back-biting union politics. For goodness sake pull yourselves together, work
together, current ANS (??) members cannot be totally responsible for acts
played by previous executive members, whoever this Sal Porter is looks like
she is a law unto herself, I hope I never meet her in a hospital either unless
she happens to be a domestic, which by what I have heard of her activity she
most probably is or dam well should be!!!!
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 22:23:15
(BST)
Review of student finance Linda - I think you'll find that a review
was indeed launched of student finance after Alan Milburn met with students
from UNISON and RCN. Both were supposed to send 5 each but ANS couldn't fill
their delegation so there was less than the full 10 at the meeting itself.
It's supposed to last six months and the orginal students will be asked back
for their comments before it goes for a final decision - for the first time
ever. Louise was one of the students from UNISON who attended maybe she could
tell everyone a little more about what was said. Dominic <dominic@unisonfree.net> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 20:34:16
(BST)
Very happy To Sarah I wish to join in with the
congratulations upon completing the ordeal of this Nurse training malarky.
I am about to start my new placement in my second year and I am dreading it
, I haven't really had a good experience of a busy ward and it appears I am
about to. The problem with that is I am a novice as far as experience is concerned
and they will expect me to know what I am doing in my second year. They have
politely told me I have three nights in a row thursday friday and saturday
(obviously short staffed at the weekend!!!) anyway whinge whinge whinge I
look forward to smiling when I finish. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 19:56:57
(BST)Just back from the Labour Party Conference
where I staffed the RCN stall for the week, and have been catching up with
all the postings (rantings??) here. Just to let you know (sorry Kris) that
the RCN has stands at all three major party conferences as well as with the
SNP, Plaid Cymru etc, before anyone accuses us of political bias! It is true
that like most of the trade unions our membership is made up of people from
all political affiliations and we work with whichever government is in power
in order to improve things for nurses and nursing and the NHS. Just because
one of the people posting on here appears to be a little to the right of Attila
the Hun and claims to be an RCN member, he is not in fact speaking for the
RCN. Just regard us as a broad church and a tolerant organisation. To whoever
suggested Ray lost out on the presidency because he was a man, while there
may be bias in some voters, our last General Secretary, Trevor Clay was a
man, and an excellent ambassador for nurses everywhere. And in response to
Anna, when I was on the ANS exec all those years ago (10 to be exact) we were
working even then with the NUS and produced a joint charter for student nurses.
Relationships change over time as people change. Anyway just to let you all
know that I had a chance to ask ALan Milburn about when he was planning to
increase student bursaries and to look again at issues such as restoration
of maternity pay and other benfits. I believe he fudged the issue by mentioning
that there was some kind of a review going on, however I plan to follow up
my question with a letter to push him further. Once again I believe (as someone
who trained in the dark ages) that student status is the way forward to produce
nurses that are educated not trained, but the issue seems to be the pitiful
level of the bursary and that there is no mechanism for its increase. Linda B****y - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 18:17:12
(BST)
Ouch! Chris - Anyone can talk about working
together but action speaks louder than words. Ex ANS executive member Craig
Kirby's defence of Anna D'Arcy speaks volumes about the way ANS has conducted
itself since Unison launched it's campaign for salaried status. In the week
immediately after that launch the former chair of ANS (Sal Porter) accused
Unison of both wanting to end our supernumary status and of wanting to bring
nurse education out of higher education - both a load of cobblers. This has
defined ANS/RCN's approach to the only campaigning on student hardship over
the past year. From the posting I've just seen from Ray it's made clear that
all the unions need to work together if we are to be able to win a fairer
deal. But in order for us to be able to work together there needs to be a
degree of trust and trust must be earned. When I first made a contribution
on this site Andy tried his best to put me down and tried to make it clear
that I was not welcome - well I haven't gone away and neither has Unison.
Like almost all students I would welcome with open arms any joint work between
Unison/RCN/NUS but the ANS exective it seems to me anyway needs to work out
a more mature response to student nurses and midwives who choose to belong
to, and be active in, other unions. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 17:32:17
(BST)
Congratulations Sarah! You lucky thing! I wish my own trial
was at an end! So, it was worth it then? I'll keep reminding myself of that
next time I am spoken to like 's**te'!!! Seriously, all the best in your new
job! Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 16:51:25
(BST)
Us B******S Working Together!!! TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL! I
would like to agree whole-heartedly with Rays comments. The only way that
we are ever going to get out of our present situation is to work together.
At the end of the day there may be differences in membership theories but
WE are ALL nursing students, one voice representative of all carries alot
more clought than two back-biting squabblers- if you see what I mean!!! Division
leads to weakness!!! Although I personally do not agree with returning to
salaried status as an ANS Exec member (From October) I will be working hard
to forge some of the broken links between other unions (Unison and NUS) so
that we can get the best possible solution. There may be issues within each
organisation upon which we view differently but are we not taught as nursing
students that we must accept diversity??? Lets put some of this theory into
practice!!! ------------------ Chris :) P.S. If you are so keen to work together
as a team why do you hide away as annonomous???? Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 14:36:48
(BST)
Work together u b******s! This was a message left on the RCN website
by Ray Rowden and it speaks volumes about where devison get us. Pull yourselves
together ANS and start working together with Unison on the things that we
agree on rather than focusing on what we disagree. We students are having
a shit time out here in the real world so get your act together and work with
Unison/RCM on getting us a better deal. At the labour conference Linda B****y,
Council Member, challenged the Secretary of State on the poor bursary/grant
situation and that students lost out on other rights. He seemed aware of the
problem BUT immediately used the RCN/UNISON split as some excuse for inaction.
i.e, "how can I solve this where there is no agreement?" He seemed to suggest
favouring the bursary above salary. Surely it is now time for some sensible
dialogue between the ANS/RCN and UNISON.
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:26:16
(BST)
Time to move on Sarah - congratulations! You will soon
be able to escape from as you say - being treated like s**t. So there's light
at the end of the tunnel somewhere..... For the rest of us mere mortals who
haven't untaken our trial by ordeal I think its time to move on from all this
talk of political parties. We all have our preferances but this isn't the
forum in which to discuss them. This is a site for student nurses and midwives
to give us the opportunities to discuss issues that are important to us. It's
not here to discuss the pros and cons of privatising the NHS. Andy - WE AGREE!! Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 07:47:30
(BST)
Student nurse is ecstatic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had an interview today.....and guess
what....I got the job!!!!! 3 yrs goes by so quickly. It seems like only yesterday
that I applied to do my nurse training and now its almost over. In one month
I've sat my finals and got the job I've always dreamed of...life just doesn't
get much better than that! surviving on next to nothing and being treated
like s**t will soon be a thing of the past ...oh bliss!!!!!! 3 wks of college
and 7 wks of placement (plus christmas off...for the last time..sob) and I'm
done. Am I happy or what? Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com> - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 02:17:35
(BST)
Oh what a carry on Cheers Andy but to be perfectly honest
I find ALL of the postings containing reference to political parties a tad
tiresome. Whilst I applaud your aims to try and foster some team spirit I
find that some of the comments you have posted do smack of political one-upmanship.
It doesn't do you or your posistion credit when you seem to be entering into
a tit for tat argument with other people. Anyway I wasn't going off at the
deep end I was a little annoyed at the way that we seem to let the discussion
be high-jacked from the important issues and instead turn it into a demonstration
of just how witty and pithy we can be online. Anyway mate I suppose I can
now consider myself told off so I think ill go. Take it easy keep up the good
work and all that. Cheers Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 19:52:23
(BST)
CALM DOWN KRIS Sorry Kris but you've completely misunderstood
my motive and gone off at the deep end. I merely wanted to make the point
that the RCN is a broad church encompassing the views of all political parties
and each should be heard. I am however concerned at people trying to attach
a tory label to the RCN when as you well know it is made up of members from
all political and apolitical backgrounds if I leaned somewhat towards the
labour party it purely because what I said regarding congress was the reality
and also because I feel there have been some particularly pro tory labels
attached to the RCN recently and I was hoping to redress the balance somewhat.
I thought you wMy main aims in the posting were to applaud the value of the
students charter and point out what an excellent document it is and also attempt
to build bridges with prople who I may have not had the best of relationships
with recently. I would really like to work with students on issues of mutual
interest on which we agree and would like to continue open honest and fair
debate on those on which we don't I hope you will welcome this approach Andy McGovern <andy_mm_99@yahoo.com> - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 16:10:09
(BST)
I have a dream... RIGHT THATS IT! STOP IT! if I read one
more posting about the Tories Or Labour being better than anyone else then
I will just scream. This site should be political and not Political (that
means it should be about politics but NOT be used as a Party political broadcast!!!)
The main point is that The Unions who represent the interests of Student Nurses
should follow whatever political party or policy that is in the interests
of their members. Perhaps if, and this is just an idea, some of the people
here stopped political point scoring and say, actually began doing something
for the the members that they serve then maybe just maybe something may change....As
a brilliant man once said 'I have a dream' and it doesn't involve squabbles
among people who should know better! Now consider yourself told off and perhaps
we may actually be able to return to a discussion on Nursing matters, particularly
those of a student nurse type? Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 15:47:27
(BST)
Various Points Having not posted for a few days due
to placement committments, I have come on to the site and having read most
recent postings I am pleasantly surprised. Firsty to Anna D'arcy, Myself and
other newly elected ANS members are deeply concerned at the lack of publicity
surrounding the charter which I have to say is ountstanding and should be
the basis on which the groups involved could move forwrd together on most
but probably not all student nurse issues. I hope that sooner rather than
later we are all able to meet and discuss matters of mutual concern some of
which we may be able to work together on to develop joint strategies. Secondly
to with regards to Louise Browns comments I totally agree that we should be
more positive and work together where possible whilst at the same time recognising
there will be certain issues where this will not be posssible. Finally I don't
feel that the RCN is full of tories I recall at RCN congress that following
speeches by Alan Milburn and William Hague at Congress 2000 there emergency
resolutions to the effect that the health service is safe in the hands of
labour/conservatives the result was that it was safe in labours hands (well
reasonably) and unsafe in the hands of the tories. see ya Andy McGovern <andy_mm_99@yahoo.com> - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 14:55:23
(BST)
Support for Anna D'Arcy What a shame that when people get such
a great chance to air views, share opinions and gain from each others knowledge
and experience these sites get taken over by the small minded, bitter and
twisted folk that surf the net. As an ex-ANS oficer who worked for over 3
years supporting nursing and midwifery students I am so tired to see that
nothing much has changed. Does nobody realise that it is this back stabbing
and bitching that has divided nursing for all these years, the divides that
mean we still get paid peanuts and are treated like fools by the wider NHS
and government. It's this kind of behaviour that makes me glad to have got
back to nursing because as a mere Staff Nurse I am allowed the opportunity
to ignore such behaviour. I can only offer my support and thanks to Anna D'Arcy
for all the work, time and commitment she put into the charter and ensuring
the NUS did not sideline nurses and midwives which beleive me they were very
keen to do. So what if Anna isn't a nurse, She put more time an effort into
supporting nurses and midwives nationally than most students I have ever met.
Should we not be grateful to anyone that helps develop and strengthen the
profession that we work in? I know I am! I look forward to seeing what the
small minded out there have to say about me, I'm sure I'll be in for a real
treat. Please feel free to abuse me if it makes you feel better about yourself.
thanks for reading my ramblings, signed a very dissapointed Staff Nurse! Craig Kirby <craig_kirby@hotmail.com> - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:58:49
(BST)
UGLY LITTLE TORIES Louise from Plymouth, How would you
like it if I called you an ugly little Nurse or said oh god that louise is
raising her head again. If I want to be a member of the Tory Party then so
what. I will certainly entertain debates on policy but what you have said
is personal to the many tories and the many tories in RCN. Privatisation is
a kind thing to do for the NHS. I believe it will help poor people, as those
with incomes start looking for funding for themselves and we can help the
poorest. We can not treat everything for everyone on National Insurance contributions,
but that is what people expect these days with advances in medicine. I would
go even further and suggest that the private sector should be involved in
training Health Proffessionals. At the moment you have people being trained
by the NHS with Taxpayers money who then bugger off and work privately. The
reason so many patients are waiting these days is that you see the same doctor,
private or public but those who pay see him first. If they and a great many
nurses want to work privatley then let the private sector pay for their training
and let them bugger off there whilst that frees up NHS payed for health Professionals
to concentrate on the NHS. The way New Lbaour is going i'm sure that this
is something that they could back too. please don't slag me off for being
a tory again people. What do others think on privatisation? Victor Victor Underwood
<vpfeud@hotmail.com> - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:09:24
(BST)
Replies I will start by replying to Donna, I
did not interpret your posting as an attack! I enjoy the opportunity to bring
my finances up. Louise I did mention politics but only because too many people
were bringing tories and all that nonsense into it. I appreciate that you
need to know the devil to defeat him, however I do believe that it is not
something that needs to start with them because there is not enough time to
wait for them to get off their arses. I would like to laugh whole heartedly
at the SPAM. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 20:50:44
(BST)
Chat error!! Sorry about that must be the medication.
To access chat you go to the Nurselife homepage then click on "Communities"
and then you get the headings as I already mentioned and hey presto hopefully
you should get into chat like this!! Think I should go and get some well earned
sleep!!! Nite all ZZZZzzzzzz Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 20:14:22
(BST)
Chat, and all that... Sorry, your information is completely
inaccurate. NurseLife does NOT make money by selling user information, and
options for receiving e-mails from NurseLife or any other source are clearly
stated at sign-up. I repeat, we do not sell your information, it is private
and protected, and if we filled your @nurselife.co.uk mailbox with tons of
junk, we would be clogging up our own systems and slow things down. andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 19:01:14
(BST)
How about a truce......? How about drawing line under all this
conflict that's been going on between the two unions over the past week or
so. I think now pretty much everyone understands the differences between Unison/RCN
which has been very interesting - I didn't expect some Tories to rear their
ugly heads but everyone has a cross to bear. In the last couple of days the
debate has gone downhill - its important that everyone understands the need
to respect the views of others and recognise that no one person has a monopoly
of the truth. This is a site for students and regardless of what some people
think student hardship is a major issue so I make no apology for being 'political'.
And why am I political? I was asked by a nurse on my last placement a couple
of weeks ago what my ambitions were and they are rather limited at the moment.
My ambition is simply to be able to work a 37.5 hour week. To be able to spend
time with people I care about without having to worry about how I'm going
to pay the bills. Thats why I've become active in Unison together with others
in my cohort. We are all just fed up with trying to survive on bugger all
and are determined to try and do something about it. The reason why I support
Unison's campaigning for a salary is because we've seen the value of our bursary
fall since project 2000 came into being because its only raised when the secretary
of state for health feels like it. The bursary wasn't increased very much
whilst the Tories were in power. By being linked into the pay structures within
the NHS we would enjoy the protection that all the unions in the NHS have
fought for decades to build up to what they are now - I think its worth trying
to get some of that protection. It may be difficult to get a salary - the
government would prefer not to spend money on us if they could get away it
- but that shouln't mean we shouldn't try. Maybe I should be more realistic
BUT perhaps its the government who are the ones who should be more realistic.
How on earth are they going to get people into nursing & midwifery unless
they INVEST IN US. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 18:58:26
(BST)
I'll chat with u Ange - so was it just a cheap marketing
ploy to get your email address then? Perhaps Nurse life sell your details
on to everyone under the sun - expect all those offers that you can't resist
clogging up your inbox any day now. We may have our differences here on the
site here but at least we can do it without having to worry about all that
kind of stuff. Don't worry - I'll chat with you! Louise Brown <L.Brown@plymouth.ac.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 17:06:41
(BST)
I want to chat! I registered with nurselife, thanks
to the degree of advertising on this website! However, I am unable to find
the 'live chat' facility, that you all rave about! Can anyone help please? Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:56:31
(BST)
Contact details for postcards The Unison officer co-ordinating their
distribution is called Dominic Forristal : (01823) 288031 / email: d.forristal@unison.co.uk Louise Brown <L.Brown@plymouth.ac.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:01:21
(BST)
ACTION against student hardship
- postcard campaign Unison is launching a postcard campaign
this week to begin putting more pressure upon the government to take action
and deal with student hardship. They support Unison's campaign for salaried
status and are addressed to Alan Milburn at the DoH. If anyone would like
some to distribute amongst supporters of the campaign please contact Dominic
Forristal who is one of Unison's nursing student officers
with your address and how many you would like. Those Tories who were rambling
on about the need for mass privatisation in the NHS - please please stay with
the RCN. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:58:31
(BST)
RCN Election Hi! I am back from the labour party
conference and on line. Just want to thank all who have contacted me over
recent weeks. You have been great, and many thanks for the supportive postings.
The good thing about the election is that the RCN must take note that my support
was significant and that the winner was not expected, suggesting strongly
that many RCN members did VOTE FOR CHANGE. I will keep pressure up on student
issues via many platforms and keep engaged in the debates. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 13:54:02
(BST)
New Zealand nurses strike New Zealand hospitals could face further
nursing strikes before Christmas if pay demands are not met, says the Nurses
Organisation. nurses at Capital Coast Health voted overwhelmingly yesterday
to support an October 1 strike, at a fiery stopwork meeting at Wellington
Hospital. NZ Nurses Organisation spokesman Russell Taylor said today the meeting
featured a lot of discussion about "a much more intense and industrial action"
if nurses' demands were not met. He said nurses were infuriated by the fact
that specialist nurses had been offered 7% while non specialist recieved a
5 per cent pay offer "That rise has really tapped into some fundamental values.
Nurses believe that irrespective of which part of the hospital they work in
they should be paid the same." Nurses at Kenepuru Hospital will stop work
tomorrow to vote on whether to strike. Health Minister Annette King told a
national nurses conference in Wellington it was up to hospital companies to
come up with money for pay rises. She said the Government had fulfilled its
responsibilities by providing hospital companies with additional funding in
this year's Budget Michael Walker <m.m.walker@unison.co.uk> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 12:58:21
(BST)
Point of information Whoever left that ridicuolous message
for me obviously did not have the guts to put their name to it. For you information
i was a health care assistant and studying an access to Health course before
i was elected to the national Union of students. As no nurses were involved
then in NUS, i was the nearest thing they had and i was given the the portfolio
of National spokesperson for Nursing and Midwifery and health care students.
This was a responsibility i took very seriously and researched my position
by visiting every health campus in England. I also worked very closley with
RCN, RCM AND UNISON and was deemed good enough by all three organisations
to represent students and speak at all thier conferences. I was also deemed
as something of an expert as i was invited to several conferences by consortia
and the Department of health. My mission was not to pass myself off as a Nurse
or Midwife but to activley work with all three organisations to enable and
educate their student members to be involved in NUS, the other side to my
role was to educate NUS Officers in the ways of Nursing students and how they
could better represent those students and work with them. I also started off
the Charte, again by bringing the three organisations together as they agree
on more things than they disagree. It took me two years of hard work, meeting
after meeting, night after night on a computer to write it. Those involved
in developing it were excellent, Craig Kirby, Liam Williams and Denise Chaffer
from the RCN, Karen Jennings and Robert Baughan from UNISON and Sue Jacobs
from The RCM. All were very very open minded and put students before anything
else and several members of all organisations were involved in setting up
joint working groups with Universities and THE cHARTER. Unfrotunatley when
the ANS Elected officers left and new people took over, a very different message
came out of RCN, which was one of divisions. This was quite shocking to people
like me who had enjoyed very postive working relationships with all involved.
The Charter also got shunned after the ANS/William Hague attempt and so two
years of my lifes work went down the drain. I do not apologise for trying
to get nursing students involved in issues and NUS, and i do not apologise
for trying to get nus to take notice of Nursing students. Those of you in
both organisations who also enjoy Local students'; Unions positions largely
have the fact to thank that i came along to your Nursing student Conferences
and told your organsiations that you should set them up in the first place.
No i am not a nursing student and i have never claimed to be. But i have been
elected to and given job roles which require me to involve people and break
down barriers and create understanding. I have to presume by what the vitriolic
message to me said that the person is an RCN member. Having workied with excellent
people from RCN and ANS in the past i can only say that you really have let
your organisation down badly and the people in the past from your organisation
who tried so hard to stop the kind of disgusting rubbish i have seen on this
site since i have clicked. I always took to Heart Denise Chaffer from RCN's
Comment which i have already mentioned which was the fact "we agree on more
than we disagree" I think certain people in your organisation should take
those comments on board and think really hard about which direction you are
intending on going for the next year. If the direction is the way i have seen
on this site then i'm afraid you are destined to be sidelined and ignored
for another year by other student organisations. If it one like Ray Rowden
had in mind of Co-operation then i am sure you will be welcomed with open
arms again. Please do not insult me again with reference to my work, i have
dedicated almost 5 years of my life now to the work of Nurse education and
participation, my family and my children have been involved and had to make
do with Mummy not being there because i'm off to another meeting. I find the
message insulting to the sacrifices they have made too and that is what makes
me very angry about such an ill-informed message. Anna D'Arcy Anna D'Arcy <a.darcy@UNISON.CO.UK> - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 11:09:14
(BST)
Fantastic Ay sounds like good advice!!! Cut the
cr*p and get down to the business!!! I.P.Freely - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 23:16:54
(BST)
SMASHING!! Forget all that dreary talk of poor
pay and sleep-outs! Lets all try and chat each other up instead. Frnakly I
have to say I prefer apathy to lunacy
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 23:10:36
(BST)
Live Chat I have just been one of the newest websites
for Nursing: www.Nurselife.co.uk. They actually have a live on-line chat room
which is excellent for sharing news, views and ideas. My advice is shell the
political Bull and get yourself signed up and over there and get chatting!!!!
Get "networking"!!! See you over there!!! Flo - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 22:52:28
(BST)York or Croy-den?
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 22:39:36
(BST)
Point Of Information Anna D'Arcy, when and where exactly
did you qualify as a nurse? Whats that, I didn't quite catch it, Oh you are
not and have not been one! Oh we missed that one shame that!!! Was Nursing
and Midwifery the only thing UNISON would let you loose on?? Can't do too
much damage there can you really???? I think I shall apply for Ronnie B's
job because it seems apparent "no experience neccessary" gets you a long way
these days!!!! A grieved Nestle Employee - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 21:43:11
(BST)
Nice Try Bad luck Ray Rowden, he fought a gallant
battle but he allways had two major problems. Firstly he was a male (and the
RCN would rather die than have anyone of that 'type' in a posistion of power!)
and secondly he may have been advocating change, which is obviously evil in
Nursing terms! However as a member im sure we will all be astounded at the
way in which the new president leaps into action and the sheer lightning speed
with which she makes change happen. I wait with baited breath! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:20:12
(BST)
About as much use as a chocolate
fireguard! Has anyone been to the RCN's press release
centre recently? You really should check it out and see how much our esteemed
"representatives" are doing (or not doing) for students. They have called
for the pay review body (PRB) to improve the financial lot of everyone in
nursing including the health care assistants! Impressive you may say or about
time they did something. Unfortunately they forgot, yes you guessed it...........STUDENTS!
HCA's aren't even members of the RCN (yet) and yet they still get a higher
billing than us. Maybe they actually think of students as HCA's with the option
to become qualified after 3 years of hard labour, sorry I did mean training
honest. I think that the only reason I am a member of the RCN is because I
don't have any other choice if I want a union that soley represents nurses.
Another stunning move by a union that has close links with the circus and
its clowns that have been in Leicester recently. Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:19:43
(BST)
Ray Commiserations to Ray who fought so
gamely, sadly within this sphere it is not the little people or the downtrodden
that seem able to raise a leader. We can only hope that his benevelence to
students continues, as he was a voice in the wilderness on that front. However,
I am sure that the worthy winner will no doubt go on to put me to shame with
the sheer pace of the reforms she sweeps into student nursing. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:50:12
(BST)
RCN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION SHOCK The result of RCN Presidential election
is Roswyn Hakesley-Brown 26,230 Ray Rowden 22,004. Roswyn Hakesley-Brown works
in the private sector as an independent manager/consultant. May I be one of
the first to commiserate with Ray Rowden who in my view would be an excellent
President of any nursing union, UNISON included.It will be more vital than
ever that radical, progressive elements within nursing students work together
to secure a better deal for nursing & midwifery students Michael Walker - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 16:44:29
(BST)
UNISON/Nursing Times Survey In response to Andy, UNISON had no input
in to the survey apart fromthe fact we sponsered Nursing Times to run it.
It was open to all students and the number to ring to register your votes
was advertised in the Nursing Times and run by them. As was the form that
accompanied it. I have also spotted some people talking about the March. Do
i presume they are talking about the NUS March for Education? NUS have agreed
that UNISON Student Nurses can have the front of the March again. This will
be to highlight the Salaries campaign. As our student members and NUS are
paying for part of this we will not be issuing an open invitation to RCN/ANS
to join us. We will be inviting pro-salary RCN students to join us and we
will have special banners for those students to hold. Anna Anna D'Arcy <a.darcy@unison> - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 10:55:39
(BST)
Student Nurse/ Registered Nurse Dear Sir/ Madam, I am interested to
enrol for a training to be a Registered Nurse in UK. Susan Choe <suechoe@hotmail.com> - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 06:11:59
(BST)
I seem to have missed this bit... Who said ####! to whom in relation to
what? As for the bursary, without being wounding, it would seem that there
is a very (very) small group who find it satisfactory. With less than 5 months
to go, we held a straw poll of one of the sub sets and found only one student
who would start training again, armed with the knowledge we have now. Perhaps
that describes the situation more eloquently than I ever could. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 23:08:47
(BST)
Give it a chance! In reply to p***** off, give it a chance.
Im starting my forth placement at the moment, and the previous three have
all been very different but equally interesting and challenging. In my experience
you get out of it what you put into it. On my last placement the ward was
extremely busy all the time but my mentor always gave me time to discuss and
talk through things not necessarily at that time but when they were less busy.
Ok, all mentors are not all like this but persevere and remember we are students
here to learn so I dont think that our bursary is that bad!!!!!!!!!!!(my god
I'm in for it!?!?!?) Nat Mills <natwm@yahoo.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:36:41
(BST)
EXACTLY, COULDN'T AGREE MORE Get on over to 'nurselife' and join
a on-line electronic commune. This is a non-profit organisation with purely
egalitarian ideals. No one is making a penny from the site and there will
be no emotion or anything man. So get onboard before the rowdy types jump
on board. Remember this is run for and by students with the purest of intents,
and not a penny of personal gain, honest
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:18:58
(BST)
See what I mean? I rest my case about how damaging such
activity can be. Get a life. No meaningless words for the in-crowd. NurseLife.
andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:05:20
(BST)
SPAM When I was little, there was this unpalatable
crap in a can which was foisted on the masses, almost a form of oppression.
I thought that I had seen the last of trembling pink flesh, but it has returned
to haunt me. I hate SPAM and the people that make SPAM and the people who
sell SPAM and the people that invade every corner of the 'net with their 'mini-Gates'
ideas and SPAM. What nursing needs are passionate people, and argument is
often the manifestation of that passion, who are prepared to fight anyone
for the rights of others. What it does not need is SPAM or the 'come over
here, the grass is greener' crap from the purveyors of SPAM
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:56:00
(BST)
Moderators wanted NurseLife needs student moderators who
are willing to monitor the student community page(s) and and live chat rooms.
If you are interested in getting in "at the ground floor", you need to be
a nursing student who is willing to monitor the pages, offer advice and take
action when the live chat or messages show abuse of any kind. All enquiries
should be directed to executive@nurselife.co.uk Thanks, visit NurseLife at
www.nurselife.co.uk NurseLife <executive@nurselife.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:36:31
(BST)Well said Andrew!! Lets get things moving!!!! Chris - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:35:45
(BST)
Time for a change A lot of heat on this site - this union
stuff doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. The losers are those caught in
the crossfire, and while messages pleading for help on real day-to-day issues
go unanswered, much muscle flexing is evident from the union fanatics. There
can only be one answer - get a NurseLife! No hassle, no rubbish, just fact
and a chance for you to guide something new. e-mail, community pages and live
chat, all waiting at www.nurselife.co.uk Let's make a difference...... Andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:27:49
(BST)
Sleep Outs I am not against anyone having sleep
outs before march. I am trying to organise one for Edinburgh but since I have
had no offer of help to organise ones in London etc. then I'm concentrating
on that one at the moment. I am in my final year I am trying to finish course
work as well as my final assignment, I also have my duties as nursing officer
on my uni's student association. That is why I want to take my time and organise
it so that there is representation from every nursing college in scotland.
The royal mile (the road that leads up to the Edinburgh parliament) is about
amile long I want that mile to be covered in student nurses. I hope you all
understand. You all seem to be enthused about the idea so why not organise
your own one lets show the public that we mean buisness. I still would like
for there to be one in London, Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh on the same
day but right now it might not be possible. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 19:49:01
(BST)
Psychosocial assesements I need any useful links for the use
of psychosocial assesement strategies, and the stress vulnerability model,
in relation to mental illness. Thankyou Lindsay <lindsay.j@lineone.net> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 16:26:40
(BST)
Sleep outs I was hoping that all the venues could
do the sleep out in october, I realise this is short notice - is there any
chance it would be feasible to do it so soon? As for the bursary vs salary.........bursary
implies we are like other students we are not, we are clearly very different
1) lack of student loans 2) lack of access funds 3) doing a 37.5 hour week
with up to 24hours private study (most students have between 8-22 hours of
lectures per week) 4) lack of the long summer break to earn real money to
enable us to keep studying and eating. Nursing students are completely different
from other universtiy students. Oh yes and we are not entitled to career development
loans. I am in no way being disrespectful to other students I am just saying
that we are so different. Having a salary would entitle us to so much more
- family tax credit relief for those with dependants, minimum wage, a chance
to contribute to our NHS pension. Yes a bigger bursary would be nice - we
all know that at the end of the day we do around a seventy hour week just
to make ends meet, but a bursary does not do student nurses justice (I realise
i may have upset some people here, I am sorry but this is what I believe -
the bursary system does not seem to be working. my friend is a student nurse
- she is a single mother and pays out just under £400 a month for child care
fees - I do not believe that anyone can support themselves and raise a child
with just over £50 a week - she would be better off on income support where
she would get around £90 and be entitled to housing benefit! Anne-Marie Osborne
<h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 16:13:22
(BST)
ANS Conference Funding Discussion I sat in on the Scotland,Wales and Northern
Ireland regions when student funding was discussed at the ANS Conference and
the general concensus from feedback was that Salaries were a big NO and that
increased bursaries were the way forward- No surveys, just students expressing
their views, so lets listen to them, yeah???? Chris <cheadland@lineone.net> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 15:14:03
(BST)
From the ENB with Love This is the actual reply as sent to
me by the ENB as regarding the possibility of students having to do three
weeks of nights.##############Thank you for your enquiry. I trust the following
will provide helpful clarification regarding the "rumours" to which you refer.
The Board's policy regarding 24 hour care experience is given in its Standard
8 (Practice Experience) published in its October 1997 document "Standards
for Approval of Higher Education Institutions and Programmes" (page 22, criteria
(e)). This criteria is that pre-registration nursing and midwifery students'
experience includes the 24-hour cycle of patient/client care. The NHS Executive
in its September 1998 Health Service Circular (HCS 1998/149) refers to the
Board's Standards in stating that all pre-registration students must experience
the full cycle of 24 hour care in order to meet their learning outcomes. The
Board's more recent publication "Education in Focus (section one)" (January
2000, page 15, para 5.3) repeats the statement made in HSC 1998/149. It is
for local curriculum developers to decide how to implement the Board's Standards.
Detailed arrangements for students' practice experience - including the amount
of night duty to be undertaken - are decided locally, not by this Board. So
it seems that the rumours flying about have been just that. Perhaps the descion
has been taken locally but it is NOT a nationwide policy. Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:16:21
(BST)
Bursary Position Can I make it clear that my views on
the bursary vs salary debate are my own. If you wish to find out the RCN ANS
view contact RCN HQ. I do not take up office until 18 October and if at that
time the position of the RCN is to return to tha salary than as Chair I will
publicly support this view. I believe in a democratic process but I must say
that whwn the bursary was discussed at ANS conference I felt that the general
opinion was that we retain the bursary albeit in a revised form. Perhaps if
this wass mirrored throughout the ANS then my personal views are correct.
As for the NT/UNISON survey, could someone tell me as I honesatly don't know
were the students canvassed just UNISON members or were they just a representative
sample of nursing students. If the former is true, then the surveys findings
could be somewhat lis-leading. I'm sure someone can clarify thius point. Thanks
Andy McGovern - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 11:58:57
(BST)
Whats the problem? Mike , what is your problem? I totally
endorse Andy McGovern and Anne-marie O'Toole's position on Bursaries. I too
am a member of the Conservative party and made the consious desicion to join
RCN because of the excellent relationship between the two organisations. I
too, like Anne-marie feel that only a conservative government will rid us
of the burden of carrying Health Care Assistants around with us and free us
up to be proffesionals. On the democratic front- It was actually the Tory
Party that brought in elections in Trades Unions for General Secretaries and
damm good job too i say. We in RCN do not have to have elections because we
are not TUC affliated thank the Lord. I actually trust our Leadership to take
these decisions for us such as salaries and our successor. Why on earth do
we pay them what we do if they can not take a decision on our behalf. We can
not afford a ballot everytime we have to make a decision that some members
do not agree with and i believe young man that you may be in the minority.
Yours Victor Victor Underwood
<vpfeud@hotmail.com> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 10:33:25
(BST)
SHOCK - NO VOTE FOR RCN GEN SEC
SUCCESSOR I am shocked by reading Anne-marie O'Toole's
very "Marie Antionette" view of Caring as in "let them be Care Assisstants!"
Thankyou Louise of Plymouth for your Kind comments. I am having a serious
think about whether to join UNISON or not at the moment. I would like to say
that i have a big democratic problem with ANS. Andy, tell me when ANS members
are going to be balloted on the Salaries position and if students win the
fight they want in ANS, will you then defend that Position? The second Democratic
Shocker is Christine Hancocks Successor. I have just rang RCN HQ and have
been informed that unlike everyother union in Britain we as RCN members will
be denied a vote for the successor to the £100,000 plus Ms "in my day" Hancock.
I thought this was illegal? I really cannot believe this in this day and age.
So a group of four Middle Aged Matrons will elect one of their own, yet again.
God Help us Mike Mike Phillips <mikephillips21@hotmail.com> - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 10:23:33
(BST)
To Lynette I really hope you didn't feel that I
was venting any of my frustrations towards yourself as that certainly was
not my intention. I personally do not resent the extra £2,100 which you recieve,
as there is absolutely no way in which our household could be run on the bursary
you have. It is people in your and my situation that I am arguing for and
I don't count your husband amongst those who 'choose' to be unemployed because
in your case there is good reason. Your situation highlights the precise fact
that I was trying to illustrate - that the low bursary is forcing more and
more nursing students into poverty in one way or another. It's a classic case
of damned if you do and damned if you don't. (Anyway I really don't think
that anybody with the task of looking after 3 children can be classed as 'not
working', I have 2 children and that's work enough for me thankyou!) And as
for you feeling guilty for getting the extra please don't. You have no reason
to and I'm sure any other nursing student would agree with me. I hope that
this clears things up. Good luck with the rest of your course. Donna :-) Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 23:16:18
(BST)
Yawn! I thought that we had got over the necessity
of people posting anonymous postings. If your not prepared to put your name
to your "works or art", then what are you doing here? Your really not doing
anybody any favours! Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 23:04:56
(BST)
resolution for you Lynette! You have to keep hitting the 'refresh'
button to reset the page as it cannot be updated when you are reading/writing
messages. If this is not the problem it could be your ISP connection or just
that this site is experiencing technical difficulties. Ange - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:51:43
(BST)
bizarre when I logged on about 5 mins ago the
last message posted was from K. Nicol about 7 o'clock I just posted my message
to find that in fact there are many messages in between...?what's that all
about? Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:23:25
(BST)
OH WHAT FUN I just had great fun venting my spleen
at those email address. thanks everyone.they are again Mel; mchevannes@dmu.ac.uk
and Tony Smith; link@enb.org.uk . send them a message it is good fun. PLEASE
WILL PEOPLE STOP GETTING SUCKED IN BY THE POLITICS. This is our fight if unions
and political parties want to join in that is up to them we are going to have
ensure that action is taken regardless of their indifference or interference.
I like the sound of 20 th October. I assume you mean all venues Anne-Marie?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:19:03
(BST)This website is getting boring and is
enough to put off potential students with all the political crap that is posted
onto it! There is a good side to training to be a nurse and we should all
be comparing notes and giving advice about the training to each other, not
whingeing on and arguing about politics!
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:37:17
(BST)
On the beaches I have this curious 'Kinnock in the
waves' image which I cannot shake, what with the various heavyweights lining
up in Brighton to consider the DOMEstic scene. I tell you, spend a day doing
pointless moving and handling revision and all hell breaks loose. Sorry, had
to say that, every time I have written anything before, someone else has written
that! Anyway, politics schmolitics I say! I want to quote one of my heroes,
and I believe the last leader of a multiparty parliament, Sir Winston Churchill.
He suggested that with dark clouds on the horizon, it was time for "war, war"
and not "jaw, jaw. I am astounded by the vigour and venom of those who would
defend their allegiances and actions (sic) against all question or query.
This rambunctious rambling suggests that at some given point they must be
able to draw on previously hidden reserves of genuine passion. The debates
raised since the conference of nursing students in Leicester have been treated
with the disdain that all members interests should be... However, call someone
in exulted status a lefty or a Tory and whoosh! I never knew that anyone wanting
to take the fight to the enemy was allowed into the brilliant azure of the
hierarchy? Ah, well, pay day today and I am off down the union. When I come
back I would imagine all this heartfelt passion on behalf of the various 'unions'
(sic) will have been converted into a 50% pay rise, better working conditions
and a firm NO to the ENB proposals. That, or as ususal the only trace will
be a warm brown stripe on the very gusset of nursings future, like German
opera, all wind and water... Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:07:48
(BST)
:o) Kris, Am not having a go, I just am
intrigued that I am so important that somebody wants to pretend that they
are me, maybe they would like the huge overdraft and debts that I have to
go with the name!!!!! Anyway, lets get back to the real issues (ooh god sound
like a politician!!!) and see some action from all these words!!! Reading
both this site and other message boards for nursing students it is evident
that there is some mud slinging going on from all sides. However it is important
for us to pull together sometimes regardless of membership to get the best
deal for nursing students that we can, isn't that the idea of these type of
message forums-ACTION????? Bye-4-now Chris :o) Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:05:35
(BST)
response to Andy Andy as chair of ANS you are there to
represent the views of ANS members, it is clear that you have no intention
of doing this. Only a blind man could have failed to see the resounding YES
to salaries from students across the country who took part in the NT/UNISON
survey. 66% of students and 78% of qualified nurses say YES to a salary ,
you are out of touch. Theres no doubt it will be difficult to persuade the
government to part with the necessary cash to deal with once and for all the
issue of student poverty, but your narrow-minded, elitest, clap-trap will
do nothing but set us back for years. Your predecessors did nothing to combat
student hardship and it looks likely that you will do exactly the same (sweet
FA).Mike is just one example of students who are fed up with your policies
and who are looking to UNISON to make a difference, but obviously the ability
of students to deal with hardship they face every day will be seriously hampered
by the negative and narrow-minded stance you personally have chosen to take.
ANS/RCN are working as a barrier to change and it is great that you have chosen
to share this fact with members who put faith in you. Hopefully you will reconsider
and work with UNISON to get the fairer deal that we surely deserve. Anyone
who after seeing Andy's blatent admission that ANS has no intention of listening
to its members can join UNISON by phoning FREEPHONE 08005979750. It would
appear that it will only be when students vote with their feet that the RCN
will listen to them. I hope this will lead to the RCN working constructively
with other unions to win a better deal for student nurses louise <lbrown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:00:07
(BST)
Im sorry I didnt mean to stir up a hornets nest!
I just wanted to whinge! My own politics are kind of muddled and i am deciding
wether or not to vote monster raving looney party or someone else! All i was
tying to say is that the unions that represent the student nurses should be
working both sides of the political spectrum and not be one sided. I dont
care wether yiou choose to vote Bill Clinton for president as long as he is
concerned about student Nurses. I feel that all of the unions are being particularly
innefective as per usual so it was just a general whinge. Be good and keep
up the fight VIVA LA REVALOUTION! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 19:43:39
(BST)
Message Correction I would just like to state that the
supposed message written by myself had absolutely nothing to do with me and
would like to clarify the following points: 1) I am not a conservative- infact
follow a very independent view of politics 2) Comments made re: Owain, NUS
UK are utter rubbish, have not met the guy as yet 3) Whoever dreamt up this
mail and put my name to it obviously does not know my real email address.
I will be mailing the webmaster of this site to have this innaccurate message
removed. If whoever has written this piece on my behalf wouild like to identify
themselves and talk to me directly to get my accurate views on any issue in
Nursing, I will gladly discuss them. But please whoever it is at least get
you facts straight next time!!!! Thanks Chris :o) Chris Headland RCN ANS (Wales)(Elect)
NUS PT Officer Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 19:21:08
(BST)Mike, people who know me, know that
I'm not pompous what I am is a realist. I'd love to think that we could return
to a salary and all its benefits but I know deep down it wont happen. I believe
that student nurses deserve better funding and I also believe that no student
should be forced ti finish their trianing due to hardship but at the end of
the day I am only looking to the future. As a Diploma student myself and also
the son of a nurse trained in the "old" way I know the meaning of excellence
as I have seen the respect my mother got over the years spent caring for people.
As for ambition, I came into nursing to care for people and I'll probably
remain at the bed side for many years doing what I do best. I also care for
student nurses and Iwant what is best. I've made it clear that I believe the
Bursary to be th ebest method of funding nurse education albeit at a higher
level, for ALL nursing students and have inbuilt mechanisms to provide extra
means tested allowances foe people with dependents,single parents etc. I also
believe that free creche facilities should be available for all students who
need them and I would also like to see nursing students accessing student
loans if necessary. I make no apology for not supporting a return to salaries
I just believe campaigning for an adequate bursary is the best way forward.
Andy McGovern - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 18:04:16
(BST)
Here here for The Tories I usually only read this and this is
the first time i have ever posted anything on the board. Number one -STOP
SLAGGING OFF RCN Two more things, i totally support Chris Headlands comments
on our links with the conservative party, i think they are vital to ensuring
we at the RCN get what we want. Yes they will privatise parts of our education
and parts of the NHS but it is what is needed to ensure it's survival and
get all these moaners and whingers Licked in to shape in the NHS. I also support
Andy Mcgoverns point on "all graduate" entry to our profession. This will
only be achieved through a Tory Government. Mike Phillips talks about Carers
and people being put off by degrees! well Mike what are they doing being Nurses
in the first place - let them be Health Care assisstants as that is where
the majority of "caring" takes place. And as for all you UNISON Members out
there- Get real, you are never going to get your campaign and if you really
want a salary then what on earth are you doing being Nurses? You are dragging
down the name of our proffession - go off and be Care assisstants and let
us at RCN get on with the real job. Go GO RCN and GO GO Andy Anne-marie O'Toole
<swinginganna@hotmail.com> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:57:18
(BST)
hi i'm a shocked newbie Hi i am a student in my second year
at University of East Anglia. I have just been directed to this site and to
be quite frank i am shocked to see how it has been used. I thought it would
be a nice constructive supportive chatroom. I am a member of ANS and i am
embarrassed by our Chair- Andy McGovern's Patronising manner on this web site
to both other ANS members and UNISON Members alike as if we don't understand
what a crap deal we are getting, as if he knows "oh so much better than us"
and "oh you are just kids - you just don't understand it do you?" - Why does
it not feel like you are on our side Andy? I voted for you. I happen to know
that UNISON do not wish to take us out of HIgher Education and i am starting
to worry that making Nursing an all Graduate Proffession is the master plan
of the RCN. How about all those caring people out there who are on diplomas
and are going to be great nurses but just are not cut out for a degree. My
mother is a fantastic nurse and trained "old Style" The idea of a degree would
have put her off. An all graduate status will turn us in to manager pen pushers
instead of hands on Caring Nurses. Maybe that is what you have ambitions for
Andy but do not try and foist this on the rest of us who care deeply about
our patients and work. I am also embarrassed by the fact we are as ANS members
linked to the Conservative Party, i was unaware of this. The other point i
would like to stress is that i can honestly say that at my University we have
an excellent relationship with our students' Union and they really support
us. ANS and UNISON Students work side by side and the majority of us up here
back UNISON's campaign for Salaries as do the students' Union. RCN/ANS have
organised no campaigns at all and every single campaigning issue up here has
been with UNISON and the students' Union. RCN just do not realise how wrong
they have got it this time. Fortunatley my cohort has a mind of it's own and
has not been swallowing the poisonous line that has been peddeled out by RCN
to us. I am getting angry just thinking about this. I feel loyal to RCN/ANS
as that is who i joined and i thought i may be able to campaign within RCN/ANS
to get them to change their policy on Salaries but now i see that even the
ANS Chair doesn't back us i am starting to wonder and if i can't see any improvement
soon then i fear i may have to leave and i am sure many will join me leaving
pompous RCN/ANS as the ancient dinousour i am fast realising it is. Mike Mike Phillips <mikephillips21@hotmail.com> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:44:02
(BST)
p****d off! I have just completed a shift at my
new placement - my mentor has spent all of 2 minutes with me and sent me to
help the auxillaries, I have been running errans to pharmacy for the other
staff nurses, cleaning their medicine trolleys and making their drinks! When
I asked to discuss my learning outcomes and objectives for the placement,
I was subjected to a cold glare and remarks such as 'when I've got time'.I
think I must have mistaken my role as student nurse for 'personal assistant'
for all members of staff on the ward - including the ward clerk. How am I
supposed to learn anything? When it comes to completing my competencies, it
is I who will look inadequate and it is I who will recieve a poor grade. As
every day passes I ask myself why I want to be a nurse, or is this going to
change when I qualify? I doubt it. Surley there must be other ways to earn
a living. The fact that I have a genuine interest in the care, safety and
well-being of other people is making my life a misery. All this for £2.50p/h?
Is it any wonder so many students are leaving their training?
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:41:47
(BST)First of all I would like to make it
clear that I am not associated with any political party and that my own interests
lie in the future of nursing and at teh the moment nurse education. Now I
know you wont like my answer Louise in Plymouth nor I suspect will any other
members of UNISON and I wish to make it clear that it my own opinion and not
that of the RCN or the ANS. I fully appreciate your comparison between seconded
students and direct entry students but the reality is that the agenda is already
set. Nursing alongside professions allied to medicine will stay in higher
education. Infact it is quite probable possibly inevitable that eventually
nursing will be an all graduate level entry profession (see Making a Difference
or whats happening Wales for evidence). To me teh salary vs. bursary issue
is acomplete non starter and what we should really be fighting for is to increase
and protect the current Diploma non means tested bursary and go further by
fighting for it to available to under graduate nursing students. If we don't
I can see a time when nursing students will be treated like all other PAMS
and be subjected to means testing and even greater hardship. A salary would
be ideal but lets face it does not make economic sense or put plainly the
government couldn't sfford it. It's gonna be hard enough to change the burasry
so let's be real and admit that the return to a salary just wont happen. Also
to Louise I don't see how pointing out that UNISON didn't turn up to a recruitment
day is throwing mud, I just thought as a supporter you may be interested.
Oh by the way thanks for letting us know the RCN didn't turn up in Plymouth
we will be looking into it. Fianlly lets get back on track Kris is right no
more playground stuff lets debate the issues we may not agree but it makes
life interesting Andy McGovern - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 16:51:26
(BST)
SLEEP OUTS Although i think doing the sllep outs
near to the election is a good idea, i realy do believe that action is needed
much sooner. I know the weather is getting bad but we really need to act now
- intstead of just talking about it. So how a bout a Friday night on 20th
october 2000. Even if the weather is crap it will only reflect our strength
and determination for what we believe in. It also gives us four weeks to get
ourselves and our respective unions into gear so we can work together. Please
tell me what you think....i am getting fed up with just talking about it.
Can a make a small point - not everyone in the rcn is opposed to student nurses
getting bursaries - i helped at the unison stand at my university to recruit
new students, and i asked the rcn officials if they would sign the unison
petition (bursary back to salary thingy) and they did and they wholeheartedly
agreed with the campaign *well who wouldn't - it is obviously all we are is
an extra pair of hands. This is the first day of my new term , we have 6 weeks
in placement and 6 weeks in uni - we have a 8 hour module concerning elderly
and a 4 hour concerning rehab (amongst many others), but we have a rehab placement.
I wonder why?! Could it be because our next placement is 12 weeks so we are
to be sent to elderly (ithink they are quite short staffed!) anne-marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 15:40:34
(BST)
IDIOTS THEY ARE ALL IDIOTS Having just finished visiting the RCN
website, and having read all the postings about whether or not Christine 'in
my day' Hancock actually deserves her huge pay packet, I feel like I am trying
to push sand uphill. I am astounded that no sooner does someone post something
criticising her and her inactivity then moments later, her personally selected
bodyguard of die-hard RCN activists leap into defend their glorious leader!
Its amazing despite the fact, and ill say it again because I've said it before,
the Student bursary has actually GONE DOWN since the sainted Hancock has taken
over. So despite the her bodyguards efforts I don't actually think that she
is worth her wage. I am still poor and getting poorer and whilst she has enjoyed
a pay raise the same cannot be said of me. Oh I got the pay raise allright
but 2.5% of sod all is still 2.5% of sod all! I just want to say this sucks
majorly, I love nursing, I love the job, I love the people I meet and work
with (well most of them) but I do not enjoy being treated like an idiot or
like some second class citizen. And too top it all the ENB have told me that
I actually need to do more nights. Why well they haven't told me that but
why would I want to know that I am only a nursing student after all I don't
need to be told anything! I FEEL LIKE A MUSHROOM.....KEPT IN THE DARK AND
FED ON SH#T! The tiny minuscule, feeble minded idiots who came up with this
should be made to do all the night shifts they want and when they are up to
their eyes in someone else's feaces then maybe they will realise what it is
like to be a student nurse. I just cant believe it.. isn't nursing facing
a recruitment crisis allready? They really do seem to be taking the piss.
So if anyone from the ENB is reading this I would like to say you are an IDIOT
and Nursing would be better off without the feeble-minded leadership like
yours Really quite annoyed - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 15:58:24
(BST)
Advice from an old soak... The advice I can give you is don't worry!
Enjoy your training because it will get serious enough in time any way. In
regards to clinical placements, just latch onto someone who you can learn
from, it doesn't matter if they are qualified or not and ask loads of questions!
If there is something that you don't know or don't understand then don't be
afraid of asking. In regards to the academic side read as much as possible
and start your assignments as soon as possible because whilst you are doing
clinical placements as well, the submission date arrives very quickly. But
most importantly get involved, decision are being made that will directly
affect you so get involved whether it be with the RCN/ANS or UNISON or even
the NUS. Nursing servants need a voice and it can only come from those who
are actually undergoing it. So don't become another one of the apathetic crowd,
stand out and make a difference. If you have anything that you want to know
about the academic side, or if you just want general advice then you can e-mail
me. All is left to say take it easy and don't let the b######s grind you down! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 12:39:50
(BST)
advice I start my training tomorrow to become
a nurse I was just wondering if anyone had any advice Tina - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 10:54:02
(BST)
Nights I had to do 4 weeks of night duty for
a placement. The last night I did I finished at 7.30 am on Christmas eve 1999.
I know of some in my class who had to do nights in the ITU wards here and
that meant they had to do 14, 12 hour shifts in the space of three weeks. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 22:55:03
(BST)
Well said there Louise How many more examples are we going
to have to see of students being taken the piss out of before we get rid of
the main reason why students are treated so unfairly. Being the lowest paid
members of staff in the NHS means, as Louise said, that its just so easy for
us to be ground down just that little bit further. An extra night here and
an extra night there, what's the difference? This sacred cow that is the bursary
and is held up as the be all and end all is now just well past its sell by
date. Its time for a salary for all students not just the few who manage to
get seconded by their NHS trust. Dominic Forristal
<dominic@unisonfree.net> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 19:37:12
(BST)
This just says it all All of this exchange about students
being even more used as cheap labour to fill staffing gaps just illustrates
the need to end for once and for all the exploitation we all face. The only
reason NHS trusts and now perhaps even the ENB see us as cheap labour is because
we are exactly that. The only way to deal with their 'temptation' is to make
sure we enjoy the same rights as other NHS staff i.e. salaried status. At
least then we would be paid for all the work we put into the health service.
Why is the bursary seen by some as such as a sacred cow - secondees seem to
be doing quite well - why couldn't we? Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 19:12:01
(BST)
Nights Is this night thing for real, or just
hear say????? I cannot believe that our uni's can possibly make us do 3 weeks
of nights per placement, as all my placements to date have been no longer
than 28 days period. Does anyone know the facts.............. I love working
nights as a HCA (on the bank) as I can usually get loads of studying done
I usually get paid for it though DON'T U THINK Daniel <dja199@soton.ac.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:13:46
(BST)
Poor Mel Don't just do Mel, do all the board
members. The chief executive at the ENB is Tony Smith CBE and you can email
views marked for his attention at link@enb.org.uk Ray Rowden - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:05:34
(BST)
Nights!!!! I'm glad to see we are all of the same
opinion about these bloody nights! so come on everyone email Mel at the ENB.....united
we stand! that address once more is..mchevannes@dmu.ac.uk Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:07:40
(BST)
Taking Action I have not been here for a couple of
days and I was pleased to see the amount if discussion that is going on. I
have spoken to people at my university and we thought about sleeping out in
Edinburgh on Thursday 1st of March and going to parliament on the Friday we
have to find out how far in advance the parliament is disbanded before the
election and stuff. If it is before this date then we will bring it forward.
If any one wants a copy of the petition then please E-mail me. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 16:19:45
(BST)
Write a message to say how bad
the ENB decision is If anybody at all and I mean anybody
has concerns about how this ENB directive will affect student Nurses then
please please drop MEL CHEVANNES a line at the address on the previous posting.
If everyone who visits this site posts at least one response to her or to
the other members of the ENB then maybe they will be made aware of just how
unamused we are by this idea NOT REALLY AMUSED - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 14:33:12
(BST)
I think it is time..... Mel Chevannes E-mail Address(es): mchevannes@dmu.ac.uk
Fearful Student at sh#t college - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 14:02:43
(BST)
I forgot... Sorry, I forgot to say, could some kind
soul transfer these details to the Rcn student site, I have got to dash. Thanks
Ray Ray Rowden - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:59:09
(BST)
More starch In my day we never were allowed to marry
and certainly, even the few shameful hussies who did, would never have allowed
THAT to go on. No, children should b neither seen nor heard as far as the
noble calling of nursing is concerned. Perhaps those weak willed fornicators
should put more starch in their bonnets and less in their husbands naughty
parts. It never happened in my day.............Flo....................................................................ps
have you tried Mrs Beaton's excellent household management book, the servants
swear by it Matron - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:59:05
(BST)
ENB and nights The ENB is up for extinction at some
time in the future so are unlikely to rock any boats, but thought I would
let you know who sits on it. Can I suggest that as many students as possible
flood these people with mail at their work place and let them know what you
think of their decision. You will note that there are no seats for students
on their board! Chair, Ron De Witt, CEO, Kings College Hospital, London. Pam
Charlwood, CEO, Avon Health Authority, Bristol. Mel Chevannes, Leicester Uni.
Pat Oakley, Director of a consultancy company called Practice Makes Perfect.
Jeff Thompson, A professor at Bath Uni. Jan Stevens, Director of Nursing,
Hereford Hospitals NHS Trust. Contact addresses can be found on the net for
all of them. Make their postbag as busy as hell, it might make them reflect! Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:53:44
(BST)
Suffer ye O little children Why is it that during their training,
Student Nurses are obliged to travel the inner cities or run-down council
estates with Health Visitors, to find poverty. If it is poor kids you want,
go home with one of you classmates who is a parent. I want to say proud but
that is all to stereotypical, "we 'ad nowt, but 'appen we were reet proud
like". No, I think the question is, how many Student Nurse parents took their
kids to f###ing Tuscany this year, for me it was a caravan in f###ing Tenby Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:47:01
(BST)
P.S. especially in light of this night shifts
THEY ARE TAKING THE PISS!!!!(excuse the language)! Lynette - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:39:06
(BST)
Ranting on again! Well thankyou Donna, you opened a passage
in which I could then speak through. Both you and Anne-Marie speak of the
problems with the funding. If my funding was enough my husband wouldn't have
had to give up work to look after our children (child care costs being silly
as I mentioned before, for three children). For that I get £2100 I have felt
guilty about whining on about money when I know I probably get more than the
majority of people that visit this site. I do know that it still is not enough
to support three children and my husband. I know also that I am certainly
not allright jack and that no other student Nurses are, because we are not
just suffering from low pay we undervalued also. I will not stop with the
protesting until the Government can trouble themselves to put their trust
in all of us and invest in us. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:36:26
(BST)
Used and abused (again) Having also just seen the proposal that
students now do at least three weeks of nights per placement I have to add
my voice to the growing crowd. I have to ask the ENB one thing DO WE LOOK
F#####G STUPID? Well at least we now know where we stand we are nothing more
than a resource to be exploited. Boy oh boy which Rocket scientist in the
ENB came up with this idea? My advice to whomsoever came up with this idea...
DON'T EVER GET SICK IN MY HOSPITAL!!! NOT AMUSED - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:34:33
(BST)
Who wants a fight? Is anybody else feeling just marginally
p####d off about the ENB's proposal about wanting students to do more night
shifts? (Re. Andy McGovern, RCN website). I cannot believe this is happening.
Anybody that was at the RCN ANS conference will know that we voiced our opinions
loud and clear that student exploitation at the moment is clearly at a level
that is unacceptable. The RCN hasn't given any sort of response to this (surprise,
surprise) but what does everybody else think? I'm absolutely f###### thrilled!
I find it hard enough already to fit in my bank shifts without this to complicate
things. Are they trying to get more students to give up the course? If they
are I think that this is the greatest plan in the history of mankind. Is it
me or does anybody else think that I am being a little sensitive on this issue?
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:13:08
(BST)
Shhh, don't look now but... It's true, no one can see it but me
it seems! I feel like the person that saw the person that really shot Kennedy,
or an alien abductee! Apparently, as far as I can tell, nursing students still
get crap wages, they still get the piss taken out of them with rostering and
the nature of the tasks required of them. But now, they are going to be used
to save bank qualified costs on the wards, by covering night shifts. Learning
opportunities nil! What is the appropriate response? The word no, loudly and
clearly and who is going to say it? Apparently no-one. I am no Steven Hawking,
but 'at least three weeks per placement' is really not a lot different from
'a maximum of 12 shifts'. So what is being done? I would heartily recommend
students 'work to rule' and get on with some vigorous observing until the
wards and those a#######s at the ENB realise that enough is enough. Meanwhile,
as I write I should imagine some Innuit on the Great Greenland glacier is
being awoken by a hospital human resources manager looking for potential nurses.
Is anyone else as mad as me, or am I still seeing things doctor? Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 12:31:47
(BST)
Now Now children... How are we expected to achieve anything
when the two main unions that represent students and Nurses are involved in
a mud slinging contest? Shades of the schoolground here children! In response
to the points raised by the UNISON corner, yes students are annoyed by what
we perceive as foot dragging by the RCN, yes I believe as do a number of my
colleagues that some people in the RCN are more concerned with increasing
their public profile and collecting their wage packet then they are in fighting
for an improvement in the pay and conditions for Nurses of all types. However
I do not believe that this is the time, place or forum for political point
scoring from one union rep to another. The main reason I didnt join UNISON
was because I had no wish to support unwillingly a particular political party.
I believe that all Unions should be concentrating on lobbying all political
parties to achieve their aims and not seek to become bedfellows with just
one for whatever reasons. Now that I have stated just how annoyed as a student
I am at both Unions, the RCN and UNISON perhaps we can return to some measure
of normality and stop insulting each others politics? Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 11:48:35
(BST)
Proposed changes to nurse training Can someone please help a disillusioned
ex-P.2000 student with some relevant advice on how he gets back in to complete
his training?. I have made so many attempts to return, but I am getting nowhere.
I got as far as taking the branch finals before quitting the course, due to
personal reasons. Now I read about this change to pre-registration courses,
I wonder where I fit in. This new course talks about accrediting prior learning,
I managed to get some acknowledgment that I am entitled to a certificate in
health studies , but it means nothing!. I have applied for health care assistant
posts, only to be told that I did not get an interview because I don't hold
NVQ II or III, now I work in a nursing home, and they want me to take NVQ
II because it is a requirement of the job, so my prior training and 20 years
of experience in nursing amounts to zero. Give a thought to those, like me,
who have failed, yet feel that they have a lot to offer, but are held back,
and if anyone out there has any information, I will be glad of it. Mark Marsh <Slaterminnie@aol.com> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 11:38:46
(BST)
Mug Slinging Ray - I agree that its important for
RCN and Unison to work together on combating student hardship and your contribution
earlier that perhaps there should be a joint lobby of Parliament sounds good.
Its important to note though that it was Andy McGoven who started the mud
slinging yesterday when I asked a simple question about a central part of
RCN's opposition to Unison's campaign for salaried status. That was if secondees
can receive a wage and not be reduced to an extra pair of hands why would
the rest of us on the diploma be if we too received a salary. The problem
at the moment is that the RCN/ANS position is more defined by what they are
opposed to rather than being in favour of anything - their opposition to salaried
status. The Unison/NT survey shows clearly the RCN/ANS is out of touch with
students AND registered staff - hence the anger you refer to. All the time
the profession is divided we will get nowhere - Unison is here whether Andy
like's it or not. Andy - all I ask is that you listen to your own members
and work constructively with your colleagues from other unions - if you throw
mud it will be thrown straight back. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 09:42:49
(BST)
Out of hours work Sarah - I've heard nothing about this
from my uni but am returning to college from placement next week so there
may be 'good news' waiting for us. I personally get so much more out of placements
than from being stuck in a classroom but there definitely needs to be a balance
here. We certainly aren't here to be used as cheap labour to cover the shift
other don't want. On my last placement I did exactly the same shifts as my
mentor which meant quite a few out of hours work but the need to shadow your
mentor needs to be included with protection to ensure we are just 'an extra
pair of hands'. The unison survey in NT earlier this month showed how exploited
we all are - we all deserve a salary for the hard work we all put into our
training of that there can be no doubt. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 09:28:35
(BST)
NUS I feel I have to respond to the postings
tonight. To Anna, who seems to want to take a shot at Andy, may I say that
for her to suggest that the Rcn is somehow comparable with the BNP is gross
and offensive. Christine Hancock, Rcn Gen Sec was the FIRST major NHS union
leader to publicly accept the problems of institutional racism in health services
after the Lawrence Inquiry. As an Rcn member I am proud that Christine has
continued to raise this issue on a number of platforms. Andy has only just
taken over as ANS chair, with a new committee and student council member,
Suren. The ANS are having a key strategy meeting in November. I know, from
emails I have had from students that the new ANS committe is well aware of
the anger felt by students. Give Andy, Suren and the new committee a chance
to set out their stall. Maggie, from UNISON is a great woman and does a good
job in her staff side role, but remember that the Rcn, as a key player in
staff side, supports Maggie in her staff side role. With the issues facing
nursing lets not get into a UNISON v RCN battle. We are both unions, we must
both fight for nurses and respect our differences. As for the NUS, I can only
ask how great have they been? We now have students in England and Wales saddled
with charges for study, yet in Scotland, no fees apply. Some track record
on which to lecture the Rcn then! The NUS has also been the training ground
for a good number of new labour lieutenants who are now part of the control
freak tendency in Millbank, and I have to confess that I am a labour party
member. The Rcn may have its problems, but it consists of its members, all
310,000 of them. We will remain an organisation that is there for nurses,
please do not make offensive remarks about our capacity to represent nurses
and nursing. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 23:34:51
(BST)
Warning our university has informed us that
the ENB has advised them that all student nurses should extend their experience
of night duty. As a result of this we now have to work 3 weeks of nights as
part of each and every placement! is this happening everywhere? and if so,do
we have to do them? I mean its not as if we are not exploited enough is it?
now we have to do nights and with no extra pay Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 23:25:48
(BST)
Glasgow Evening Times More nurses forced into a second job
By Vivienne Nicoll THE number of nurses forced to work two jobs to make ends
meet has jumped to nearly one in three and some are working as waitresses
or in pubs to make ends meet. The shocking statistic is revealed in a new
survey by health care union Unison, which shows that 81 percent of nurses
believe they are not well paid. Unison´s Scottish organiser for health, Jim
Devine, said: "Last year, for the first time ever, more nurses left the profession
than were recruited. The average age of a trained nurse is 47 and our survey
highlights the reason why." Mr Devine added: "It a matter of great concern
that we have staff who take up a second job just for their day to day living.
"We face a major problem with recruitment and retaining nurses unless we deal
with the problem." As much as 79 percent of nurses have considered leaving
their job, with more than half saying they are seriously job-hunting. Over
half said the number of patients they deal with has increased while around
the same number complained of staff shortages. Around 85 percent claimed their
workload had increased, while two- thirds believe patient expectations have
risen. Unison is planning to submit the survey to its pay review body and
is calling for a significant increase and a change in the pay grading system.
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:41:33
(BST)
Nursing Times Nurses have demanded 'substantial' pay
rises from the government in next year's public sector salary awards. Unions
say special attention should be given to the pay rates of non-registered nursing
staff and to recognise the increasing responsibilities taken on by senior
nurses. They have called on the Pay Review Body, who will make its recommendations
to the government on wage rises for the public sector in Spring next year,
for the need to make improve nurses' pay to ensure increased recruitment,
address retention and build morale among nurses, midwives and health visitors
in all grades. In their submission to the Review Body, the unions highlighted
the low pay on non-registered nurses, who can earn as little as £8,225 per
year. They have called for senior nurses, who earn over £30,000 a year, to
be given pay rises to compensate for the extra work they are expected to do.
The NHS plan, published in July, included plans to increase the power of senior
nurses and heralded the creation of "modern matrons" in charge of hospital
wards. Nurses will be given new powers to prescribe drugs, treat minor wounds
and discharge patients, as well as controlling budgets for conditions on wards.
Maggie Dunn, Chair of Staff Side, said: 'Nursing staff are continuing to work
harder than ever, and are taking on new and more demanding roles and responsibilities.
'It's vital that the PRB builds on the pay awards of the last two years to
ensure that the NHS continues to recruit and retain experienced nursing staff.
The NHS has to increase the number of skilled nursing staff if it is to achieve
high quality patient care.'
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:35:28
(BST)
From The Times today Nurses demand pay parity with police
recruits BY HELEN RUMBELOW, MEDICAL REPORTER NURSES demanded a "substantial"
pay rise yesterday to attract recruits on the same salary as new police officers.
Their unions also claimed that senior nurses should be paid more to reward
them for their greater status and roles under the Government's health service
reforms. The shortage of nurses forces hospitals to be increasingly dependent
on hiring nursing staff from overseas, despite the above-inflation pay rise
that British staff have been paid in the past two years. Maggie Dunn, chairwoman
of Staff Side, an umbrella group of nursing unions, pointed out that the hiring
of large numbers of overseas nurses indicated that wages had to be improved.
Nurses' representatives highlighted the difference between their starting
salaries and the pay packet of police recruits. A newly qualified staff nurse
starts on a salary of £14,890, which is more than £2,000 below the starting
wage of a police constable. New recruits must undergo three years' training
to qualify to be a nurse, while the training period for a police constable
is two years, although in both professions training involves long periods
of supervised work with the public. Nursing staff, moreover, face slower career
progression than police, they said. Newly registered staff nurses would advance
to £16,445 four years after joining the National Health Service. On promotion,
they might reach £19,220, the top salary for an experienced staff nurse. A
police constable, by contrast, would advance without promotion to £21,567,
four years after completing the initial training. The independent Pay Review
Body is to make recommendations on nurses' pay early next year; these are
then decided upon by ministers. The NHS reforms announced in July heralded
the creation of "modern matrons" who would take control of hospital wards,
and many duties would be devolved to nurses, especially in GPs' surgeries
and in Accident & Emergency departments. The reforms also pledged to increase
the number of nurses by 20,000 in four years - an attempt to overcome the
present shortfall of 17,000. An annual poll earlier this year of priorities
that matter to nurses showed for the first time the recruitment crisis has
overtaken pay as an issue. Ms Dunn said: "Nursing staff are continuing to
work harder than ever and are taking on new and more demanding roles and responsibilities.
"It is vital that the Pay Review Body builds on the pay awards of the last
two years to ensure that the NHS continues to recruit and retain experienced
nursing staff." But Lord Denham, a health minister, pointed out yesterday
that nurses' pay had increased by at least 17 per cent since 1997 and that
some staff had enjoyed a 25 per cent rise. The Department of Health stated
last night that part of the reform of the NHS would see a huge increase in
the number of nurses. To this end, it said, it had to "carefully balance"
the issues of better rewards for nurses with the cost of paying extra salaries.
The department also said that a lot of the nursing shortages were a result
of the differences in the cost of living across the country, and that it was
planning to introduce pay commensurate with regions. This move would extend
the concept of London-weighting to all of Britain's more expensive towns.
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:32:43
(BST)
Sleep Out I've just spoken to our local Unison
nursing student officer and there will be something organised that ALL students
can get involved in if they want because the issue of student hardship is
far too important to leave to the devices of one group - we must all work
together. Everyone - get in touch with your local UNISON/RCN branch and see
if they are prepared to support some kind of local action. From what everyone's
said there's easily enough to make sure the whole country is covered. I don't
see why though some need to get into such detail - our message needs to be
crystal clear. If seconded students can receive a wage and not be turned into
an extra pair of hands why would we? Andy - still waiting for your response
after your message you posted to "TO: L.Brown Plymouth." We can all do without
that kind of stuff - let's work together instead. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:40:39
(BST)
Nailing ANS/RCN Lies Hi Mr McGovern and Chris Headland, Unbeknown
to you I have been checking out various websites recently and would like to
put you both right on a few points about some of the mis-leading propaganda
you have been banting around. Which I advise ALL Nursing students to take
note of so they are able to distinguish what are complete lies in the future.
My Knowledge of RCN and UNISON is pretty comprehensive as is my knowledge
of Nursing Education. I wrote the joint Charter for Nursing and Midwifery
education whilst I was at the National Union of Students with UNISON, RCN
& RCM. I currently sit on the Department of health's Forum for Healthcare
students alongside all and organise the joint NUS/Nursing Student events.
At none of these events has any student come out in support of RCNs position
on the Salary as put forward by Chris Headland one of your Grand Leaders of
ANS. Andy McGovern, your Grand Grand Leader may talk about campaigning and
if they are serious about this then they should stop wasting their time on
the ANS chatroom and get on and do some campaigning, like those of us in UNISON.
Points I'd like to make - In NUS, I was completely unbiased about the whole
UNISON/RCN thing. Mainly because I didn't know about it or understand it.
I spent two years writing the Charter only to have it ruined when ANS tried
to organise a launch of it (whilst I was on maternity leave, so I didn't know
about it)with William Hague. They also put other organisations names to the
launch who didn't know about it. When everyone found out the whole thing was
cancelled and many people pulled out of that backing. Our so called Joint
campaign for decent educational and professional standards in Nursing was
ruined by ANS in one fell swoop. Another aspect of joint campaigning gone
wrong was when every single organisation backed the Government's position
to allow Health Care Assistants to be seconded to the Nursing Diploma, all
except RCN/ANS. Fortunately the rest of us won and it resulted in the final
straw for NUS who immediately voted to not recognise or work with the RCN.
This means if you are an RCN member you are not entitled to the double protection
of both nus and your organisation, only UNISON and The RCN can provide that
now. Another example of so called Joint working was when Universities were
Charging students for their Uniforms. RCN/ANS, refused to back our campaign,
we were calling for this practice to be abolished and other organisation were
supporting us and in the end we not only won but got a refund for every student.
Now with this fantastic well supported campaign, by organisations and MPs
alike as well as the Majority of RCN/ANS student members, you again are poo
pooing it. Students do not be fooled in to thinking they really think the
UNISON campaign is bad, they haven't come up with anything better and if you
click on www.rcn.org.uk and go on the
student online forum, you will see how hated the RCN leadership is hated for
their stance on the UNISON campaign, you will also see real members getting
really angry about Christine Hancock. The only reason they speak badly about
the UNISON Campaign is because they didn't think of it first and it is our
campaign. We have time and time again offered the olive branch to work together
on this because we really want to see it happen. Do not be fooled either that
thinking that any campaign RCN/ANS come up with now will be well supported,
apart from the Nursing Standard which is RCN's Mouth piece anyway, national
Media and Local Media support our campaign, as do MP's and other Organisations,
the main one being NUS who refuse for many reasons now to work or support
RCN/ANS nursing students. The only other people we ever voted to ban were
two religious militia groups, Macdonalds, Nestle and the BNP, which shows
you what high regard RCN is held in these days. Anna D'Arcy Former National
Union of Students, National Spokesperson for Nursing and Midwifery Education. Anna D'Arcy <a.darcy@unison> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:40:24
(BST)
£sd Roger is right to raise the issue of
a bursary/grant which actually allows the student the right to live and reflect
the "work" element whilst on the course. This is, by any international standard
a rich nation. Trouble is, the government, in their recent evidence to the
pay review body are crowing about record numbers of students entering nursing.
(See www.doh.gov.uk and click on latest) What they fail to point out is the
high attrition rates from nursing courses. If they are going to get the extra
thousands of nurses promised in the NHS plan they sure are going a funny way
about it. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:22:15
(BST)
Still waiting Andy...... So after those contributions we can
take it that RCN members consider their subscriptions as being money well
spent?! Andy - I can hardly wait for your response to my question but I'm
not holding my breath. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:19:15
(BST)
'The Blood Donor' starring.... Dear All I have been thinking since
the momentous conference about nothing other than the points we tried to raise
and the pints we did raise! The '26' problem is one that besieges my mind
a lot. At the none too tender age of 35, I have trouble remembering 26 but
I do remember that it did not appear to cost any more than 25, or less than
27. That said, I know from experience that by the time I was 26 I was already,
as the banks say, servicing several debts and despite earning a relatively
handsome salary, needed to be wary. I cannot imagine that I could have started
this course at 32 if I had not had the additional finances available to the
mature (and fuller figured) student. However, it is not unreasonable to assume
that younger people cannot have existing debts, given that banks will lend
anything to anyone today. I am left feeling that ALL student nurses should
receive financial provision to the extent that regardless of age or existing
fiscal encumbrances, they should be able to afford the course. I have been
amazed by some of the information about other courses that I gathered at the
ANS conference. The idea of limiting the number of days committed to shifts
and the idea that some colleges will not allow students to be routinely used
and abused as glorified bank staff. Amazing! The thorny problem of dependants
and partners seems to be filled with pitfalls. The system does seem to punish
those with children and the laughable provision of childcare facilities is
an insult. Given the ridiculous lengths most wards are obliged to go to employ
part-time 'returnees', the struggles that student nurses are required to put
up with are unacceptable. The fact is that there should be a free (yes FREE)
crèche/kindergarten available for those training within every hospital/healthcare
setting. Additional funds should be available to meet the cost of raising
a family, and the existence of another wage should not condemn that family
to poverty by virtue of a dual income. It is laughable that as a student,
you work with so many of the disadvantaged groups within society, and are
taught to empathise and understand their plight. In reality, many have a far
higher standard of living than the students caring for them. The free prescriptions
and housing and various other benefits available because of their poverty,
mean that they actually 'earn' more than most diploma students and definitely
all degree students. Then when you consider the effort that government puts
into NOT paying student nurses and TO paying the tactically unemployed, well
I find it grates a wee bit. The mechanism for paying students who are parents
will require a little thought, and given this Governments love affair with
vouchers, some care. I cannot remember the military model but it had built
in bonuses for the cost of prodigy. Perhaps that would be a good place to
start. ON A MORE TERRIFYING NOTE!!!! Was anyone aware that not satisfied with
doing NOTHING for U.K. student nurses to justify her VAST wage and recent
PAY RISE, the Sainted Hancock is about to stand unopposed for the chairwomanship
of the I.C.N.. This will be voted on during the bun-fight in Copenhagen (I
wonder if she is going by ferry and sleeping in her car) and will then be
able to receive a vastly inflated wage for working tirelessly for her OWN
SELF-ADVANCEMENT. Not that I begrudge her what is now £89,000 a year. So in
the meantime, I shall try and fire my tiny lizard-sized brain into action
and do some sums on the family question. Take care all of you, especially
those whose party politics did not stop them partying harder than the rest!
(PS the last vestiges of our pre-mammalian past are described as the Lizard
part of the brain, it is the bit that makes you do all the easy but useful
stuff, breathe, walk..) Rog Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:23:18
(BST)
what are we paying her for????? Did any of you goto the ANS conference,
well I was the loud one from Southampton. Why did Christine Hancock bother
turning up she didn't answer any of her Questions or she just skimmed issues,
I don't think that justifies £85,000 DO YOU??????? Stuart Rotman <sjr1198@soton.ac.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:03:38
(BST)
WORKING TOGETHER! Andy - As I said earlier we all need
to work together if we are to get a better deal for nursing & midwifery students.
If you want to know the RCN didn't bother turning up when I started my course
last September but I would prefer that we could work constructively together.
I did notice though that you were unwilling to answer my question on if seconded
students haven't been reduced to an extra pair of hands why would I be if
I too received a decent income? Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 14:32:42
(BST)
To :L Brown Plymouth It's nice to know UNISON are fighting
for you down in Plymouth, they're don't seem interested up here at Keele Uni.
I've just done a recruitment day for the RCN to attract new students and UNISON
haven't even bothered to turn up!!!! Not that I'm bothered obviously it suits
me fine. As the incoming Chair of the RCN ANS however I would appreciate it
if you would judge the new committee on its achievements in 12 months time.
I appreciate that the ANS does not actually represent your interests, but
I'm sure like every other politically aware student (and there aint many of
us about), you'll be waiting with bated breath to see if the new ANS has any
bite!! Personally, I believe the new ANS will listen to ANS members and will
take action on the issues that matter but we need everyones input so feel
free to email me and my colleagues together we can make a difference. Finally,
with regard to the sleep out personally I support it and I feel certain that
the ANS exec also supports the principle. Keep up the fight and if I can help
email me. Andy McGovern Andy McGovern <andy_mm_99@yahoo.com> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:55:05
(BST)
Sleep outs I totally agree with Donna - I know
how you feel. I am a struggling single mum, my daughter is almost 4, and although
she is not demanding I always put her first. Well I am sure most parents would
be in agreement with me here. As to the sleep outs - would it be viable for
students with children to go along to the sleep out for an hour or so just
to offer their support. perhaps even taking their children with them (though
I realise it is unfair to involve our children in this issue - but it does
underline the point regarding affordable childcare. We really must make a
stand and ensure this sleep out occurs. My local branch of UNISON have agreed
to help with travelling expenses and refreshments for students travelling
from Huddersfield - and I am almost sure that I can find ten students willing
participate. Have other students managed to get support from their local RCN/UNISON
branches? I know it is easy to feel despondent and hopeless with this issue
as other students are not always supportive - "its not going to effect me"
attitude. Personally if I do not benefit from trying to get a wage/livable
bursary from this campaign, but future student nurses it will still be worth
all our efforts. Down with apathy. Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:05:03
(BST)
Having our cake and eating it.... The diferent rates for students depending
on when we were born I agree Donna is just taking the piss - I'm 24 and have
noticed that although the NHS receives a discount for my work - I don't seem
to receive a discount for my rent, food, bills etc. As for the childcare whilst
NHS staff often have some provision (inadequate) we get no support. When its
suits 'them' we are students i.e. no access to benefits and then we are told
we are workers when it suits 'them' and are not allowed student loans. Those
who managed to get seconded on a wage are so much better off than the rest
of us, not that I hold it against them because its great that at least some
of us aren't having to struggle like the rest of us. Shouldn't we all be able
to get a decent wage? I'm really confused about the RCN position about salaried
status. I've heard all about that 'extra pair of hands' lark but the example
of seconded students seems to me at least to deal with that argument - they
haven't been transformed into an extra pair of hands and are treated the same
as diploma students. We need to speak with one voice when we have our sleep
outs - isn't a salary a sensible idea? Although some seem to think unison
is a little 'strident' they are the only ones to be willing to support us
all. In NT the overwhelming majority of students and registered staff support
that demand - why don't we go for that and aim for mid October..... Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 11:34:01
(BST)
Hear Hear! Well said Donna! I am in total agreement,
I'm also in exactly the same position. I start on Monday, leave my job today
and am losing £500 per month as of next week! I just with the 'powers that
be' would take notice of what people are saying and just act. Believe me,
they wouldn't have the crisis in nursing numbers if they paid the students
(and qualified for that matter) the wage that we really deserve! OK moaning
over, I'd love to get involved in the sleep-outs, but with 2 young children,
its impossible for me, but I am 150% behind you all! Heather <leheluja@aol.com> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 10:09:06
(BST)
Fed-up before I've even started! Hello everybody, I am due to start my
DipHe in 10 days time. I read this forum regularly and find it a great source
for information. The sleep-outs are a great idea - but don't forget that there
are those of us with children who may find it impossible to join in, however
much the idea appeals.... My gripe though (as I've posted before) is the lack
of affordable child-care. Given the fact that the government has been targeting
people like me for it's recruitment program, i.e. early 30's with family and
a husband/partner with a steady income blah blah, you would think that they
would appreciate that child-care is going to be a major issue? OHHH.. silly
me, of course not - because that would be too much like having my cake and
eating it! I would like to make it clear that I am not putting my needs before
nursing students without children, just that it is another case of "I'm alright
Jack" mentallity from the powers-that-be. To say that £4,805 p/a is adequate
for anybody who is working is insulting enough. For the government to then
add £605 because I'm over 26yrs (why is the cost of living considered to be
less if you are 25yrs, 24yrs, 23yrs etc.????) but to then state that if you
are a single parent you may claim an extra £1,800p/a BUT NOT the mature student
addition, AAAAARGGGHHH, you get my point, don't you? I don't want to state
that as married mother with 2 children that I deserve any more allowances
than anybody else, but even a lizard with half a brain would realize that
child-care costs money - all of my bursary actually! - I am in agreement with
everybody else who submits to this forum, that student nurses deserve a MUCH
better deal whatever their circumstances. To have children was MY choice,
so I really don't see why other people should be made responsible for them.
I, DONNA made the choice to go in to nursing because I WANTED TO. While there
are people like us who are willing to put-up with being treated no better
than those who choose NOT to work, (those who rely on the state for their
Nintendo 64's, digital T.V. and their 10 children, i.e those who see no reason
to work when they can get it all for nothing from the state and demand a bigger
house from the council when they run out of space - not the genuine unemployed),
anyway (sorry about that) while the NHS can still recruit under these circumstances,
they WILL have the upper-hand. Unrealisitic as this may sound, I truly believe
that anybody who is due to start this term should withdraw from their course
stating that "due to my financial situation, I regret that I am unable at
this time, to undertake a nursing diploma. I deeply regret this, but hope
that this will not affect any future decision to 'employ' me on another DipHe
course as I really feel that I would be an asset to health profession as a
dedicated and caring individual who would really like the chance 'to make
a difference'. I really believe that I could make an excellent nurse, but
wihtout another 5k per year I no longer see this as a possibilty. Yours sincerely
etc. etc. OK BACK TO REALITY, WHERE ARE THE SLEEP-OUTS? I'M COMING! Love and
best wishes to all who stick the 3yrs, Donna. xxx Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net> - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 03:20:06
(BST)
ACTIVE TIMES I am in the London area as I have said
before. Next week I will be seeing my colleagues at my university. I don't
know if they are interested in doing anything, as it goes I think that the
apathy that many have spoken of maybe likely, however I will attempt to rattle
their rusty cages on the subject. I am anxious to hear an actual date in which
we can focus on for the day of ACTION as it has been said before: we need
to act together on the same day to really make our point. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 20:16:22
(BST)
Sleep Outs I've just found this site - its great
to hear of other students around the country wanting to do things.A group
of us had a sleep out last April in Bristol which went really well - loads
of local nurses came out to support us and the event was heavily covered in
the press. We even managed to get into the Nursing Times although we did notice
that the standard didn't give it one coloumn inch. I must admit my experience
of getting support from my union has been completely different from all those
who expressed frustration at 'Handcocks half hour' at ANS conference. Almost
all of us the The University of Plymouth are members of Unison and they couldn't
have done more to support our campaigns on travelling expenses and student
hardship. It makes a real difference to have someone working for you - not
against you. I just don't understand why you would consider giving money to
an organisation that isn't prepared to support you on issues that matter to
you. Enough of that - if we can link in together with other students around
the country that would be great - we have a few tricks planned for October
so if anyones interested in coming down to Exeter, Bristol or Plymouth get
in touch. Maybe we could have stuff going on all around the country - we certainly
need to all work together regardless of which union we choose to join. Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk> - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 17:35:18
(BST)
Sleep Outs What Nursing Student's are saying to
us is they want to continue the protests and if anything want us to step them
up, but feel isolated. We have used "Sleep Outs" since the early 1990's (London,
Leicester, Derby,Northampton, York, UWE) to raise public awareness of nursing
students local and national grievances, most have had at least some limited
success, all secured television coverage which is vital. At Greenwich we organised
the vote for strike action by nursing students in the nurses home which stopped
the evictions. If we are to now move forward to a national day of action,
including sleep outs to secure local and regional coverage we need joint working
and a broad based campaign with a platform agreeable to the majority (i.e.)
student poverty, affordable accommodation, travel expenses, equalities issues
and no doubt others. We need to build from the bottom, we must have at least
ten people in every University willing to do something and we need to secure
resources to fund leaflets, posters, stickers, badges etc. Timing will also
be critical we need to build up morale locally and head for a national day.
When do we feel is a good time to head for, remembering that the general election
will still likely to be May 1st 2001. Regards Michael Walker <m.m.walker@Unison.co.uk> - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 13:03:28
(BST)Just an idea, but with all this talk
of sleep outs, aren't there any student nurses either in Brighton or prepared
to travel to Brighton for a certain party conference next week. I think a
group of student nurses sleeping on the pavement outside the Grand Hotel may
attract someone's attention? Cherie - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 01:46:48
(BST)
Rcn ballots Students on this site might like to
see the RCN site, the thread is MEMBERS ISSUES, take a look! To Angela I say
good luck, I have had a supportive e-mail from UNISON who clearly would like
to work with the RCN on student issues. To Kris, hang on in there, if I win
the RCN Presidency I will work with all of you and the ANS to get some change.
If I lose, I will still work with you, because these issues bloody well matter.
(Apologies to the RCN if this is too "political").
<ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 23:55:26
(BST)
Those pesky students... I have to write that I am ashamed to
be a member of De Montfort at the moment. Not through anything that the college
has done but because of the apathy shown by my colleagues. I mentioned the
fact that some of the student nurses I have been in contact with were trying
to organise a sleep out to protest at the amount of money student nurses receive,
and I bet you can guess what sort of response I received......exactly not
alot! Talk about apathetic or should I say pathetic! It is exactly this sort
of well I doesn't affect me so I don't give a damn attitude that pervades
nursing.. Well I am slightly disheartened but still the fight goes on! Anyone
got any news that will cheer me up? Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 22:07:11
(BST)
Sleep Outs I did mention a possibility of Leeds/Manchester
but the idea is to have the sleep outs and then march to the parliaments/assemblies.
......And as far as dates go I have spoken to some one from unison who has
organised these in the past and as getting near winter we have thought about
march/april next year these things take alot of organising we need to get
funds for buses to get people there and advertising an stuff. If we are going
to have this it needs to be organised properly and well so have patience people
and we will take them by storm....P.S if we wait till next spring it will
be near the general election they (the government) will not like that. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 20:09:26
(BST)
I'm back! Just been for a long weekend in London
and feel that I have to correct all the criticism about the dome. It was excellent.
I thoroughly enjoyed myself and would recommend it to anyone, so if you have
been put off by all the bad publicity, then give it a chance! I guarantee
you will have a great day! London eye was excellent also....... OK, enough
of all that irrelevant nonsense - what is happening with these sleepouts?
Will there be one for Lancashire? Angela, you only mentioned 5 sites? Also,
when is the proposed date? Can't wait to take part! Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com> - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 17:26:26
(BST)
Hi Student Nurses I'm a student nurse at South Bank University........like
playing squash and chess.........and making friends....also sing a bit and
act....Looking forward to Jim Carrey's .." Me, myself & I rene.. Allan Blewitt <afdblewitt@hotmail.com> - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 17:12:40
(BST)
RCN are you saying the RCN was not interested
in helping student nurses to increase their bursary? I am shocked! Anne-Marie - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 12:55:37
(BST)
RCN ANS Just a few lines to say Hi to the people
I met at the conference. Anybody who couldn't make it, you didn't miss much!
I have to say that it was a huge disappointment to me personally. I was under
the impression the the RCN were there to represent me, obviously not. I have
to agree with Kris, the "in my day" line was very much the theme of the weekend.
Before, I thought that constructive talks with the RCN was the way to go in
getting things changed for the better. Unfortunately I have been kidding myself!
I also thought that student hardship had been around for a while, but it almost
seemed as if the RCN had never heard "such rot" before. Anyway on a MUCH lighter
note, Saturday night was f*#%&ng brilliant! Had a great time with all the
games and thanks to everyone for taking part and making it such a hit. Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 22:08:00
(BST)
petrol I have heard a rumour that the petrol
blockade may be starting again, this time the actual drivers may facilitate
it. So it may be a good idea to fill up. Please note it is only a rumour so
my information could be wrong. Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:28:33
(BST)
OOOOPPPPSS Sorry I forgot I think we would need
one in Belfast too. Angela Smith - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 22:35:58
(BST)
Sleep outs I have just been to our first official
student association meeting. I put the idea of the sleep outs to our association
president and he has agreed that i can organise the Scottish protest from
our uni in Aberdeen. So know I need other people to organise one for Cardiff
one for London and one for possibly the Manchester/Leeds area. That would
give us five individual sites. If anyone is interested I would love to hear
from you. The other thing is a social work student is wondering if social
work students would be welcome. I personally do not have a problem with them
joining in. They are in the same predicament as us. One friend of mine has
been sent all the way from Aberdeen to Hull for three months on placement.
Did you Know that social work students do not get expenses? That means my
friend has had to pay for himself to go on placement. The other story of social
work students is one girl in Aberdeen has not had a placement for over four
months because nobody will take her. Long and short of it is she might have
to take a year out because she is behind everyone else in her year. I think
the more people we get the better even if does mean linking with other students.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 21:52:07
(BST)
sleep out pyjama rama party I am so pleased with everyone's enthusiasm
- well if its OK with everyone I would like to join forces with the lancashire
group and do it in lancashire instead of Leeds. Whereabouts do you think would
be a good place. What dates are people definately not available? should we
do it on a Friday? I have a meeting with unison on thurs so I will see if
I can get some funding from them. Meanwhile if everyone can get the word round
about the sleepout to others at their universities it would be great. Even
better if we could have about 4 sleepouts around the country at the same day.
Anne-Marie Osborne
<h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 16:01:07
(BST)
Big Brother (RCN style!) Angela have just read your posting on
the RCN website. I haven't replied as you already know that I think the idea
is a brilliant one. I raised the issue at the ANS congress this weekend and
received luke warm support from some of the 'senior members' of the council.
However many of the students seemed up for it. As one of the RCN members pointed
out to me that the junior doctors did something similar to highlight their
concerns. As I have already said any publicity is good publicity. I have also
posted a reply on the members issues page about the elections and the RCN's
control freak attitude. Read it and e-mail me to tell me what you think. Anyway
I'm off to stir up more revolutionary fervor and annoy some more RCN council
members! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:52:25
(BST)Hope you guys had a good time at conference.
I have just posted a new topic on the RCN student forum called 'Taking action
for a better future' it will probably be closed for being a bit revolutionary
but if you are a member please go add some comments. Lets see how many feathers
we can ruffle this time. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:12:15
(BST)Just a quick hello and thank you to
all of you that I met at the conference over the weekend. It was refreshing
to get together with students who give a damn,in contrast with the apathy
that we often face on our own campus at DMU Leicester. It seemed that throughout
the weekend those that were speaking the most sense and trying to suggest
the way forward were students which is a cause for optimism, especially if
we can work together and turn words into positive action. Certainly the evasiveness
and apparent lack of direction displayed during Hancocks half hour suggests
that students need to take the lead in taking nursing forward and achieving
the bursary increases,reducing student hardship,and generally improving our
lot. Thanks a lot to the ANS and to all of you for making the conference an
enjoyable weekend-not least shown by the monster hangover that I have been
struggling with all day-great party last night!-cheers to all of you that
joined in the games that we put together as well. We need to all stay in touch
to ensure that the ideas and plans are put into action and we show how powerful
we can be if we all pull together. ian-julie@lestah.fsnet.co.uk - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:09:32
(BST)
Ouch!! My head hurts! I have just got back from the RCN student
Congress and it was fantastic! Can I just say a huge THANK YOU to all who
attended and especially to the ANS who executive worked very hard (and partied
even harder!) Lots of topics were discussed and the issue of student poverty
was raised (again). The sainted Hancock was at her most ineffective as per
usual and actually refused to answer any questions on what the RCN were actually
going to do about it! The question was raised if she could justify the huge
wage packet that she received and she said she could. Basically it was embarrassing
with the RCN president just falling short of telling us (students) to grow
up and stop being silly and how dare we even question her don't you know who
I am? Etc we even got the famous 'in my day' in response from one of the question
and answer panel. (If I hear that once more!!!) It just goes to show that
despite the hard work and dedication from the ANS and also from all the students
who attended, the hierarchy of the RCN does not seem to want to actually do
anything about our situation. Due to the sainted Hancock's evasiveness (she
seems to get more and more like a Tory politician in every outing) It seemed
that the RCN are not exactly 'incontinent spaniels' but are more like 'incomprehensible
mumblers!' Anyway thanks once again to all who attended perhaps we can maybe
make a difference! (Hopelessly optimistic!) Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 19:44:24
(BST)JB, glad you took a look. I can't fully
accept your view. At the workplace level, for example, thousands of Rcn stewards
and officers provide solid support to members with employment problems. The
point is nurses themselves do not have to accept the "control freak" tendencies.
The more nurses that use the Rcn site the more open the debate can become.
P>S> I hope that Angela gets BIG support for her latest ideas. Ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve> - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 11:28:15
(BST)
RCN Members' Interests Ray, I followed your suggestion to look
at members' interests on the RCN site. Every time discussions start to stray
away from the RCN official lines, the RCN moderators close the topics down.
Only the student forum is getting any traffic. Every other RCN member knows
the RCN only too well, and simply doesn't bother to enter into dialogue. The
only thing the RCN is any good for is the professional practice insurance
that you get with your membership fee. JB - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 09:03:45
(BST)
How sad!!!! I can't believe I'm here and Its 1am Angela Smith - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 01:03:28
(BST)RCN members using this site may want
to see the new page on the RCN site entitled MEMBERS INTERESTS. www.rcn.org.uk Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 20:48:26
(BST)oh yes! I have had a few problems with
the site in that the messages sometimes don't appear until the next day. Lynette - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 20:30:36
(BST)
Heard the one about the Nurse,
the Prime Minister and the teddy bear? welcome to the new chat persons! I am
near London happy to be involved with the London pyjama party. I like the
Allan Milburn bit I think it would be so much fun, he got so upset when "his"
NHS wasn't running smoothly during the fuel crisis. How do you think he'll
feel if the NHS staff members turn on him. If we don't do it now I think in
the long term it will affect attitudes within the profession. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 20:28:16
(BST)
Sleep outs I think we should have sleep outs in
London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast all on the same night. The next day
we could then march to the parliaments or assemblies of these places That
would get masses of publicity. If I get enough signatures on my petition then
we could hand in copies to each of them as well . P.S petiitons are available
if you email me. Even filling just one page (which holds twenty signatures
is better than none) We have already seen people power in action (i.e. the
fuel blockades) lets use student nurse power to make a difference. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 15:56:26
(BST)
Monday's nearly here! hi there everyone I just felt I had
to post this message to you all, to let you know I start my three year training
on Monday and now I have managed to get some fuel in my car I am looking forward
to it!!! Nichola <njyne@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 07:15:16
(BST)Hi Allen, welcome to the site - hope
it brings you all you wish for! What's happening about this sleepout? I agree
with India that we should hold them at several parts of the country. That
way more students can join and we will get more recognition and media coverage.
Any ideas on where to hold the other sleep outs? Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com> - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 19:28:23
(BST)
Sleep Out Good idea to go down the 'direct action'
route. Look what its done for this country over the oil refinery blockades.
Would you be very high profile 'sleeping out' in Lancashire. Lancashire is
indeed a beautiful place............I even trained there, but why don't you
simultaneously hold them at different sights around the country and the more
high profile the better. Why not sleep outside and block in the process, Downing
Street. I'm sure 'just call me, Tony' couldn't fail to notice a large gathering
of rather 'p*****' of student nurses camping on his doorstep.............does
anyone know where Allan Milburn and (what the hell), Christine Hancock lives!!
Give her something to ponder over while she eats her cornflakes. Glad to see
we are back to some kind of normality on this sight......at long last. I have
purposely not put my e-mail address as I don't want to suffer the same tirade
as Kris, Roger et al received to their personal mail accounts. Good luck,
would love to join you but somehow old battle scarred nurses of many years
wouldn't be welcome, this is for you to take forward the new generation of
Nurses and hopefully succeed where many have tried before and failed. Good
luck, you know you can make a difference if you stick together and ride the
storm. India - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 16:18:22
(BST)
Hi folks! Hi student nurses, I'm male/30...South
Bank University...like playing squash and chess...Trust this chat base camp
is also for making social friends and not just about nursing... Bye.... Allan
Allan Blewitt <afdblewitt@hotmail.com> - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 15:56:22
(BST)
Technical difficulties maybe?............ Has anyone had any difficulties regarding
accessing this site lately? I'm having difficulty posting messages and opening
the browser to begin with! Ange - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 15:41:23
(BST)
Sleep out? So, what's happening about this sleep
out in Lancashire then? Anyone got a proposed date or venue? Is anyone organising
this - if so do you need help? I am prepared to help in any way I can, just
e-mail me! Let's get some results at last! Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com> - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:13:15
(BST)
Student Funding & Sleep Out Roger's idea for funding is a good start
but there are large numbers of mature students, many of them single parents,
with families to support. Would they receive the same amount of funding? I
have tried on numerous occasions to bring the plight of nursing students to
someone's attention, I've had letters published in the local press, written
to my MP, written to Tony Blair & The secretary for health, (the replies I
received were very long winded but didn't answer the questions I asked, they
more or less said were better off than other students. I even appeared on
question time when the head of Unison and the shadow health secretary were
on......Guess what......they couldn't use my question.... The sleep out in
Lancashire is a great idea. COUNT ME IN. Chris <chris@cduffy23.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 21:53:18
(BST)
Jelly ice cream and pillow fights.. I like the sleep out idea we get an
opportunity to meet some of our like minded selves. I think the public need
to be made aware ..we have to be careful that we aren't undershadowed by an
opinion of "oh no not another protest...!!" Locally they have been closing
wards due to Nursing staff shortage , loads of posts no Nurses! So that was
the story I took up with them that student Nurses are dropping out left, right
and centre because we are undervalued and overexerted, even ignored in fuel
crisises. I think that there are some excellent ideas, I would urge everyone
to join in. I like the idea Roger , but is it enough? Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 21:13:09
(BST)
GET A LIFE..... No, not an offensive message like so
many from the one source on this site! Everyone has so many complicated e-mail
addresses..... Why not get a NURSELIFE e-mail address? Visit www.nurselife.co.uk
and click on the e-mail link. Call yourself whatever you want with the @nurselife.co.uk
extension - as long as it is not offensive!! And as long as someone else hasn't
got there first! This is the first release of this service, so most names
are available NOW.... So what are you waiting for? Andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk> - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 10:10:58
(BST)I have laid down some challenges to
the current Rcn President on my web site at http://come.to/ray-rowden Will
she answer? Watch this space! ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 00:29:53
(BST)Sounds like a great idea, Kris. Let's
hope it takes off! Ange - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:54:16
(BST)
Duel funding what do you think? What does anyone think of Rogers idea
of student funding? If you do not know what his plan is then go to www.rcn.org.uk/cgi-bin/rcn/ultimate.cgi
and see his breakdown or alternatively you can e-mail him at roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk.
He plans for duel funding so that students have the opportunity to earn whilst
working for their NHS trust whilst maintaining their student status and receiving
a bursary. It does seem to me like the ultimate compromise... Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:19:52
(BST)
cont....... I must stress that public transport
to my placement is nonexistent even in normal conditions. My personal tutor
says that it is our upmost responsibility as students to put those patients
first and get there by whatever means are available. Hmmm, there aren't any. Anita - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:18:05
(BST)
I've got fuel!!!! I have just put £10 worth of fuel in
my little Micra!! A local Shell garage is providing for medical staff, HCA's
etc. and even we student nurses!! I was worried how I would complete my last
2 weeks of placement but still felt guilty about getting the fuel, having
said that, there's was only enough fuel left for 90 cars at £10 each and I
justified my allowance by telling myself that at least if the HCA's didn't
manage to get any then I would be able to do their job if they couldn't make
it to work. It was quite amusing seeing irate customers queuing behind me
when they saw what I was doing and that's why I went in my uniform! I didn't
fancy getting my windows smashed on the forecourt!! Anita - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:15:13
(BST)
Sorry typo! Sorry that should read LANCASHIRE! (These
fingers, I have washed them once and now I cant do a thing with them!) KrisNicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:01:42
(BST)
I am a union man! (is lancashire
nice this time of year?) Id be well up for a sleep out anywhere
but if we cam get union support then the placement may not be such a problem.
Once the unions are on side then the publicity will come with it. Still I
hear Lancashire is nice this time of year....! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 19:59:59
(BST)
Any ideas? I'm all for this 'sleep out', but Leeds
is too far away. Would anyone be interested in this kind of thing in the Lancashire
area? Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 19:47:26
(BST)
Back not good I am afraid Piacere mio piccola fiore Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 18:04:31
(BST)
Golf Message to Roger!! having followed the
thread through, and boy did it take some time !!!! May I safely assume that
the game of Golf is off???? Ma bozza richie - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 16:37:26
(BST)The phone number for the house of commons
is 0207 2193000. You can also get info on all MPs on the Parliament web site
and from the library in DODS Parliamentary handbook. This gives good background
on all MP's so you can check them out before you see them in surgery. What
about the idea of a joint Rcn/UNISON lobby of parliament when the house returns
after summer recess. A lobby in Parliament is a good way to raise the issues
of students and I am sure a good number of MP's would support it. To RCN members,
have a great and productive conference. I tried to join you but this was blocked! ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:39:37
(BST)
Writing to MP It is very easy to write to your MP
If you do not know who he is, just phone the houses of commons and give them
your postcode, they will be able to tell you. And then just write. You can
phone your MPs dept. and find out when he has a local surgery - I am attending
one this Friday in order to persuade my MP to sign the early day motion asking
for student nurses to be salaried. Also ask them to write to Alan Milburn
on this issue. Anne-Marie - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:32:44
(BAST)
SLEEP OUT I will finish my exam week next Friday
and then will be able to devote some time into trying to organise the sleep
out. I have already discussed it with my local UNISON branch and they are
willing to support it in any way they can - refreshments, travel etc. I have
considered doing the sleep out outside the dept. of health in Leeds. There
is a pavement outside, and the law is that you are only allowed to take up
a certain percentage of the pavement before you are a public nuisance or whatever
(hope that makes sense). Please let me know if you are definately interested
- there are a few people interested at my uni. I would hate ] to make arrangements
and no one be interested. Obviously I will be able to discuss dates with you
all at a later date. Thanks for you enthusiasm Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:29:56
(BST)
Hello, Hello, Hello, What's all
this then? I have got to agree with that. Or friendly
police constables seemed to be quite happy to beat protesters to the ground
when the Chinese leader Ziang zu Min came to visit the Queen not so long back.
Perhaps dibble is not so keen to tangle with 'grown ups' rather than the students
and hippies who they have a habit of beating up! I am not calling for anything
quite on the scale of national petrol blockades although as I said before
a sleep out or some kind of protest like that seems a good idea. Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:23:42
(BST)
Purged I have managed to purge myself of the
urge to write about anything as trite as changes to the way student nurses
are paid....................................................HEY! Is anyone
dressing up at the weekend, I've gained a bit of weight and........ Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:20:48
(BST)I don't have a problem with direct action
if a situation calls for it. However I am more than a little surprised that
we seem to be being held to ransom as a country by direct action from taxi
drivers, lorry drivers and farmers, while the police stand around scratching
various bits of their anatomy. Meanwhile when direct action is taken by those
who are seen as less establishment than white middle class employed men, (i.e.
on environmental protests or during the poll tax or anti-capitalist marches)and
when the country is not being held to ransom, then it is my experience as
a participant in some of the latter events that the police seem quite keen
to practice their truncheon wielding techniques. BTW I will be asking in an
RCN meeting I have tomorrow if we can issue some advice both for students
and qualified nurses and posting it on the RCN website regarding the transport
difficulties being experienced. Linda B****y - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:08:32
(BST)
RE: fuel well folks, if you're also working on
the bank , get ready for your phone to go ballistic!!! I have a feeling we
will be needed before the week is out!! Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:37:42
(BST)
I know I keep going on but I know, I keep going on about this all
the time but it is beginning to take shape. Here is the idea. During the time
in college or on holiday students would attract the present rate of pay. This
would be paid in the form of a monthly retainer from the present source. I
think that all nursing students should be paid this way, regardless of course.
In other words, degree students should be funded the same way. However, during
the time the student is at placement they should be paid by the Health authority
as an employee. Initially, this would be at the recommended minimum wage,
which I believe is £3.60 an hour. This would mean that for the course I am
attending (the only one I can break down the hours for!) students could expect
to 'earn' £1,755.00 for their ward-based efforts. This would work out to a
combined wage of £5577.50 per annum, or £469.79 per month. I recommend that
the 'wage' element is increased each year by an increment of £0.25 per hour.
I have not had a chance to break down the second year details because of the
shift from CFP to Branch. I do have the final year figures, based on a further
increment of £0.25 per hour being paid to the students. This would break down
for my course to be £6735.00 per annum or £561.25 per month. That is as a
flat rate though I would recommend that the final year students attract enhancements.
This I believe would reduce the pressure on students who are under extreme
pressure and also face the added burden of what I have previously described
as 'exploitation'. I have described the reasons often enough on this site.
The benefits would employee status or at least joint status as enjoyed by
sandwich course students in their year out. Better wages and conditions, a
potential increase in earnings for those working the worst shifts. An financial
appreciation for the skill achieved that is commensurate with the increase
in pressure and responsibility. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:12:09
(BST)
Direct Action works The inference that we can draw from
the fuel protests are that direct action works! If only to bring publicity.
I would definately be up for some kind of direct action. A sleep out has been
mentioned so if anyone else is interested e mail me. Would we be able to get
RCN support for something like this? Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:36:49
(BST)
Fuel We are on to fuel. This will not be
popular, but on this occasion Blair et al might have a point. For two reasons
hi duty on fuel is correct. 1. Lowering polluting emissions. 2. We do have
a lower rate of direct tax and indirect tax, e.g., fuel duty pays for our
NHS, education, public infrastructure. On one hand part of me is pleased to
see that direct action is still possible and can challenge the smugness of
politicos, on the other, I have no problem in increased public spending on
things like the NHS. What lessons could be drawn for nursing though in the
campaign on fuel? Any thoughts or ideas on that one? PS, I do drive a gas
guzzling car! ray rowden <ray'rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:16:26
(BST)I have stayed off this page for a number
of days in the hope that some kind of normality would prevail. I am glad to
see that the debate has changed. Hurrrah the good honest folk have prevailed.
Anyway thanks to those who have given me names for job sites(I have n't had
a look yet but I will.) The situation in Aberdeen with the fuel crisis is
desperate. The ward I am on had to cancel theatre lists because there was
not enough of us on to post op care, not only that but most of the theatre
staff and doctors were stuck in traffic. Some of them did not get in till
lunchtime I don't know how some of the students have coped with traveling
because a lot of them come from rural areas not only that we have just heard
tonight that the bus services are about to be reduced I think our school is
of the same opinion that we should just make alternative arrangements. But
if you rely on public transport what are you supposed to do. I do however
agree with why they are doing it. We get ripped off left, right and centre
Bye for now Angela Angela smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:14:28
(BST)
I'm here Im here ready and willing to debate
the current issues of the day! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:45:51
(BST)
Where is everyone is there anybody there? Angela smith - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:43:39
(BST)
Support I'm not saying that the people who are
blockading the fuel terminals are wrong, far from it. We do have one thing
in common, in that nobody seems to listen to anything that we say or appreciate
the hardships that we suffer when you don't get paid enough to survive on.
They, as we have, have been pushed to one side as a minor irritance. This
government promised the situation would be improved, it was obviously political
clap trap intended to make people believe that they were the party to vote
for. I wonder if there is any political power that might have the interests
of nursing at heart? Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:53:49
(BST)
No support. Dear concerned, I have asked one of
my tutors this morning about the problems that some students may have with
the shortage of fuel that is occurring across the country. She went off to
confer with the "Head of School of Nursing and Midwifery" who promptly told
her that students had to find others ways of getting to placement! How much
help is that? Some students have to travel 30 miles each way for their placement.
What are they supposed to do? Camp in a field close by just so they can get
there on time? What a farce! Another case of "it's OK, they're only students".
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:44:50
(BST)
No Fuel AAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How am I going to get to my placement when I finally run out of fuel!!!!!!
If we have days off we get penalised, my personal tutor didn't get back to
me on this today..... So I have half a tank of petrol and that's it, by the
weekend there will be none!! Concerned - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:02:37
(BST)
Rambling on again... The course is divided into two elements
comprising 2300 hours each, and seemingly necessitating a return to primary
school with the use of registers for everything. The point that has been raised
by Kris Nicol on the RCN website is one that attracts great merit. The point
is made that ODP's are trained in house and seem to suffer none of the problems
that student nurses do. In fact, they seem to revel in their employee status
and the fact that they are quickly incorporated into the culture that pervades
their departments. They are also offered the opportunity to 'bank' early on
into their training, as they are already employees. As the training progresses
the pay is incremental, as presumably the ODP trainees are able to contribute
more. My earlier arguments considering the idea of joint funding seem to have
been largely ignored, which as the father of such plans is either a woundingly
honest appraisal of my incoherent babbling, or just that things around here
have been off topic. I should like to apologise to anyone who I have offended
during this somewhat bitter on screen 'argument'. I just don't take kindly
to certain things, perhaps in the remaining days before conference we could
all zoom in on the problems that beset us all and I could search for the furthest
flung members of Teddy Bear army. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:35:52
(BST)
Lets now take action! If you have all seen the publicity surrounding
the direct action taken by the people campaigning for cheaper fuel prices.
Direct action does have a benefit even if it is just to highlight an area
that needs the publicity. A sleep out sounds like a good idea but does anyone
have any ideas on what else we could do? And how do i go about writing to
my MP? Lynette dont worry if we all stand together there is not much anyone
can do to harm us! Now this is unity at work! Oh and just a quick one if anyone
out there who is reading this site and is worried about contributing DONT
WORRY! please please please contribute as we need to hear from any students
who have something to say. If you have any ideas on the way in which nurse
training should be funded, or even if you just want to have a whinge about
college or placement then just post them up here. We need to hear from all
students no matter where you are from or what you beleive. VARIETY IS THE
SPICE OF LIFE! Kristian Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:17:39
(BST)
Ann-Marie you are a star! Cracking idea! The sooner the better
with one on the weather but it has the makings of a great media catching event! Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:05:29
(BST)
Action Is anyone interested in a bit of a publicity
stunt - perhaps a sleep out, these have generated a lot of publicity and support
in london and down south. There is a possibility that we can get our unions
to support us. I am thinking about doing this in the northern region. What
do you think? Anne-Marie <h9150376> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 12:56:55
(BST)
WELL THERE YOU HAVE IT! Completely unbelievable, thanks for
the support and responses from you all! I was physically sick after I had
the email from Suren. I have been threatened to be killed by the mother of
my step daughter and that did not upset me as much as being accused of being
a racist. I think that Suren would be dangerous as a representitive and I
fear the reputation of the Nursing profession.On a lighter note I have successfully
communicated with my MP who is asking Lord Hunt how he expects Student Nurses
to continue their education. I have also managed to get a story running through
my local press .....Next step Nationals! hurray! Roger I will support you
in anyway for anything. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 11:21:54
(BST)Nipper, thanks for the plug! I hope
I can win the election and that I can do something to keep these issues on
the agenda, but even if I do not, this campaign has taught me a lot more about
the real experience of students and I will stick with it in any way I can.
I am interested in learning more about views on what a "decent bursary" might
look like and its components. Any views would be welcomed either here or by
email. If we are to fight the status quo it might be neat, in media terms
at least, to have a sense of what we think a bursary should be worth, given
that nursing students have to work and do not get the full leave benefits
of others. ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 00:40:54
(BST)
educational ramblings.... The course needs to be modularised,
so that in respect to the various branches, the final year could contain some
genuine elements of choice for the students. I am an adult nursing student
but upon qualification I would like to work in medicine and not surgery. With
a shorter CFP, surely there should be room. People speak of foreign electives,
that would be fantastic but the only examples I am aware of are for the degree
students. No criticism intended. Why not inter-hospital placements, which
do not occur here in the midlands, unless there are special circumstances?
Surely a broader range of experiences would produce a better experienced and
hopefully more balanced professional upon completion? The government is pushing
for common training for healthcare professionals, as is the RCP. This would
also free up semester time as there would be more focus. The present systems
that force student nurses to wait months for results before facing the possibility
of re-sitting papers months after moving out of an area. The problem is that
there is this feeling that student nurses are somehow part of the student
body, when in fact they seem distinct. We do not share the same holidays the
same facilities often or similar status. We seem neither fish nor fowl. If
we have to continue in abject poverty under the aegis of student status, should
we not be at least allowed to share the same structure of course as students,
with variations and elective elements? What about languages? A large number
of my patients are from the Indian sub-continent and we are constantly lectured
on the importance of communication, yet no one has thought of making provision
in the course for any such languages. This seems to be the problem that no
matter if the criticism is constructive or destructive, that it occurs seems
to serve to illustrate the shortfall of not just nursing and nurse training;
but of those who are purportedly fighting for nursing. It is very hard to
suggest that all these problems exist without at the same time suggesting
someone somewhere has been remiss. Then you get into this defensive posturing
and the sort of "we are doing all we can" situation. The "it is up to you"
statement follows this, which is probably true. However, when you think that
one of the problems, we as a group of friends identified when discussing nursing,
is a lack of leadership by the organisations representing nursing; it is hard
to see how. Without active leadership, reaching out to people and becoming
an integral part of the student nurse culture it is going to be hard. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:49:00
(BST)
Turning talk into Action (well
more talk at least!) I agree with Roger, many of the students
i have talked to feel let down by the organisations that represent them. They
belive ( as do i!) that despite the constant promise of action and the constant
issuing of slogans (whats this years RCN one? Lets turn talk into action?)there
has been a lot of talking and not alot of action. Very rarely do we see nursing
leaders in the media stating our case. Not once have i in three years seen
a Nursing representative standing up and discussing just what a raw deal student
nurses recieve. (come to think of it i haven't seen anyone standing up and
discussing about how poorly all Nurses are treated) This says alot about the
state of Nursing leadership. Where is the figurehead behind whom Nursing can
unite and then move onwards? I can say from my own personal experience that
no one who is not from a nursing background can name a nurse leader. No one
knows who Christine Hancock is yet many people know who Rodney Bickerstaff
is or remember Arthur Scargill. For gods sake most people i know can name
at least one famous doctor! (perhaps with a change of leader the RCN may actually
increase its public profile! go on you know you want to vote for Ray!!!) Another
reason why nursing students feel so dissalousioned (sorry for the spelling
but it is late at night!) is that they are isolated. Politically and physically.
At my university we didnt untill recently even have a NUS rep at our campus.
Nursing is made out to be unitentionally perhaps, the poor cousin of 'real'
university courses. We are also distanced from our qualified colleagues with
many of them developing 'staff Nurseitis'. This is where the individual forgets
the moment they qualify what it was like to be a student! (This is said in
half jest and is not an attack on any one individual!) Until Nursing students
are reconciled with there qualified colleagues and some sort of mutual respect
is achieved then i believe that nothing will really change. (PS i dont believe
that Roger really was referring to Suren as a female anatomy. I think that
it was a statement of how he(ROGER)was made to feel by someone!) Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:44:47
(BST)
Nelson-like, it should have said
Nelson-like fingers again Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:16:50
(BST)
Ideas pushed around A few of us have been talking about
the approaching conference and discusses some of the perceived problems that
exist. Some of the areas that have been identified have been the disparity
that exists between courses. Further to this is the variations in the structure
of individual courses. The recent ENB led assessment of courses seems to have
failed to identify any of the shortcomings of the sites. The question of funding
returns continually, and is at the heart of a lot of the ill feeling. The
perception that as students we have to find facts about our future, rather
than have the various parties concerned inform us as a group. The seemingly
small details that act as universal blocks to people attempting to enter nursing.
Creche fees, prescriptions, rent (especially as so many health authorities
are selling up), uniform allowance, poor facilities and ever increasing class
sizes. The question of treatment on the wards seems to be a moot one, with
a lot of differing opinions being expressed here. The group here in the midlands
has felt that a lot of the treatment has been poor and the justification behind
it weak. All around we can see the evidence of a profession in crises, with
the Government adopting what amount to panic policies to fill the shortfall.
Some of the criticism levelled at the respective organisations is felt to
be justified. The question is again, how has this happened and what could
the concerned parties have done to stop it. This is not for the purpose of
revisionism but that it might be stopped from occurring in the future. Against
this is the continual pressure of very real poverty, which when you think
that Christine Hancock earns £229.97 per day, well it might make the meekest
feel like criticising. People are debating issues and putting forward ideas,
but what some of us are less than happy about is that the Nelosn-like lack
of vision on behalf of those who have identified themselves as being part
of the hierarchy. Many of us feel that the RCN/ANS have been less than active
in communicating to the student body and also remiss in attemting to galvanise
the student body into action. A quick glance at the annual accounts reveals
more than chump change in the coffers yet the ability of the RCN to get out
amongst the student population seems limited. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:14:04
(BST)
Hello to you too Suren, Whilst I agree with your discontent
regarding rogers 'definition' of you, my views remain the same. Quite frankly,
I am tiring of having to reply to you so I will make this the last one. Please
don't lecture me about attacking you when I have never met you, you have never
met people on this page yet continue to attack them. I would like to suggest
that you take your own advice as this presents you as being hypocritical!
Please think about this before the next time you hit 'send'. Ange - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:51:50
(BST)
Been away I have just returned from a conference
in Malta, 350 doctors from across the med, only 3 nurses! My host, a brilliant
colleague who is involved in the Maltese nursing association has fought like
stink for recognition for nursing in their health care system. It was good
to be there and see her success. I have come back here to see what had been
going on! Angela started a crucial debate a few weeks ago here and on the
Rcn site about the position of students and the real hardships they face.
We really do need some focus. A petition is on the move and we have visitors
on this site from UNISON and the RCN. The ANS conference is coming up and
will be a real opportunity to make that focus work for students. The media
will be there, as will some key figures from the Rcn. I hate to sound like
MATRON, but keep the anger for the real enemies of progress for students,
i.e., a rotten system, and don't dissipate it on battles with each other.
If the ANS can get a clear position and share it with UNISON colleagues, we
might be on to something that can galvanise the energy of the student community.
What would help on this site is some ideas around the concept of salary v
bursary? The needs of students viz accomodation and related costs. Any ideas
as to how we might improve the audit of the quality of clinical placements?
Any ideas about how we could build alliances with the many decent lecturers
out there, who are also abused by increased numbers and limited resources?
Any ideas about how the travel costs for students could be helped? Lets run
with ideas, we can sort personalities over a drink at Rcn Congress and elsewhere. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:42:01
(BST)
REPLY Kris I agree that nursing is in crisis
at the present time, and it will only get worse unless we do something. If
you have poor representation in your area you can do something to change it.
When I first started at my university we had no effective representation.
We all joined the RCN for protection yet for a university with over 1500 pre
registration students we had only two stewards. We found out how to become
stewards and attended the training programmes, we now have 8, 4 of us attended
RCN congress this year and we have more hopes for next year. Four of us also
attend the LONDON FORUM FOR STUDENT NURSES which has been facilitated by the
ANS but is run by the members. I feel that if you are not properly represented
then you can take control and make a difference. If you wish to find out more
please contact me. I feel very passionately about the problems that student
nurses face and from the points I have observed that most of the students
do as well. I expect that there are issues we all will disagree on but that
is the key point of debate and is a way of moving forward. So why not try
to work with the ANS and other Representative bodies, I feel that you will
be suprised by the cross section of ideas that we debate. I have no desire
to see any student nurse condemed or attacked. I wish to facilitate the discussion
and welcome comments, I have no agenda or political retoric just a desire
for a fair deal for student nurses as do most of my colleagues in the RCN/ANS.
I state that my postings are my own opinion because I have not discussed them
with the members that I represent. So to all the Students that write so passionately
I suggest that you get involved work together and fight for a just deal for
all student nurses. Work with the bodies that represent you and lobby to get
your voice heard. PS GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU IN THE FUTURE WITH YOUR TRAINING Michael Conlon <Michael.Conlon1@virgin.net> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 20:43:40
(BST)
REPLY Kris I agree that nursing is in crisis
at the present time, and it will only get worse unless we do something. If
you have poor representation in your area you can do something to change it.
When I first started at my university we had no effective representation.
We all joined the RCN for protection yet for a university with over 1500 pre
registration students we had only two stewards. We found out how to become
stewards and attende Michael Conlon <Michael.Conlon1@virgin.net> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 20:43:40
(BST)
Uh oh were in trouble... Micheal, you are right it does sound
like student nursing utopia. However if we are represented properly and we
are able to put our point across effectively and if and i say if we can all
be a little more tolerant of differences and stop taking offence at every
little statement (myself included!) then we have a chance of really making
a difference for all those nurses yet to study.*********************** Interesting
article in Todays Times. It states that recent research has highlighted the
fact that'one fith of all Nurses are considering quitting the profession'.
They cite poor pay and conditions as the main reasons for wanting to leave.
Sounds scary huh! The NHS is now 17,000 nurses short. This will have a direct
effect on the way in which students are treated. Less staff= Less Mentors=
More abuse of students as another pair of hands.Well im worried!! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:55:22
(BST)
Really As a third year diploma student I am
in despair at the fact that none of the RCN/ANS committee or shop stewards
who have written in have had the fortitude to criticise 'their' colleague.
I started out calling for unity on this site and now I am quite happy to get
stuck in as I am about to be 'represented' by someone who cannot even speak
my language and whose resulting lack of comprehension has resulted in this
debacle. Obviously the fact that Suren is from a different culture has reduced
everyone from the RCN/ANS side of things, to silence. The fear of the Political
Correctness Police must have you quaking, meanwhile the soon to be representative
can level accusations where he wnats unopposed by authority. Yeah, unity,
but who is united and what for? This is becoming like the 'emperor's new clothes',
so if you have trouble seeing that democracy has already been taken for a
ride, and is about to get slaughtered; then the only unity you must be concerned
with is the unity of those who wish not to see what is obvious. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:38:51
(BST)
DISBELIEF & DESPAIR I have just read over the comments on
this page and am in a state of disbelief. I feel as a third year diploma student
nurse and an RCN steward that the only thing that will defeat us is by fighting
amongst ourselves. I appeal to all of my colleagues to address the issues
which affect us all. 1. Money - We need a fair bursary. 2. Housing - cheap
affordable and liveable near placements and university. 3. Parity of education
- At congress this year a student had completed 39 summnative assignments
and not one drug round (this student is now qualified. As opposed to some
of my peers who have only completed 12-14. 4. Placements - Well facillitated
with enthusiastic mentors and good staffing levels. Yes, before everyone rushes
to their keyboards, I know this is a view of nursing student utopia, but I
feel we need to start somewhere and have an aim that is worthwhile. I suggest
those of you who are in the RCN work with the ANS executive and your local
activists to lobby for change. Those of you who are in UNISON do the same
and those of you who have not joined a representative body please do so. We
can work apart and fail or work together to make progressive change to improve
the conditions for those who will follow us. Michael Conlon <Michael.Conlon1@virgin.net> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:10:01
(BST)
More websites for Angela For jobs in the NHS try,www.nhsjobs.com/meta/copyright.htm.
Its allright but is only about jobs in the health service. Good luck Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 18:49:44
(BST)
wat r u sayin? READ IT, READ THE WORDS, READ THE EIGHTH
WORD, (8), READ IT AND FOR JUST ONCE TRY AND UNDERSTAND, GO ON, FEEL FREE,
WORK IT OUT, THE WORD IS ME, IN ENGLISH THAT REFERS TO SELF Goodbye and godbless
Cheers, 500 words describing me in what in common parlance would be a four
letter word referring to a woman's reproductive organs. If you have found
support for your views on the ward in London, your god better be at close
hand! He will be needed to save nursing from the likes of you Roger Obermaier
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:14:02 (BST) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 18:11:50
(BST)
Hello Ange I am surprised that you actually support
all that Roger and his chums has written. The uncalled for remarks and he
even compared me to the reproductive organs of a women. Are u telling me that
is acceptable. Ange I do not know what is your problem but you are entitled
to your opinions and it is only your opinions. I am saddened that for a person
whom you have never met and do not know u have such hatred. What have you
achieved by attacking me in the manner you have? Do you really think that
you are a better human being than me? What makes you so special that you constantly
attack me and be so offensive? My intentions has always been sincere and always
asked for unity. It is posting like yours and some of my responses which I
feel ashamed that I allowed people like you to take over my good nature and
sense. I apologise to all Nursing Students for what meant to be a logical
and sensible debate has now turned out to be Suren bashing. Ange take a good
look at all the postings and be honest with yourself that you and your friends
are being honest here. I merely responded to you and your chums rudeness to
me. Suren Suku - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:42:06
(BST)
To Angela Smith: Angela, jobsin.co.uk
have got a great employment section for nurses, so has nursing-job-advertiser.com,
good luck with your job search....... js - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:04:21
(BST)
PETITIONS I do not know how many student nurses
are aware, but UNISON has a petition being circulated. The petition asks for
a wage instead of a bursary, i realise many people fought for supernumary
status and the end to a wage, but i think it is evident that this approach
is not effective. The petition does not wish to see an end to supernumary
status, but asks for a fair wage for student nurses. If anyone would like
a copy please do not hesitate to contact me. UNISON are planning to present
these to No.10 sometime this month. When i know any more details i will let
you know. Anne-Marie Osborne
<h91503756@hud.ac.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 14:11:07
(BST)
Lets return to normal.!!! So what is anyones opinion on the future
of nurse funding? Will we have to in the end return to employee status (not
nessecarily a bad idea). Or will the RCN in all its guises manage to secure
future students a better bursary? I would be interested in hearing the views
of anyone who has an opinion on the subject. Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 10:52:42
(BST)
PERSONAL ATTACKS!! I have been reading all the message
postings for the last week. Firstly I would like to say that it is encouraging
to see so many opinions and views on a wide range of matters.
I however have to step in at this point and ask anyone posting messages including
personal attacks and negative comments to refrain from doing so.
This message board offers the opportunity to discuss whatever issues you want,
and with it not being moderated before messages are posted hopefully encourages
people to express their views fully on "Nursing". We do not want to be forced
into having to moderate it, as that situation will surely take the edge off
positive discussion.
Some recent postings have clearly detracted from "nursing issues" and would
ask all involved not to hijack these pages for personal means. We should be
striving to attract people to join in the discussion, and not give the feeling
they do not want to participate.
Thank you. BRUTISH NURSING WEBMASTER
<webmaster@brutish-nursing.com> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 10:31:22
(BST)
Unbelievable........ Suren, your attitude gets worse each
time you write. Being in a position of some authority you should be utterly
ashamed of yourself. And as if you couldn't stoop any lower you use your culture
as an excuse for people arguing with you. THE REASON PEOPLE ARGUE IS BECAUSE
YOU WRITE COMPLETE NONSENSE. How dare you try to claim that we are racist.
Whether you are black, blue, pink or rainbow coloured, the issue we have with
you is your poor, arrogant unthoughtful attitude. How did someone of your
maturity ever be elected for student rep. I am amazed. I would be most happy
if I never saw your postings in here again - Suren - you are the one who needs
to reflect upon what you have written so how about taking some of your own
advice. JUST GROW UP PLEASE! Ange - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:25:32
(BST)
Sad I just feel all this bickering is really
sad. There is no need for personal attacks. Everyone has the right to their
opinion and lively debate is a wonderful thing. The problem seems to be when
people read more into things than they should. I have read all the postings
that Suren suggested and I'm afraid I cannot find anything wrong with what
has been posted. Like the last message, I came to this site to get help, advice
and read the views of other colleagues, because that's what we are, we are
all colleagues. Regardless of race, religion or colour. I haven't even started
my training yet and I feel quite anxious if the messages on here are anything
to go by. What are my mentors on the ward going to have me do? Skivvy instead
of learn? I am all for joining the fight for trying to increase our bursary
and getting better conditions for our placements but is there really any need
for all this bickering? Heather <leheluja@aol.com> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:16:00
(BST)
I don't believe it.. Well this surely has taken everyone
to a new level. As a first year student nurse I came to this site for guidance
and am sorely disillusioned..I'm sure many others feel the same! I shall not
be posting any longer as this does not feel to be a productive exchange, and
wholeheartedly agree with Ange that somewhere along the line the plot got
somewhat lost. Good luck to all nursing students with their courses..lets
hope that we in the future can make a difference by joining together !
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 08:13:49
(BST)
Sigh! Are we ever going to get over this?
:-( Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 06:38:32
(BST)
Get a life roger Roger you just displayed your ignorance
and what a loser you are. Nursing will be better of without people like u
and Kris. What you two are doing here is stirring up hatred. From what I see
here that the both of you are the most vocal. I might not be British but at
least I have my dignity but that says much of a person who is as vulgar as
you....have you not got the guts to use the exact words as u intended it to
be...as I said before....it is easy to sit behind a computer and type away
in the comfort of your house but it takes a real person to say things like
that face to face....Roger and Kris the both of need saving from each other.....yes
the people in London will support me because they know me in real life rather
from a computer....at least I know I am not a coward like you to.....it shows
your ignorance and further more the true colours of each of you....you may
go ahead and write as many vile rhetoric's about me here on this website......but
you know what you two are showing the rest of the people who you really are.....as
for you Kris I never have seen a two faced person in life like you....one
hand you are offering reconciliation and the other you have a knife ready
to stab me in the back.....wow that is might impressive......well if nursing
has to survive it rather be in the hands of the people like myself and many
other foreigners which we are very much bailing out the crisis than have you
two in charge. You would kill nursing in two minutes since you take over......so
good bye and good luck this is my last posting here....wow I have never seen
a bunch of ignoramus people in my life than you two.....IGNORANCE IS LIKE
A DELICATE FRUIT, TOUCH IT AND THE BLOOM IS GONE.. Suren Suku - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 05:22:09
(BST)
Goodbye and godbless Cheers, 500 words describing me in what
in common parlance would be a four letter word referring to a woman's reproductive
organs. If you have found support for your views on the ward in London, your
god better be at close hand! He will be needed to save nursing from the likes
of you Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:14:02
(BST)
Missing the point Suren, I think that you have missed
the point of this site. It allows for the discussion of matters with which
you may not necessarily agree. The whole point of various stages of the argument
thus far have been that students are getting a bad deal. Yes I believe that
the RCN and the ANS has failed student nurses. Yes I believe that Christine
Hancock is innefectual (in the same way I regard Tony Blair and Alan Milburn
are useless) I do not seek to attack them personally. I seek to state my opinion
that none of them are doing there job effectively. I believe that the RCN
is failing me because I do not have enough money to live on and despite constant
promises of action I personally have yet to see anything. I repeat that no
one on this site has attacked anyone in a personal way. I still cannot see
where I or Roger have a problem with foreigners. Doesn't Roger state that
he respects those from other cultures and has even spent time among them?
Suren this last posting does despite all of my efforts to the contrary seem
to be the posting of someone with a problem. Now whether this problem is of
your own making or of anyone else's only you can answer. But firing accusations
at people who don't agree with you is not the way to do it. I hoped that my
last posting may of been seen as a conciliatory gesture but it seems that
you don't want to compromise and that you only seek to villify..... I am sorry
at this situation. To everyone else lets try and return to the original argument.
We have all agreed that Student Funding is inadequate the next question is
what can we do about it? I hope that this puts an end to all the vitriol... Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:11:18
(BST)
wow roger You always seem to miss the point. I
have shown some staff nurses and HCAs all the posting i.e. 53 pages of it
and they have read them and they feel that you are the one with the problem
here. You have a complexity about foreigners. U see Roger not matter what
you say or do you will not undermine the hardwork the ACN and ANS has done
for Nursing Students. You would not turn a good debate into your own little
mind games. You should re-read all your posting and then look at it as Tom
and not Roger and then when u have understood what you have written then you
would realise how offensive and how demeaning u have been. U have made retractions
of statements and u have offended many other people on the website as well.
So roger u can go on and on attacking me and my honour....but before u do
that take a good look in the mirror and see who is standing in front of it....I
just that ... I saw me a decent and an honest person....I saw a person who
believes in what he stands for....you started this whole attack and you initially
made some very personal attacks on me.....so go back and reflect...and also
go to the very beginning and see how many other people you have offended with
your tirades.....I have no problems about your postings and you.....I have
the problem when you attack people because they do not fit your way of thinking.....you
accused me of a lot of things and you have questioned my intergrity.....well
are u a really honourable person....if u was u would not behave in the manner
u have.....now I can see what a fool I was to respond to your tirade and drop
myself into a debate with a person who is so self righteous. U got to understand
with all your quotations and trying to impress has no relevance to the fight
for a fair bursary. By attacking Christine Hancock and the RCN does not make
u a better person. If u feel so strongly about her why don't you write to
her and tell her exactly how you feel rather than attack her without giving
her a chance to defend herself....so take that look in the mirror and see
who you see there......this is my last posting in regards to you and your
chums and I would prefer you not to contact me nor respond to any future meassages
I put on this website which is information for the benefit for students.....please
leave me alone and live your life and I will live mine.....I beg of u not
to reply to this and just let it be.......good bye and god bless you Suren Suku - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:54:05
(BST)
TRUCE!!! Suren, please, please stop this. This
situation must end now. You cannot just go around throwing accusations wildly
at people. I have read all of the postings that you have suggested and I cannot
see any of the things that you say are there. There is no hidden agenda, there
are no conspiracies of people trying to oust you from your position. No one
wants your job, in fact as far as I can discern people have been quite positive
towards you up until you started accusing them of things that I believe are
not there. Most of this situation has arisen because you believe that you
are being attacked on a personal level for whatever reason. That is not true.
People disagree with the position you take and the viewpoints you state AND
NOT WITH YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL. As one of those who you have inferred of racism
( I said inferred and not accused) I feel very strongly that you may be missing
the point of the postings. Until you started reacting strongly to others no
one had posted anything that was in any way critical of you as a person. I
wish to apologise for anything that YOU may have taken in the wrong way. I
cannot however be held responsible for your OWN UNIQUE interpretation of the
postings of others. I ask once again that some sort of truce is agreed so
that the issue can turn away from petty squabbles and as Roger and others
have tried to do return to the matters at hand. I thank you for your consideration.
Kris Nicol Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:18:55
(BST)
Suren Clearly you feel that you have been
slighted. It is also evident that you feel the victim in this. Most of the
postings on this site prior to your identifying another agenda were concerned
with student nursing. I have posted two pieces today concerning a proposed
solution to the problem of funding. I am not sure quite what it is that you
feel you can achieve by maintaining this continual tirade. It would seem that
the person whose position it is to help others, is in fact in need of help
himself. There is nothing more that I wish to say to you. You pose questions
and when you get the answers you ignore them. My only concern is for the safety
of those who oppose your opinions. One other thought, Britain is a democracy,
the last time I was at Heathrow, the customs people were stopping people on
the way in. If you so profoundly hate the way we fascists run this totalitarian
state, perhaps a return to your native land would be the salve for what ails
you? Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:12:47
(BST)You go away for a weekend and all hell
breaks loose! Will everyone stop shouting, it is very difficult to read. Roger
your last post had some interesting ideas in it, coupled with some of the
other suggestions here about how student teachers are being treated and some
sort of restoration to benefits it would certainly help. The RCN is in the
process of putting together its annual evidence to the Pay Review Body, which
although it does not really have a remit for bursaries it might be worth including
something on anyway. I will come back and read it tomorrow when I have not
got so much vodka on board, and if I can cut and paste it will forward it
to the appropriate person. Linda B****y - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:06:12
(BST)
wow Hey I will be around and I will achieve
what I am set out to do. If you guys feel this strongly why did any of you
not stand for elections and then maybe we could have real debates and real
policy discussion. Rather than picking and choosing what you guys are going
to attack me on. Well if nursing is going to survive....I do not see it surviving
in your hands, i.e.. Roger and his chums. Take a good look are your postings
and read them carefully. Everything you guys accuse me of...is a true reflection
of your personalities. If you people are so mature and intelligent why not
lets meet around a table in a boardroom and discuss these issues. Instead
of continuously attacking me and when I respond you do not like it. You guys
have insulted me..used vile and vulgar terms on me. If you guys are so decent
and upstanding citizens you would not print such nonsense and hide behind
this tirade. Thus far none of you people have addressed what I have been asking
you all to address. Why are you all not wanting to discuss the real issues
here...Ange and company u can say what you want to say u can have your opinions
which u are entitled to. This does not mean the entire population of the nursing
students are going to believe you. By Ange, Roger, Heather, just to name a
few really do believe they can take nursing student forward then come forward
and join the ANS executive. Come forward and fill in the positions that are
available. Make your voice heard. I have all the postings you have made and
there are lot of nastiness and offensive remarks made by yourselves and lots
of retractions of your statements....so if you people want to really debate
student issues or really want to say all this to my face I am willing to meet
all of you and show me where I am wrong. Show me what have I done to deserve
this abuse from you all. It is easy to sit behind a computer and type away.
It is easy to attack people and try to demean them. It is easy to attack people
without substance..If you all really believe that what you have written was
not offensive and not racist then show me where I went wrong and I will write
an apology to you all unreservedly......but before I go I would like Roger
and his friends to go to the following postings and read what they have written:
01. wow what a response; 10/09 @ 01h31 posted....02. Lynette; posted 09/09
@ 14h51....03. Roger; 08/09 @ 22h46...04. Ange; 07/09 @ 22h48....05. HCA attitudes
to student nurses; 07/09 @ 01h27....06. obviously dim; 05/09 @ 19h31...07.
what; 04/09 @ 10h54 this is just a few you all should reread and then reflect
on what you have written....yes you are correct in saying that you have a
democratic right to voice your opinions in any form or manner. But when you
incite xenophobia and hatred....you lose that right....well you all are preaching
democracy...have you all allowed me my democratic right.....have you all actually
given my postings a fair reading and understanding.....all along I have been
asking for unity.....well go ahead and run your anti Suren campaign and hey
if I get kicked out no probs.....at least you have achieved your goal.....then
you must ask your selves this question...AM I A HUMAN BEING? WHAT HAEV WE
ACHIEVED HERE? HAEV WE REALLY ACHIEVED ANYTHING BUT JUST MADE ANOTHER PERSON'S
LIFE A MISERY BECAUSE WE COULD NOT ANSWER HIM BACK IN A GOOD HUMANE MANNER?
WELL ROGER AND CHUMS, I WILL NOT RESIGN MY POST AND LET ME TELL YOU THIS I
WOULD FIGHT YOU ALL ..... ALL THE WAY THROUGH ..... I HAVE DONE NOTHING TO
DESERVE THIS ABUSE FROM YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS.....JUST GO BACK AND REFLECT
ON WHAT YOU ALL HAVE WRITTEN....JUST LOOK AT IT VERY DEEPLY....DOES THIS MAKE
YOU ALL BETTER THAN ME......WELL IF YOU ALL HAVE AN OUNCE OF CONSCIENCE AND
COMMON DECENY AND BEFORE YOU PEN YOUR NEXT POISON MESSAGE THINK, JUST THINK....WOULD
YOUR PARENTS BE PROUD OF YOU ALL IN THE MANNER YOU HAVE ATTACKED ME..... Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:51:36
(BST)
Email sent to me. Following the message that I posted
yesterday, I received an email from Suren - the content of which I find quite
disturbing. An extract - "hey I do have a life.....it show how ignorant you
are.....well birds of a feather always flock together........it amazes me
how you all stick together and protect each other on the webpages....go back
and read the postings properly and if u do not see the bigotry and racism
then u are naive and ignorant....or u choose to deny it is true. You choose
to hide behind pathetic outbursts like you just made.....u can make me the
butt of your pub jokes but are you any better than me....at least I know I
am not perfect......but are you....." I would just like to respond in two
ways - firstly, Suren said that he would no longer visit this site to see
the lively and extremely interesting (my view not his!) debate that is going
on. Secondly, is this the type of person that we, as student nurses, want
to represent us? I rest my case. Heather <Leheluja@aol.com> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 19:55:31
(BST)
Payment partnership prevents
poverty Further to the idea of earlier, an expansion
of the idea. The premise would be that throughout the training period, the
time spent by the student in non-clinical settings would attract financial
support from the present source, higher education in the form of LHA's or
wherever the bursary or grant arrives from. This would be paid either at the
start of the semester (I am assuming that is how the degree students are paid
what little they get) or split over the year as the diploma students are paid.
A tally of the hours to be worked in each semester would allow the appropriate
weighting to be applied. By this I mean a first semester first year student
with limited ward exposure would be largely paid by the educational side of
the partnership. However, for the remainder of the time, that spent 'working'
on the wards, the student would be paid by the hospital where the work was
performed. Presumably this would mean by the end of the course the student
would be largely 'paid' by the hospital they worked in.............paragraph..................
This means that the student would have to be given a payroll number and the
hospital would be responsible for calculating and paying the 'wage' that the
individual student 'earned'. This could be incremental, dependent on experience
and reviewed semester by semester. This would mean that as the course progressed
and so did the students skills, so there capacity to earn would increase.
.............paragraph.................. Present sandwich course students
earn significant amounts of money during their year in industry yet retain
their student status so some form of precedent exists. The wards would be
obliged to regard the implications of rostering students as cheap cover or
using final year students to make up for staff shortages. If possible the
negotiation of shift allowances would further the students cause. .............paragraph..................
Basically, if you were going to earn a reasonable wage, even if it was not
a significant one, working all those unsocial hours would be a little less
painful. If the cost forced ward managers to re-evaluate their use of students,
perhaps there would be a lower incidence of unsocial rostering anyway. The
pressure to work in addition to study and placement would be reduced, and
hopefully the pressure as well. With a little more money rolling in, more
weekends off and the chance to relax or study at night instead of slipping
into another job, life might improve. .............paragraph..................
The money will essentially come from the same place, though there will need
to be more of it. However, the cost of dropouts and people leaving the profession
should be considered here as well. .............paragraph..................
So, please chip in with the all the blatantly obvious things I have overlooked
or missed, it is just you know what it is like when you think your onto something.
.............paragraph.................. Oh, I should think that as long as
you 'earn' less than £120.00 per week tax and NI should not be a problem.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 18:52:33
(BST)
How mature, Suren. I totally agree with Angela regarding
the bitterness and immaturity expressed on this website of late. Suren, I
was under the impression that you were elected as student representative.
How? You do nothing but verbally abuse the students who write in with issues
that obviously you have no regard or concern for. I have read your last messages
addressed to Roger and feel deeply appalled. Is this the voice of someone
we are meant to be able to rely on for help and support? I think not. I personally
think you are abusing your position and if I had my way you would not be student
rep. You need to LISTEN to what people are saying before you jump on your
high horse giving advice and opinions which wouldn't even be possible in an
IDEAL WORLD. Stop using this website as a petty excuse to lay into every student
who expresses their concerns or thoughts. I would recommend that you examine
your thoughts and maturity before you next write. Ange - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:49:53
(BST)
Idea We currently earn £2.60-ish an hour
for our time, whether at college, placement or on holiday. Some of have been
discussing the idea that if we received the same flat rate for the college
element and the holidays, paid by the college/LHA, as a grant/bursary; we
then reason that we could be paid the minimum wage for the time on the wards,
by the hospital that we were/are working in. Hopefully we would be able to
get some form of adjustment for weekends and nights. This would allow students
to be viewed as something less than cheap-rate bank HCA's. Perhaps a change
in the cost that students represent to hospitals would help engender a change
in the way students are utilised and rostered and ultimately treated. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:41:26
(BST)
Appearrd on the BBC site: Monday, 4 September, 2000, 14:20 GMT
15:20 UK Seriously ill 'left with student nurses' Inexperienced nurses are
being left to cope with high pressure situations Student nurses are being
left to look after seriously ill patients without supervision, a survey has
revealed. Research by the public sector union Unison has found that a serious
shortage of nurses in the NHS may be putting patients at risk. The survey
is released on the same day that an NHS Trust announced it was turning to
TV advertising in a bid to curb its staffing problems. The poll of more than
200 student nurses and midwives in London found that 45% had been left alone
in situations where they felt patient care was put at risk. The desperate
shortage of nurses cannot be used as an excuse for unsafe practice Christine
Hancock, Royal College of Nursing A Unison spokesman said: "Student nurses
are being left alone in intensive care wards and acute wards in hospitals
where people have just come back from operations. "They are understandably
terrified and we have very real concerns about this practice." "We are all
for students getting experience, particularly in their third year, but second
year students with very little experience are being left alone and that is
unacceptable." The union said that many trainee nurses are being regarded
as "an extra pair of hands" rather than students who need supervising. Student
nurses are paid just £2.60 an hour and the survey also found that 95% are
forced to work extra hours for private agencies to supplement their incomes.
Poor pay: Unison nursing student president Alice Dawnay said: "Not only are
students being paid less than the minimum wage, but they are also expected
to plug the gaps as staff in the NHS struggle to give patients the care they
deserve. "It is no wonder that 30% of nursing students in London end up dropping
out of their course within the first year as they try to juggle the demands
of their training together with the need to survive." London has one of the
worst nursing shortages in the country and the government has recently announced
a series of measures to tackle the problem. Royal College of Nursing general
secretary Christine Hancock said: "This is an alarming report". "Nursing students
are in hospital to learn, not to be left in charge of patients, many of whom
are seriously ill. "The desperate shortage of nurses cannot be used as an
excuse for unsafe practice." Television campaign: The TV advertising campaign
to be run by East Kent Hospitals is believed to be the first of its kind in
the UK. The trust, which manages five hospitals, hopes to lure back former
nurses and midwives who have left the profession by offering flexible working
conditions. The series of 14 adverts will feature nurses already working in
the local service. Nurse recruitment manager Hilary Brian said: "A single
half-page advert in the nursing press is very expensive and makes TV advertising
attractive, particularly compared to the cost of bringing in nurses from abroad."
Search BBC News Online Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:06:58
(BST)that should read " I HAVE HAD QUITE
ENOUGH...." Angela Smith - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 14:25:00
(BST)
WHAT A BLOODY SHAMBLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M SICK FED UP COMMING ONTO THIS SITE
TO FIND PETTY BLOODY SQUABBLING. I HAVE ALREADY STATED "DIVIDED WE FALL" AND
THE DIVISIONS ARE BECOMING ALL TOO OBVIOUS. I AM TRYING TO RUN A CAMPAIGN
THAT WILL INVOLVE ALL SECTIONS OF STUDENT NURSES BUT QUITE ENOUGH OF THE PETTY
ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE DOMINATED THIS SITE IN THE LAST FEW DAYS. THESE PEOPLE
KNOW WHO THEY ARE. ONE OF THEM I AM PARTICULARLY DISAPPOINTED IN THIS PERSON
SHOULD KNOW BETTER THEY ARE IN A POSITION WERE THEY WILL HAVE TO ROLL WITH
THE PUNCHES. IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN A POSITION OF OFFICE YOU HAVE GOT TO
LEARN THAT NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU OR THE WAY YOU DO THINGS.
THAT'S LIFE AND, IF YOU ARE GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO YOU LEARN TO IGNORE THOSE
PEOPLE AND GET ON WITH WHAT EVER IT IS YOU BELIEVE IN. WE ALL WANT THE SAME
THINGS AND FRANKLY WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET IT THIS WAY. I WANT PEOPLE TO HELP
ME WITH MY CAMPAIGN FOR STUDENT BURSARYS, BUT I DO NOT NEED NOR WANT PEOPLE
WHO CANT GET OVER THEMSELVES AND SEE THAT WE ARE ALL FIGHTING FOR THE SAME
THING. FOR EVERYONE ELSE'S SAKE GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 14:23:25
(BST)
YOUR INCREDIBLY THICK ARENT YOU? MAY AS WELL TRY AND PITCH THIS AT THE
INTELLECTUAL LEVEL THAT R.C.N. COUNCIL MEMBERS OPERATE AT. AGAIN YOU HAVE
CHALLENGED ME PRIVATELY ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT I WRITE ABOUT. I THINK THAT
IF YOU CAN READ (AND FOR ME THAT IS A PRETTY BIG IF) YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO ELUCIDATE THE FACT THAT I AM WRITING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO STUDENT
NURSES AND NURSING IN GENERAL. YOU CAN KEEP ALL YOUR CLOSET CHRISTIAN CLAP-TRAP,
IT SEEMS THAT MUCH AS MESSR'S PYTHON SUGGESTED THE "GREEK SHALL INHERIT THE
EARTH" AND INDEED "BLESSED ARE THE CHEESEMAKERS". I DO APOLOGISE FOR THE USE
OF REFERENCES WHICH YOU HAVE SOMEHOW CONTORTED INTO RACIST IDEALOTORY, CLEARLY
YOUR FANTASTIC COMMAND OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS ALLOWED YOU TO READ WHAT
THE HELL YOU LIKE INTO ANYTHING. JUDGING BY THE STRENGTH OF REACTION, YOU
SHOULD PERHAPS RESIGN THE TENUOUS POSITION YOU WERE VOTED (UNOPPOSED) INTO
(BUT NOT BY ME) AND CONCENTRATE YOUR EFFORTS ON ATTACKING THE VILE BRITISH
AND THEIR TREATMENT OF HCA'S FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. THIS WOULD SEEM MORE IMPORTANT
THAN ANY OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED. AS FAR AS STOPPING THE
HCA AND DOCTOR BASHING, THIS IS A STUDENT NURSING WEBSITE, A FACT YOU SEEM
TO HAVE AS LITTLE GRASP OF AS THE FACTS DISPLAYED HERE. YES I AM SURE THAT
YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TURN THIS AROUND AND PROBABLY HAVE ME BANNED FROM THE
R.C.N. FOR LIFE UNDER SOME DISTORTION OF THE RACE ETHICS LAWS. WELL DONE,
YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY STIFLED A DEMOCRATIC DEBATE WITH YOUR PARANOIA. YOU
HAVE PRODUCED THE INTELLECTUAL EQUIVALENT OF THE 'NECKLACE TIRE'. OH, I DID
LIVE IN AFRICA ALL RIGHT, IN A COUNTRY CALLED EGYPT, YOU HAVE PROBABLY NEVER
HEARD OF IT. I HAVE NOT BEEN TO TRANSKIE OR THE HIGH VELDT, NOR DO I POSSESS
A FOOT LONG BEARD AND A COMMAND OF THE AFRIKAANS LANGUAGE. I DO HAVE A 'FOREIGN'
NAME, SO I SUPPOSE PEOPLE WITH THE WIT AND INTELLIGENCE OF A CARROT COULD
READILY ASSUME THAT I WAS A BOER TRACKING THEM ACROSS THE WEB TO HUMILIATE
THEM. GOOD NEWS THEN, I AM NOT A BOER AND YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT PEOPLE
PORTRAYING YOU AS SOME SORT OF FEEBLE-MINDED, MOUTH FOAMING RANTER, YOU DO
THAT FOR YOURSELF. OH, DO I GET TO INSULT YOU ON A PERSONAL LEVEL NOW? PROBABLY
NOT, IF I INSULTED YOU BY CALLING YOU A COWARD LIAR ETC, THEN I COULD BE ACCUSED
OF RACISM AS AFTER ALL YOU ARE NOT OF THIS LAND, AND I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT
YOU WOULD AND PROBABLY HAVE USED THAT ONE A FEW TIMES. AS FOR JOINING YOU!
I WOULD RATHER ATTEMPT TO FORM A DEBATING SOCIETY WITH A HAMSTER Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 10:10:49
(BST)
APOLOGIES FOR BAD GRAMMAR My sincerest apologies for my bad grammar......English
is not my first language but I try my best. If I have repeated myself I am
sorry. I have to think Afrikaans and write in English so this is expressed
opposite from what is said very slightly.....I am sorry once again. Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 09:53:40
(BST)
This Ship has a Captain Tim, it would be good for you to read
what has been written before you go off on the same tangent. Roger and his
chums have attacked me from day one. To them the things they say my be humorous
to them but I am not laughing. He has constantly attacked me and he got his
mates as well. I stand by what I said and in no way have I said he was a racist.
His constant attacks on me was like being home.....or working in the last
work environment I worked in. Let me tell u something...racism is there and
everyone knows it....they hide behind this sick disease by the means of denial.
People are aware if they make blatant racist remarks, they can be prosecuted
or sued in a civil court of law.....racists do not say much or write much,
it is their actions speak louder than their words. (this is not referred to
or insinuating that Roger and his chums are racist. It is an explanation my
grandad gave me and my siblings in regards to make us to understand about
racism in South Africa. I am not using racism as a form of defence here. But
many people over here have attacked HCAs . The terminology they used and the
reference to Hitler. Now that is racism and xenophobia....as far as my knowledge
most HCAs are either black or from the Philipines.....the Philipinos are very
qualified degree or diploma people. They have to work in the wards from six
to twelve months as HCA before they are fully accepted as qualifed nurses,
even though in their country they are fully qualified nurses. There are lots
of students who talk down to these people. These people are human beings.....there
are some bad HCAs but not all of them. Look at the postings here about the
HCAs and you would see that all was filled with vermin and hatred. that attacks
was very personal. These people were being attacked with an opportunity to
defend themselves, then the placements were being attacked. Once again the
tone and language used was not polite, it was vulgar and rude. So Tim, these
people opened themselves to criticism and as u say it is about debating.....is
it not that these people cannot accept I believe in being fair no matter what
the situation is. I will not sit here and let these people attack a very hard
working group of people who are an asset to the nursing profession. We are
dependent on them. They do play a very important role in nursing...so do the
staff nurses. This expression comes to mind "THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE."
I am not anti students I have the best of students at heart but I will not
let a few to ruin a good relationship between HCAs, Staff Nurses and Students.
Take a good read on the website and see there is more hatred than good there.
I am aware that HCAs and Staff Nurses read these pages because I referred
them to it......this tirade has to stop and stop now.....before we alienate
ourselves totally.....I am not the enemy I am very disappointed that Roger
and his chums ahs chosen the path they have chosen Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 03:04:44
(BST)
A ship without a captain. Whoa, whoa, whoa. We really need to
get a grip of this web-site. What is going on in here? Suren, you cannot go
around labeling people as "sad, sick, racist, fascist, shallow and weak".
You certainly have the right to reply, especially if you don't agree with
someone else's point of view. But come on, as a representative of all students
it has to be more objective and you can definitely not single out individuals
with these sort of attacks. You have the privilege of access to certain corridors
of power that we as regular students don't, you will have to give us some
leeway if we don't have all the facts. Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:42:19
(BST)
Withdrawal number two I would again like to make clear that
I refute all allegations of racist behaviour. I would like to state my sadness
at this turn of events. I will henceforth cease to post replies on this website
in the hope that I may avoid any further allegations of this type. Yours sincerely,
Kris Nicol - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:27:35
(BST)
Response to Roger I have not labeled you a racist. It
is your constant attack on me. Look at your very first response to me to the
present one. You would see u have responded to what you have said to me. Well
maybe that would be nice to meet you face to face so we can sort this out.
I have asked u several times to meet and discuss this. Have you responded
to that. I addressed you via email..what did you do? you brought it into the
chat room. So mate you want to see Queens Council u are more than welcome
to. I have a intelligence complimented with common sense...so mate remember
you started this and you have made a lot of remarks that insinuated a lot
of things....so do what you have to do and I will defend it with my honour
and intergrity...good bye and good luck Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:25:18
(BST)
wow How much lower can you stoop Roger.....u
know the saying "EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE" do u really believe I
am using my position......Roger I timorously invited you to work with me on
issues....have you ever responded to those....have you ever said anything
in that regards......so please stop this feel sorry for me and I am sorry
attitude u have developed......before you pen the next attack on me think
carefully very carefully....from my very first posting you have attacked me......it
is like this I "WHEN A THIEF STEALS WOULD HE ADMIT THAT HE HAS STOLEN....NOPE"
think mate....think very hard and carefully about the accusations u have made
on this website.....I have sent u emails why are you dragging it into this
website....if I wanted to address u in public then I would have posted it
here....so if u have any honour or integrity u would stop this attack on me
and rather work with me on the real issues here...student funding, accommodation,
placements, travel costs, hardship fund, bad practice teachers and mentors......lets
use this wasted energy on more useful debates than cheap attacks on ward nurses
and HCAs....they are not responsible for our hardship lets focus on the real
issues than this silly childish tirade......I am still willing to work with
anyone who is willing to work with me for a better future both as a student
and nurse Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:17:55
(BST)
Statement I have been using this site to express
my opinions about student nursing. I have leveled criticism where I believe
it was warranted. If I felt safe to continue contributing to this web site,
I would continue to do so. However, I feel that the conditions are being set
to allow me to be portrayed as some kind of rabid racist. In this profession
there is little room for bigots and I am sure that once labeled It would be
hard to shake the tarnished image. Julius Ceasar said that "it takes a man
a lifetime to build a reputation and but a moment to lose it". A wiser man
than I for sure. I will not accept the libelous and scurrilous commentary
that is being made against me without seeking some form of redress. If Suren
continues to pursue his present course labeling me as racist and cowardly,
he may find himself face to face with if not me, then certainly a Queen's
Council. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:11:30
(BST)
Hey Roger Are u this sad....are u not man enough
to face me one to one...are u so desperate for attention......u know what
I will play along with you ok.....let me amuse you and your chums....seems
like u guys lack humour so let me humour you.......you start a topic and I
will try my best to humour you and your chums....wow......when where u in
South Africa and for how long.....what province is Natal in and what is the
capital Transkie Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:06:38
(BST)
Lets meet Roger Hey lets meet face to face and sort
this out........do u really think you are making me look like a fool by attacking
me in the website.....this just shows that you are man with no substance.....if
u are willing to dish it out then be able to receive it.....why are you hiding
behind the website and a few chums.....are u not man enough to meet face to
face and discuss this.....I am not using racism as an excuse I am just stating
the facts here about how people behave....and your behaviour says it all.....why
not debate the real issues here....why not use the same energy and your wisdom
and improve the conditions for nursing students....why are you not addressing
the other issues I have approached you about your knowledge of the law etc.....if
you really feel hard done by your placement in the ward make a formal complaint
and use that procedure to get justice for yourself, or the accusations u made
here are false with no substance.....did these things really happen....I am
finding it difficult to believe you now.......if you was really victimised
in the ward...make that formal complaint and let the hospital investigate
and discipline this person or persons...we do not want other students to suffer
the same faith do we now......so if u really want to help nursing students,
then make that complaint and the allegations you have made are very serious......so
think very carefully before you put ink to paper Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:02:37
(BST)
More reason from Suren Suku What a coward are u scared to meet me
face to face......u think I am scared of you.......once again u have showed
your true colours....it shows how shallow and weak you are...... you know
nothing about apartheid and racism.....you are a free rider Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:00:59
(BST)
Question? Im sorry but I feel hurt. In no way
was I a racist. In no way do I perpetrate the bigoted views that Suren suggests
I do. I refute totally all allegations of racism against me and ask a question
of all the readers and contributors to this site. If you believe that anything
I said in any way could be understood to be racist towards Suren in any way,
if I have denigrated him on the basis of his culture, colour, race or religious
beliefs, then I will retract everything that I have said about him and will
write him an unreserved apology. If you believe as I do, that he is being
over sensitive even zealous in his attacks, and if you believe that all I
did was express my opinions on his viewpoints and his standpoints then you
will be as puzzled as I am by his outburst. I seek not to vilify him, only
to engage him in a debate (which is what I believed this site was for). I
wanted to exchange arguments with him and feel very strongly that I have been
wrongly accused of something I did not, and have not done. I apologise to
all if indeed you believe I am guilty of these statements, but I believe that
I have carried myself in the correct manner at all times. Yours sincerely, Kristian Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:58:56
(BST)
Withdrawal I should like to withdraw from this
site and the paranoid delusions of one of the main contributor. It is an offence
in this democratic state to accuse someone of racism without foundation or
substance. Offence was not intended, even if it was taken. As an elected representative
of the RCN and ANS, you should take a long hard look at what you are writing,
it is quite simply rhetoric. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:56:14
(BST)
FOR AN IDIOT WHO HIDES BEHIND
ANONIMITY WOW ..... IF U WAS HALF THE MAN OR LADY
YOU WOULD NOT HIDE BEHIND ANONIMITY....IT WOULD BE MY PLEASURE TO MEET YOU
FACE TO FACE AND DISCUSS THIS....ARE U A RACIST....HAVE I TOUCHED A NERVE
IN YOUR SAD LIFE THAT YOU CHOOSE TO HIDE YOUR IDENTITY......YOU ARE A COWARD
AND WILL ALWAYS BE ONE...ACTUALLY I DO HAVE A SENSE OF HUNMOUR. IF U SAY MAKING
BIGOTTED REMARKS WITH RACIST OVERSTONES IS HUMOUR. THEN I AM SORRY I DO NOT
FIND THAT AMUSING......IF THIS MAKES YOU LAUGH AND A FULL HUMAN BEING GOOD
LUCK TO YOU.....IT WHAT A MODEL CITIZEN YOU ARE Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:49:26
(BST)
Suren, if this is balanced... WELL HERE IS A THING!! I WROTE THE FOLLOWING
MESSAGE TO SUREN TO STATE MY CASE IN WHAT I HOPED TO BE A BALANCED WAY. Suren
I don't even think of this country as my home, I have lived more in the Middle
East than in England despite what it says on my passport! I am of immigrant
stock, German Irish if your interested but the one thing I am not is a bigot.
I find that your equating me to a Boer Vortrekker is more than a little out
of place. I visited South Africa when it was a fascist state and I also lived
in Africa as a foreigner. The lessons I learned was an understanding of the
gentle beauty of the Africans I met, with their easy humour and joyous way
of living. I learned to appreciate Islam, Coptics, Greek Orthodox, Christian,
Fallange, Jewish and Maronite faiths. Whatever happened in your past must
and may affect your life, but my past affects mine and I am not prepared to
be labeled. My point is simple, in this country, the waves of racial resentment
run through all walks of life. If people constantly defend themselves as individuals
with the arguments of racial oppression; then all it serves to do is make
racial oppression a cheaper thing. That is not in the interests of anyone.
I THOUGHT THAT THIS MIGHT CALM HIM AND ALLOW HIM TO GET AWAY FROM THIS PERSECUTION
COMPLEX HE IS BUSY DEVELOPING. I GOT THIS IN REPLY, THIS IS THE BALANCED AND
REASONED VOICE OF OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE, SLEEP WELL.. you are a very
sick man........where do u know me from ......it is the likes of you that
makes the racists and fascist to prosper......you are a very sad person....very
sad.....lets meet face to face and sort this out..........u hide behind a
computer in the comfort of your home....and think you are god....well matey
u are just a sad person who uses the Internet to vent your anger and frustrations
here......well lets meet face to face and sort this out.....from day you have
been attacking me .......so put your money where your mouth and meet me face
to and say what you are saying on the websites I WILL NOW SHOW WHAT I REPLIED
WITH Nice, like your style, very balanced, very open. Good to know that the
future of nursing is such safe hands, perhaps you should post your last missive
from me on the chat site. Because unless you work out some way of retracting
what you just sent me it will be there in 20 minutes time for all to see your
true colours. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:39:09
(BST)
WOW WHAT A RESPONSE I know I said I would not come back
I have to say this mush the both of you meet me face to face and lets discuss
this further. By the way Roger there is more instituionalised racism in this
country and anywhere else. At least in South Africa they were honest but here
it is all hidden in the appearance. Should I remind you about the late Stephen
Lawrence and the McPherson report and also the follow up admissions of this
type of racism within the various government departments which includes the
NHS. I have witnessed racism in the wards whereby white English staff nurses
abuse black and Philipino nurses and the manner they talk down to them and
abuse them. So don't you and Kris lecture me here. racism is here and it will
always be here. Racism comes from all sides....black on white....white on
white .....white on black....so people please stop finding excuses here and
have cheap shots at me.......Roger take a good look at yourself......think
and reflect about the things you have written on this website...the people
you have attacked and belittled without giving them a chance.....and you Kris
...look at your postings......so stop your bigotry and live a real life.....it
is easy to sit behind a computer and air your views.......lets meet in person
and talk to me.....ok please do that.....I am willing to meet you anywhere....name
the date time and place.......u see Ihave seen enough racists and bigots in
my life time to recognise one........I FIND THIS RATHER AMUSING THAT HOW ROGER
AND KRIS PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME ON.....BUT THEY
WOULD NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES HERE...THAT ISSUE IS ABOUT FUNDING
AND PLACEMENTS....I HAVE ASKED ROGER MANY TIMES TO WORK WITH ME ON THIS ONE.....HAS
HE AGREED OR MADE ANY ATTEMPT TO SAY LETS MEET AT THE CONFERENCE AND TALK
NO......HE DID NOT...I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS LAW KNOWLEDGE AND HAS HE RESPONDED
NO......SO ROGER PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND DO SOMETHING ......
MONEY TALKS BANANA WALKS....IN YOUR RECENT POSTINGS U MADE ACCUSATIONS BOUT
BEING ILLTREATED AND HARD DONE BY THE SISTER IN YOUR WARD....SEEMS LIKE THIS
PERSON HAS BREACHED SOME ETHICS AND CODES YOU SHOULD MAKE A FORMAL COMPLAINT
ABOUT THIS INCIDENT SO THAT IT CAN BE INVESTIGATED AND THIS PERSON IF FOUND
GUILTY SHOULD BE DISCIPLINED. WE CANNOT HAVE THIS GOING ON CAN WE. WHAT ABOUT
THE NEXT STUDENT...WOULD WE WANT THIS PRACTICE TO CARRY ON..AFTER ALL WE ARE
ALL WHINGING ABOUT BAD PRACTICE IN THE PLACEMENTS....IF WE DO NOT REPORT THEM
HOW ARE WE GOING TO STOP THIS...SO ROGER AND ALL THE OTHERS WHO HAVE PROBLEMS
WITH PLACEMENTS....USE THE COMPLAINTS PROCEDURE AND LETS PUT A STOP TO THIS
PRACTICE...IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS AGAISNT YOUR
PLACEMENTS AND YOUR MENTORS OR STAFF NURSES ON THE WARD.....LETS OUT PEN TO
PAPER AND LETS MAKE IT KNOWN TO THEM THAT WE WOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS BEHAVIOUR...AFTER
ALL IT IS YOUR FUTURE IN THEIR HANDS.....IT IS EITHER YOU PUT UP OR SHUT UP......IF
YOU ALL REALLY FEEL THIS HARD DONE BY YOUR PLACEMENTS AND PRACTICE MENTORS
REPORT THEM....OR STOP THIS BIGOTRY.....now u can write all the nasty things
you want to.......I cannot be bothered anymore to respond to childish snipes
at me....with or wihout your help NURSING STUDENTS WILL PROSPER....REMEMBER
THERE IS 41,000 NURSING STUDENTS AND JUST A HANDFUL OF YOU...WHEN THEY SEE
WHAT I STAND FOR AND SEE THE CHANGES .....THEY WOULD JUDGE ME ON THAT AND
NOT ON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE......I MERELY RESPONDED TO YOUR POSTINGS...SEEMS
LIKE U DO NOT LIKE THE REPLIES YOU GET U ATTACK ME AND TRY TO MAKE ME THE
BAD GUY....WELL THUS FAR I HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR UNITY AND WORKING TOGETHER......HAVE
ANY OF YOU SAID YES WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER......THAT SAYS A LOT...RACISM
IS NOT WHAT WRITTEN OR SAID BY A PERSON....IT IS THE ACTION THAT SPEAKS LOUDER
THAN THEIR WORDS....GOOD BYE AND GOD BLESS....NOW LEAVE ME ALONE I GOT BETTER
THINGS TO DO THAN RESPOND TO SILLY POSTINGS LIKE THESE..... Suren Suku - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:31:37
(BST)
Racial undertones??? I am an avid reader of the messages
posted on this page and have been for a number of months. I am due to start
my training in 2 weeks! I would just like to add my bit towards the discussion.
Firstly, Suren - get a life! No one on here is getting at you personally,
and I find it really difficult to find racial abuse in any of the messages
posted on here. For you to attack another member like you have is pathetic.
We are all in the same boat, fighting to get what we deserve. I have one other
comment about the attitudes of qualified nurses. I am currently working as
a bank nursing auxiliary to try to get myself through training. While I agree
that there are nurses on the ward which I work on that really should wake
up and change their attitude, it is us, as student nurses to change those
attitudes when we qualify. We will be setting examples to the student nurses
of the future. I for one will try my hardest to help any student to become
a better nurse. I won't ramble any longer. Take care everyone and good luck
with your studies. Heather <Leheluja@aol.com> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:20:26
(BST)
Now there's a man in need of
a sense of humour transplant! Lynette dont worry it seems as if our
esteemed colleague 'saint' Suren Suku has a complete lack of a sense of humour.
Perhaps he needs to lighten up a bit and stop being so bloody precious. Not
everything in the world revolves around him. And as for your sense of humour
it seems fine to me. Perhaps Suren does get up to something nocturnally that
we need to worry about. Perhaps that is why he is so sensitive. If humour
is a crime then you'll have to shoot me first. Suren sort your worthy but
sad life out and get a sense of humour!
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:04:09
(BST)
Suren Grow Up... Suren, whilst I respect your right to
an opinion, I must protest at your tone. To call a fellow nursing student
the equivalent of the Afrikaners back home is totally unacceptable. It seems
to me in my humble view that you have been ready to take offense at anything
that you disagree with and then if people further disagree with your viewpoint
you call it racism. This smacks very much of petty childishness. If you don't
agree with me then I am going home. There are no racists here and while I
accept your points that there is an awful lot of negativity on this site it
is because there is an awful lot of negativity in Nursing! If people cannot
have there say without having people overreact (which you are) then what is
the future of democracy? Democracy involves the stating of viewpoints to which
you may not agree so what would you have happen, that all discussion stops
encase people somehow injure your sensibilities? Its about time you realised
that not everyone in this world agrees with you and that just because they
have a different viewpoint to you it does not make them a racist, it does
not even mean that they don't like you. It just means that they hold a different
point of view. I suggest that you stop being so paranoid and seeking conspiracies
where there are none and grow up. Variety is the spice of life and any democratic
society needs a difference of opinion. If you are ever to survive on the wards,
my friend, you need to toughen up. Stop being so sensitive. If you are this
sensitive on a nursing student chat website god knows what you must be like
in the flesh... Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:47:44
(BST)
Trump card Why is it that you can manage to read
racial overtones into EVERYTHING? Bad news, I have lived as a 'foreigner'
for over 15 years of my life on four different continents and would like to
think that it has helped me to be supportive and understanding of people of
different cultures in this country. In fact, I have had the pleasure of being
told this by some of the African students on my course, something that made
me feel more than a little proud. I justified my support of them as being
reciprocal, as I had been treated with the same courtesy when I lived in Africa.
WELL DONE if you intend to fight the good fight for student nurses but if
when you are doing it you constantly take exception to anything that could
be remotely extrapelated as being even vaguely racist in inference, then you
are going to let more than a few people down. I bemused by the fact that in
almost every instance where you have been the recipient of criticism in your
'professional' capacity, you have reverted to accusing those who have leveled
criticism against you as being racist? It is beginning to sound like a well
worn trump card! If you achieve even a quarter of the things you are setting
out to do then you will be able to depend on the loyal service and respect
of ALL student nurses. Why is it that you seek to have free ranging arguments
with people, then recoil behind an argument which conveniently portrays all
those who would disagree as narrow minded bigots? I have had the opportunity
to assist people of different races, religions and beliefs on many occasions
and one of the reasons I find myself taking a nursing course is that I am
a great fan of philanthropy. Travel has taught me that we are the same under
different skins and with different ways. As far as cheap shots go, yours has
been the cheapest! Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:37:45
(BST)
GOODBYE Just want to say thank you to all of
you for your postings and thoughts on various hardships experienced by yourselves
and many students. I have taken all on board about your experiences and treatment
at these placements. I am not going to promise you all the world and deliver
nothing. But I do know I am going to try my damnedest to get us all a fair
and proper increase in the bursary and grant issue. Regards to placement I
am going to campaign vigorously for better induction's, communications and
more link tutor involvement. Will try and get more textbooks in the library,
more lecturer and tutorial support. I cannot say I will be able to deliver
but at least I would try and who knows we might just get at least 50% of that
which is better than nothing at the moment. As in regards to Rogers remarks
I think you should go back and read all your remarks and personal attacks
on people here. May I remind you that I lived in a racist society for 30 years
of my life and was subjected to this vile behavior at least 20 years of it
, i.e. from the age of 10. So please don't you lecture me and suggest that
I am stirring racial tension here. You should read your postings and the manner
and tone you have written them and when you can understand your own posting
then meet me and explain to me what they mean. You are making me paranoid
on these pages. Your ranting and raving reminds me of the Afrikaners back
home. I have invited you to work with me. You seem to have the knowledge and
you seem to be factual in what you say so lets put your words into action.
Well everyone WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE NOW. ARE WE GOING TO WHINGE ON THIS
WEBSITE ALL THE TIME OR ARE WE GOING TO UNITE AND RUN A SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGN
FOR A FAIR AND SUBSTANTIAL INCREASE? NOW IT IS UP TO YOU. IF ANYONE WANTS
TO JOIN ME AND SUPPORT ME ON THESE ISSUES I AM WILLING TO WORK WITH YOU ALL.
BUT LETS STOP THIS HCA, SISTER, STAFF NURSE AND JUNIOR DOCTOR BASHING. AFTER
ALL WHEN YOU ALL QUALIFY YOU WILL MOST PROBABLY END UP WORKING WITH THE VERY
PEOPLE YOU ALL DESPISE. I AM NOT GOING TO RETURN TO THIS WEBSITE ANYMORE.
I AM JUST TIRED OF THIS PETTY TIRADES AND NEGATIVITY AND I AM NOT GOING TO
SUBJECT MYSELF TO COWARDLY ATTACKS BY PEOPLE WHO DO NOT EVEN KNOW ME TO ATTACK
WHAT I SAY. PLEASE REFLECT ON YOUR POSTINGS AND SEE ARE THEY FAIR AND IF THEY
ARE THEN I APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE FOR MAKING THIS STATEMENT BUT I AM NOT GOING
TO BE PARTY TO SUCH BIGOTRY AND UNFAIRNESS TO PEOPLE WHO WILL BE MY COLLEAGUES
IN TWO YEARS TIME. GOD BLESS YOU ALL AND GOOD LUCK IN YOUR FUTURE..BUT PLEASE
KEEP THIS HATRED AND YOU ALL WILL FEEL VERY LONELY IN THE REAL WORLD. THIS
WEBSITE IS JUST A MEDIUM AND I AM AWARE OF NURSES, DOCTORS AND HCAs WHO READ
THIS SITE AND ARE VERY HURT AND DISAPPOINTED IN THE BASHING AND ABUSE THEY
GET ON THIS SITE. SUREN SUKU Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com> - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:04:15
(BST)
Looking for a job Does anyone know of any web sites with
a good employment section? Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 21:58:48
(BST)
Petitions and just general chit
chat One thing on petitions if those of you
who already have petitions know of other student nurses at other unis who
might do petitions please contact me and let me know and I can send them one
too. I want to keep track of which unis are involved so that uni's are not
being saturated and others don't get at all. Sorry for having a go at junior
Dr's last night but the two on the ward I'm on just now are, well I can't
say it politely are bloody useless. Hope those of you that are going to conference
soon have a good time. Some of you might be interested to know that I am also
in collaboration with one of the national Scottish news papers and I am hopefully
going to see the three labour MP's and the numerous MsP's as well as Alex
Salmond (out going leader of the SNP) who is an mp for one of the local regions
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 17:10:04
(BST)
Racialist overtones is becoming
massive Suren, delicate though this may be,
but you seem to be finding racial overtones in places where they clearly do
not exist. This will only serve to dilute the message and reinforce some of
the negative stereotypes that pervade our society Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 16:49:57
(BST)
oh and.. Anne-Marie I have to agree with Roger,
you are sharing. We all have a lot to say I will make it clear that I am aware
that I maybe better off than most, due to my circumstances but it still is
not good enough. Last year I employed a nanny to look after my three children
the bill added up to £870 per month and my bursary well need I say did not
match that! and my husband's wages were rubbish we ran up thousands of pounds
of debt in three months so my husband gave up work to look after the children.
The bursary they have awarded me for my dependent husband and three children
is £2490 pa ..I should be grateful maybe, but it's not just me struggling
and so that is why I feel the need to rant on too! so don't stop! Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 15:07:24
(BST)
OH DEAR OHDEAR I want to make a public apology to Suren
who sent me an email. It would seem that you were unamused by my referring
to your nocturnal habits....I was just trying to place a bit of friendly humour
into the rather passionate rant that I had, I was only commenting on your
message that was five o'clock in the morning which I thought was quite a late
time of day! I am sorry that some how you got from this that I am racist because
I MOST DEFINITELY AM NOT!!! I am sorry for causing you offense I won't do
it again.. I guess I have a dry sense of humour which doesn't cut it with
everyone ! sorry sorry sorry. Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 14:51:44
(BST)
Linda Linda Sorry about the gentle chiding,
I think the question should sound more like, "How is it so many good people
have struggled for so long to achieve so little". I think that in the end
all the arguments can be distilled and eventually they end up in the same
place. The present government and all its predecessors have had the distinct
advantage when it comes to changing anything. They never had to find the edge,
during negotiations, they already knew that nurses "talked the talk" but most
certainly would not "walk the walk". Any lingering doubts could be put to
rest, when they considered that this was so central to nursing's hierarchy
that it had become enshrined in the constitution. Very few negotiations begin
with one of the parties announcing that in the event of its requests being
ignored and the wishes and the will of its members being discounted, that
it will be obliged to do nothing. In fact it will carry on regardless, and
in fact if this becomes an annual event, so will the response. I was tempted
to use a canine analogy but the RSPCA will be after us if we keep talking
about toothless, incontinent canines. I am fully aware of the counter-argument
about patients needs, but that has now been taken out and dusted off once
too often. As I work on the wards I continue to collect stories and experiences
that tell me that patients already suffer. If I qualify, the one single thing
that it will mean for me, is that I will not have to stand before another
patient making someone else's excuses. To watch a terminal patient writhe
in unspeakable agony because the Staff were 'too busy' will hopefully be something
I can consign to the past. It can live there with the missed washes, unchanged
dressings, lack of human contact, tearful terror and all the other things
that as a student you see right up close and personal. So what I am saying
is that the patients are suffering already, more than enough. The state of
nursing and the nature it has taken means that wards are short-staffed, populated
by the walking wounded. These people are not uncaring; they are trying to
protect themselves from the reality of what they are a part of. There is altogether
too much gallows humour floating around these days, a tell tale sign of stress
and coping at work. What is to be done? Well the government needs more nurses
and quick and public reaction to the rape of the former commonwealth countries
suggests that the avenues open are narrowing. The result is a free for all,
"yes, you too can be a nurse". Taking on board the HCA's means that we have
got the EN's back, cadets means that we have our very own YTS scheme. Now,
what characterises these options, availability, cheapness, flexibility (when
I was in management that meant you could fire them easily) and the removal
of the higher educational emphasis. So what is nursing going to do? They will
probably meet with the government of the day and say that they feel that these
are ideas that have merit. From cadet to queen is not just a dream eh Christine?
The increasing incidence of people in the workplace that are not 'qualified'
will probably be glossed over, and at a time when American nurses are fighting
to have visual uniform distinction from their unqualified colleagues. They,
as I have said before, have had LPN's and LVN's for a while now, strange how
they seem to be feeling undermined? While the people I talk to say that the
experiences they had as 17-18 year old 1st year students have left scar, we
are talking about putting the Nintendo generation into care settings. Well,
as I have said it is cheap. Government at least can relax about one element
of the plan, the fact that no matter what nurses think, and a lot of the ones
that I have talked to are less than thrilled about either option; nothing
will be done about it by or for nurses. And in the rare event of something
being done, they can be safe in the knowledge that nurses are not going to
stay home today, unlike the Police or Fire Brigade have done in the past.
My solution, it is easy enough, follow the Irish it took them three days and
they did not lose an ounce of public credibility. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 14:35:19
(BST)
It was worse in my day... What was it about Nursing that made
me give up my dreams of doing an english or history degree and become one
of the overworked and underfunded 'saints' of the nursing profession? I often
lie awake at night wondering why I did it and why I choose to give up my right
to a life (unwillingly) and why did I ever involve myself in the slow torture
that is student nursing? Im sure all student nurses realise what im talking
about. It is all very well campaigning for ideals and higher levels of practice
and surely 'every thing we do should be to drive nursing forward'when I cant
seem to think much more about the fact that I may not be able to feed myself
for the next week. I cannot tell you of the times that I have lain in an insomniac
state counting and recounting just how much money I will have till payday,
I cannot say how often I have lain awake feeling sick to the stomach of being
poor and knowing that there is not a damn thing I can do about it. I came
into nursing for somewhat altruistic reasons (I hope) I believed that I could
do some good. Fresh from college I hoped to put back something into society,
I wanted to meet people and to perhaps help or even sometimes just share the
things that made them unique. For the first year of my nursing course I believed
that I could still change things, that people would see my enthusiasm and
seek to help me learn to become one of the best Nurses I could. When I reached
the second year however, reality was starting to bite. Financial considerations
were beginning to dull my enthusiasm and I found myself being ground down
more and more by the system. I found that it was hard to balance life and
work and then study, so I withdrew and concentrated on my studies and I felt
myself becoming more and more disappointed with the way I was being trained.
Allegedly taking place in a higher education environment it seemed that anyone
who differed from the views held by those of the establishment was remorselessly
crushed. We were always told in theory that we were no longer the doctors
handmaidens of old that we were thinking, questioning,practitioners and yet
I found that anyone who did question was branded a troublemaker both in college
and on placement. I just want to know why we do this was the question I asked,
why should do we continue to bicker amongst ourselves and why do we subject
our students to conditions like this? And when I asked there was no reply.
It seems to me as Roger has said before that Nursing is stuck in some kind
of ritualistic time warp. We musnt change is the cry I hear uttered, we have
always done it this way. In my day it was much worse. Does this statement
seek to justify to me all the times when I have felt low following a shift
where someone has died and I have not received even the smallest of debriefs?
Or the time after I saw someone die and I cried and was told to pull myself
together because I was a nurse. Does this seek to console me or ease my worries
about another assignment that is due in and that I wont get the result for,
for a following three months drawing the whole process out into some kind
of acceptable Chinese water torture? Now I'm in my third year I am hardened
to the unfairness of it all and like the people I used to despise I readies
that when I qualify I wont make an iota of difference. I will continue the
whole self perpetuating cycle, I will crush those who seek to change and I
will always seek to keep things the same. After all it was worse in my day...
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 12:44:29
(BST)Roger, I enjoyed reading your last posting
even if it is now 2 a.m. Did you never wonder why, if you could change things
when you became a prefect, no one else had bothered too in the preceding 100
years or so? Most people are happy to continue a system, no matter how unfair,
because it is custom and practice, no one likes to rock the boat, because
the prefects (ward sisters??) made their lives miserable when they were juniors
they were determined to make someone else go through the same pain they had
been through. A nurse I have a great deal of respect for once said to me that
"nurses eat their own young" and sadly I knew what she meant. I would like
to believe that we are not the only profession to behave in this way, that
other professions have their own sort of "sluice room politics". It takes
someone different and willing to make themselves unpopular to be a "tall poppy"
and buck the system. Although your training is very different from mine I
can empathise with a lot of what you are saying, I nearly had my training
discontinued on a number of occasions, and failed numerous ward assessments,
my final one at the end of three years because "Student nurse Bailey does
not assume the subservient position expected of student nurses on this ward",
I had that framed and on my wall for ages. I guess I was lucky to have an
ally in the bloke who was head of my school of nursing. It sounds as if you
have not found a similar ally but you have nearly finished your training despite
this. What would be distressing is if you decide when you have qualified that
you were so disillusioned you did not want to continue in nursing. I hope
you stick around and continue trying to change things. BTW someone earlier
asked if messagers here never sleep, I'd like to think the only thing I ever
had in common with Margaret Thatcher was that I can get by on 4 hours kip
a night. Linda B****y - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 02:27:07
(BST)
Flying feathers... This one has been in my heart and in
my head for such a long time that it has become one of my favorite insomnia
fueled self -debates. Throughout the two and a half years or so that I have
been training, I have repeatedly come across the attitude that the course
I am studying, Dip H.E. Nursing or P2K, is in some way inferior to that which
preceded it. The impression that is given, often without invitation, is that
I will qualify as a less practically skilled nurse than my predecessors. This
produces a series of questions for me, not about the course but about those
who are willing to cast dispersion upon it. While I am working on the wards,
I am supposed to be receiving on the job training. Therefore, surely if at
the end of three years of such training I am short of practical skills, to
whom should the blame be attached? Presumably, it would be reasonable to assume
that I should take some of the responsibility, as it could be argued that
I had not applied myself while on placement. However, I would contend that
it is indeed the very people who point the accusing finger that need to shoulder
some of the responsibility. If the Staff on the wards are happy to utilise
me as an HCA, why should they then be surprised when the training produces
qualified nurses with HCA style skills? Surely, by solving the short term
problem of staffing levels by utilising students as HCA's and consequently
failing to allow them to develop appropriate skills, they are failing not
only the students but also nursing itself? I worked part-time in my first
year and had a conversation while at my other place of work with a senior
nurse. She also lectured and complained that she was tired from marking assignments,
to which I retorted that I was tired of writing them. In the ensuing conversation,
she condemned the practical inadequacies of P2K trained nurses. When I replied
that if anyone was to blame, then perhaps the nurses who were failing to teach
students on the wards and the managers who used them as anything other than
potential nurses, would be good candidates. Needless to say, this was not
warmly received! I have just finished another placement today, during which
one of my colleagues had her shift changed (without notice), as the ward found
itself without a housekeeper for the day. Rarely would there be more than
one HCA on per shift over the weekend, no matter what level of qualified staffing
existed. The inevitable shortfalls were made up by students, and when questioned
the stated ward policy was to give the staff, both qualified and unqualified,
weekends off wherever possible. This I was told was because they had to work
on the ward full time and not for just eight weeks. This presumably did not
take into account the fact that student nurses could be found on the ward
for up forty-eight weeks of the year? Student nurses on the ward could be
expected to work one weekend in two, unlike the qualified staff. As usual,
when this was raised the inevitable answer was "it was worse when I trained".
I will let you into a secret, I went to a public school as a boy and boarded.
It was pretty fierce stuff, shades of Tom Brown's schooldays with bullying
and ridiculous regulations policed by over-zealous little tyrants. When my
year approached the time we could start to dish out the punishment, I was
easily as excited about it as my colleagues. When I became a prefect I reveled
in my newfound authority and instantly stopped all the ritualistic rubbish
that was going on. The idea spread quickly and before you knew it, all those
precious traditions were consigned to the past. As a group, we reasoned that
if we had hated what was being done to us, surely those that followed would
have felt the same. Bit of a homespun homily I know but it illustrates why
it is that I cannot understand why nursing cannot achieve this. It seems that
when the uniform changes, so does the person. Not every time and even if does,
it does so in varying degrees but it does. Well, that should have put the
cat among the pigeons, and I am sure that those who do make students feel
welcome and valued will be the ones who write in to defend themselves. They
need not, if they know that they are doing that already, they should have
no need. It is those who aren't that I would love to hear from or about, they
are the ones who are producing poor practical practitioners. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 01:44:08
(BST)
finals well folks....it seems like its taken
forever to get to this stage of my training, but its finally arrived. I sit
my finals on the 14th of September!! why do I no longer feel excited! is there
anyone else out there also approaching this torture. Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com> - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 00:16:25
(BST)
PLACEMENTS AND FUNDING WOW, I am really impressed by the passion
and honesty that is being expressed on this website in regards to funding
and placement problems. WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? it would be good if all
of us stick together and lobby our local MPs, sign the petition that Angela
Smith has out. I have already distributed this petition to people I know both
who are nurses and students. The more signatures we get the better it is.
We got to be united on this. Lets put or political beliefs aside and work
together in negotiating a good deal for all students; the present and the
future. Those of you who will be graduating soon good luck for the future.
But please we need your support all the time. Lets not stop believing in what
you have expressed so passionately about. Lets stay united and especially
the final year students we need your wisdom and support to lead us into the
next generation of nursing. Rob I understand u are graduating soon. As you
have so passionately made your points and your well informed postings. We
would benefit from your wisdom in our fight for a fair bursary increase. Show
us the way to fight this monster and defeat it. Rob I invited you to work
with me in getting a campaign going in regards to the various issues discussed
on this page. You have made some very valid points and you also seem to know
the letter of the law. I guess with your law background this would benefit
our campaign. (I am sorry if I misunderstood your posting where u mentioned
about you studying law). we need people like yourself and many others on this
website who is passionate about student funding and treatment during placements.
Friends we have the words.....now lets turn those words into "WORDS INTO ACTION".......lets
call our campaign "WORDS INTO ACTION" suren suku Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 23:24:18
(BST)
Ouch! One of those days eh? I have had one
as well, having hurt my back (third student from my course to do so in as
many days) while having a 6'4" 18st patient fall on me. Went in for two days
and today it was too bad, so I asked to fill out an incident form ect... Net
result, sent home! That would be nice but it was my last day on the ward and
they wee "sorry that they would have to write in as a sickie", as I had turned
up unfit for work... I just keep thinking that if I can ever qualify I will
try not to be quite as miserable as they are, it almost keeps me going! In
the meantime hang in, hopefully the next will not be as savage Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 23:06:30
(BST)
Bloody Junior doctors All I can say Is you are damm lucky
Anita I have just spent the last seven hours chasing doctors for discharge
letters for patients some of whom went home two days ago and some o whom need
prescriptions for tomorrow and now wont get home because they "could not be
bothered" (their words not mine) to write them and then getting abuse from
them for asking for the letters more than twice in the space of two hours.
I then got into trouble from a staff nurse from the day surgery ward because
I did not take a patients case notes with me I did not even know where they
were it turned out the affor mentioned Junior Dr. had taken them to lunch
with him. The said nurse did not even apologise People wonder why we drop
out ?? well I tell you I could quiet easily jack it in tomorrow Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 22:46:00
(BST)
Where are all the Scottish nurses? I still have not received any offers
for petitions from any Scottish uni's yet this upsets me a little. Come on
people where are your fighting spirits? Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 22:24:54
(BST)
Im not Gengis Kahn Honest!! The last time I logged on there wasn't
half the messages there is now. It took me ages to read all of the post, my
phone bill is going to be huge! Im just writing to say how hugely impressed
I am with this debate and to perhaps move it on a stage further. Student funding
at the present time is abysmal and a return to employee status may be overdue.
And before all you RCN 'spaniels' rush to lynch me for being a luudite and
the nursing equivalent of Gengis Kahn I am not against nursing taking place
in a higher education environment but at the moment the higher education route
seems to have failed us both in a financial and a being supported whilst learning
sense. I think that carrying out a job as taxing and as difficult as Nursing
whilst studying full time and not getting paid a living wage is a damning
incitement of the present state of affairs. What other higher education course
expects its students to do this? And why oh why don't I have lots of time
of over the summer? (Dreaming of a hot beach!) The situation at the moment
seems to reek of exploitation and strangely enough isn't that the cry that
is issued when anyone suggests we return to employee status? Doesn't working
on a ward with only two other members of staff (well apart from those of us
working in rehab hospitals!) doesn't this seem a tad exploitative? At least
if we were employees then we would be covered by employee law and entitled
to at least the minimum wage and also ward mangers might have to think twice
about staffing the wards with students if they qualified for weekend pay rates...
Still if anyone can think of a way of better paying students while still protecting
them I would be glad to hear it (mind you so would the Government!!!) As my
friend Suren says Unity through Strength or something approaching that anyway.
P.s im not a member of Unison honest! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 20:37:11
(BST)
My first placement I am 2 weeks into my first 4 week placement
and how lucky I am!!! The hospital I am at is a rehab type place and at the
moment they are OVER-STAFFED!!!! One of the two wards is closed for a while
for re-wiring and it is great. The staff have loads of time and patience to
teach, I've been on ward rounds with the doctors who have taken the time to
explain each patient's condition and why they are so. I've also dealt with
my first death, attended case conferences, done my first injections, temps,
pulses and I am able to go up to the study room in the afternoons to do some
assignment work. I feel that I have gained the trust of the patents and have
a good relationship with them. I am able to attend physio assessments, OT
assessments and pretty much visit any department I want to. I realise that
I must make the most of this and that I will probably not get another placement
like this one, what bliss it would be if this was the norm. Every member of
staff have had something to teach, we have a lot to learn from HCA's, even
though I have been one and I can't praise them all enough. I feel as though
I've learnt a wealth of information. The only downside is that I am holding
a job down too which can be quite difficult but luckily I'm bar manager in
the pub so the staff swap hours around with me to fit in with placements.
Problem is I'm shattered!!! But I'm sure it will be worth it in the end. Anita - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:53:46
(BST)
You are sharing not whining Anne-Marie it is great that you shared
your experience with 'us'. The more that 'we' find out about the conditions
that prevail around the country the better 'we' will know how to react. A
few weeks of observing as a body and I think the wards would be quite keen
to see us paid! By 'we' I mean those that read this site not Royalty Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:44:37
(BST)just out of interest is anyone here
from the Uni of Central Lancs? Anyone here planning to attend it? Ange - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:09:17
(BST)
WAITING FOR THE GREAT LEAP FORWARD This site is a great forum for debate
on several issues and I have found lively and interesting. But is there anything
we can physically do to change our situation regarding are pitiful bursaries.
My university launched a new initiative called the mature student bursary.
I collected the form, which was about 12 pages in total, and it took me hours
to fill in - I had to account for every penny I spent including "entertainment"
well I suppose that constitutes my television license and my library card!
I then had to give copies of bills, bank and credit card statements, child
minder fees etc. etc. - it took a while. I handed it in and waited hopefully...but
only to get a letter back saying as I was on a non-means tested bursary I
was entitled to nothing. Well I suppose I was not really surprised. Bit of
a waste of time really. Sorry had to get that one off my chest. What I am
trying to say in a very round about way is how can we change our situation,
what can we do to make a stand? it is all very well to discuss our situation
but we need action - I am willing to take action but need guidance and support.
Sorry I have gone on... but my overdraft just keeps increasing! Anne-Marie Osborne
<h9150375@hud.ac.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:48:19
(BST)
Suren Suren I am not entirely sure what it
is you have invited me to do, if indeed you have invited me to do anything.
I am keen to do anything in my limited power to promote the cause of students
nurses and to assist any of my fellow student nurses. I am not sure if a separate
forum is needed to discuss anything, as this one seems to do an excellent
job. I have visited the RCN chat page concerning bursaries and have found
that there are some other agendas being raised. I do not think that the RCN
site offers the same degree of freedom as the Brutish nursing site, being
as it has to be moderated. I have to confess that I am a great fan of 'angry'
people's opinions. People rarely become irate without provocation or cause
and the fact that some of the subjects debated generate some heated exchanges
is wonderful! Nursing needs passion and passionate people to help drag it
into this century from where it lurks on the edge of the century before last.
I am certainly interested in reaching out and contacting student nurses in
other countries and in other cultures to compare the training and conditions
they experience. However, all this will have to be balanced against the fact
that I am not going to be a student for too much longer, well I hope not for
too much longer. I should qualify in the New Year and have almost a month
of holiday in that time as well. So, if I have missed the point or barked
up the wrong tree, then apologies but hopefully this will clarify the situation.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:38:24
(BST)
politics I am intrigued and overwhelmed at the
messages that have appeared since I last looked about a week ago. Suren do
you not sleep? I find this whole communicative passage enthralling. I think
that we all have stories to tell re. HCA's, money and personal dilemmas...
I have a talent for dogged determination I am extremely interested in the
involvement of the forum. I had plans to go to the RCN conference but my membership
only came through today and I believe it is too late .... So I am interested
to be physically involved. My MP has proved her incompetence (or incontinence
as the preferred phrase should have it) what next? answers on a postcard please!!!
oh yeah and; "up the revolution and all that!" Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 13:45:51
(BST)
Forum thanks roger. So I understand that you
are willing to head this forum and when art conference we should meet and
kick start this. I will be meeting with Tim and if you want to join us for
a round of golf on the Friday you are welcome to.....see u at conference,,,,,,,, Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 05:41:15
(BST)
Passion, I meant passion Damned fingers... Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:42:12
(BST)
Suren Seems like an immensely good idea, as
there is clearly a lot of passion out there. The next step is to encourage
those whose voice is missing to contribute, those who I would describe as
the silent majority. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:40:41
(BST)
FORUM hi roger, seems like you have made some
very valid points and seem to be well informed how about you heading this
forum and lets kick start a network so all students can share and inform each
other about their good experiences and bad ones. Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:10:21
(BST)
lets form a forum it seems like there are lots of good
points being made here. why not lets form a forum and address these points
and lets try and better the bad situations and encourage the good ones. Lets
network and share information and experiences good or bad. Now that there
is so much been said how about some action now.. We have got the words.....LETS
TURN TALK INTO ACTION. Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:07:39
(BST)
The pen is mightier than the
sword You posted while I was writing Linda,
as a 35 year old I have found it chastening to have to grovel appropriately
to the all powerful qualified staff whose every pen stroke could or would
ruin me. Perhaps that is where the paranoia is coming from, an arcane and
inane system that breeds not only contempt, but the contemptible Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:41:48
(BST)The beauty of the web is that you can
say what you want, how you want to and on your own terms. To anonymous colleagues
I can understand why you want to stay that way, it is just a shame that we
have a culture where you feel that need. No matter, keep your views flowing,
they all add to debate and that is what the web is for. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:40:54
(BST)
Come on spaniel. Dear Linda, Hope you haven't forgotten
my request about the success of the RCN recently, I'm twitching with anticipation. Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:38:54
(BST)
Branching out? With all the deference I can muster,
it seems that the questions posed to Linda revolved around (or is it about)
the great (or small) successes of the RCN? Now bear with me as I go out on
a limb but... Did not the RCN suggest earlier this year that this is one of
the worst recruiting crises? Is there not a chronic shortfall of qualified
staff, matched only in ridicule by the distance that colleges are prepared
to go to recruit (that is physical distance). So, what I am saying is, after
all these successes, how can there be failure? We all love a tale of the old
days, no-oneloves swinging the lantern more than I but.... Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:38:07
(BST)
The truth is out there to the most recent anonymous postee,
I would ask you to join me in my recently established party "the paranoid
tendency" but I am scared that if anyone else joins besides me they will hold
a caucas meeting and form a breakaway party. Anyway more than one is a compromise Linda B <linb121@yahoo.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:36:02
(BST)students post things anonymously the
same way the 'love the ward' and are 'having a great time' and 'learning loads',
because you never know....
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:30:01
(BST)An earlier anonymous (why?) post asked
what I did in the eighties. The experiences Ray described in the seventies
were very similar to my EN training in the early 80s. In my 7th month of nurse
training after precisely 2 weeks of college learning bed making and thermometer
washing I was left in charge of a gynaecology ward on nights with 2 auxiliaries.
On the first night a woman arrived back on the ward at 10 pm following a total
pelvic clearance, with 4 IVs, morphine pump and a Schwann Ganz Catheter in
situ. The less than helpful SHO took five minutes to show me how to obtain
a capillary wedge pressure by inflating a balloon sitting in her aorta (don't
forget to release the syringe afterwards) before waltzing off. Needless to
say she did not last the night. That pretty much set the scene for most of
my EN training, and I could either leave or stay and try to change things
for the better. So I stayed and I worked hard lobbying for the implementation
of Project 2000 while doing my RGN training and degree, so that students afterwards
received what I wanted, an education and not a training. I am aware that things
have not worked out for a great number of students, so I am still working
to change things for the better, but I stand by my earlier comments that if
you really want to change things you can only do it from the inside, it is
possible to join the establishment without signing up to. Well I am aware
I have taken enough of your time so I am off now to try and find a twinset
and pearls that fits. Linda B <linb121@yahoo.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:24:08
(BST)I think roger raises some important
points in this debate. I am rarely ambivalent, but on the HCA/RCN issue I
really have not made up my mind. Part of me thinks that HCA's are just another
part of a stressed workforce who work alongside RN's. But there is a danger,
as roger says, that we recreate the SEN in a "modernised" form. The fact that
the RCN seem to be pushing this is noteworthy! ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:22:41
(BST)
My view I am a student nurse and in my spare
time I work as an HCA. I feel that HCA's should have a better understanding
of what student nurses are there for. My experience as a student nurse is
that all staff on the wards believe the have a certain job to do and HCA's
feel threatened by students because they have progressed. Students on wards
do not have a role to fit in to, either as an HCA or a staff nurse, we are
in between, in limbo if you will. I think if HCA's had a better understanding
of a student nurse role then we could all get along just fine. student nurses
who are HCA's part time seem to show that understanding towards HCA's so why
can't they? Clare - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:21:01
(BST)
Suren Suren, I think you have misunderstood
me. I am not suggesting HCA's are the new 'ward manager'. I have exercised
my rights as a supernumerary member of staff on many occasions and have had
discussions with my link tutor, only to be told 'to get on with it'.This is
not acceptable. Are you suggesting that we let ourselves be taken advantage
of? I am aware of the concenquences by commenting on these issues online,
however, it may encourage certain members of staff to reflect upon their own
attitude next time they speak to a student, or any other member of staff.
Don't you think that it's best that these issues are addressed so that they
can be discussed and hopefully resolved? Since when did keeping quiet do anyone
any good?
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:59:44
(BST)
Who are we fighting for? Some of the tone of the debate about
HCA's has been of a less than objective nature. However, there is rarely smoke
without fire and as some of these comments are made by student nurses, perhaps
the other students should be considering the motives behind these comments?
How is it that student nurses have come to feel so ill of the people that
they work with? Whether or not people from other countries are required to
work prior to their acceptance onto the register is a separate issue. If you
choose to attempt to gain employment in another country, surely you will find
yourself adhering to that country's rules? The same applies for British trained
nurses attempting to work abroad. I believe it was Lord Shaftesbury who put
an end to the forcible recruitment of persons from other cultures in the century
before last, so surely there are few who can be surprised by what befalls
them when attempting to gain employment here. The problem would seem to be
that a proportion of qualified staff regard student nurses as glorified HCA's
and then a further minority of HCA's seem to regard student nurses as something
less than HCA's. This can result in very damaging experiences for student
nurses, often on the busiest and least well managed wards where they are open
to 'abuse'. During my training I can recall countless occassions when HCA's
took the route of least resistance and allowed me to make up the difference,
while the qualified staff seemed ambivalent about the whole thing. Equally
I have the distinct privilege to work with some HCA's who have been without
doubt peerless in the quality of the care they delivered. The fact of the
matter is that there are good and bad in every walk of life. However, how
is it that we see nursing so inextricably linked to the HCA role and yet so
distinct from the other members of the multi-disciplinary team? It is curious
that with many authorities delivering what amounts to ultimatums to their
enrolled staff to convert; the same authorities are returning to programs
of induction that seem characterised by if not the lowest common denominator,
certainly a lower one. The proliferation of vocational training can be seen
in theatres, where qualified staff are being replaced by ODP's and ODA's,
whose training is quite distinctly NOT university based. It is however, characterised
by substantially better renumeration during training and incremental remuneration
as well. Not bad for a two year in house NVQ. Perhaps those student nurses
who are finding life difficult either with or without a bursary should consider
the option of leaving nursing for a better paid if not easier route to patient
care? Given the tone of those who, if not espousing the party line, are certainly
members of the party, it could be the best result. I cannot help but feel
that there is a drive from the RCN's equivalent of Millbank to foster this
vote upon the profession. I am sure that if it goes through that it will not
affect many of the committee members or senior staff who might approve. Equally,
I am sure that those responsible for the budget would be only to happy to
see a cheaper alternative arrive, just as nursing pay starts to crawl into
the late 1980's. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:55:37
(BST)
Ange It seems like not you have made a "U"
turn. Your tone and the manner you have written is totally different from
what you are saying now. I am confused here are u saying that the HCAs are
the ward managers, ward coordinator or sister in charge. I cannot understand
how a HCA has the power to make you to do things that you do not want to do..
As a supernumerary u have the right to say no. why don't u exercise that right.
Yes where I am majority of the HCAs are from the ethnic minority group. There
are also qualified foreign nurses who are employed as HCA due to the policies
of the UKCC and the government whereby if these qualified nurses do not come
from the following countries: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hong Kong and
South Africa will have to wait for six months before they are given full nursing
status. So these HCAs are qualified nurse which obviously you are not aware
of. Let me tell a story from RCN congress this year. There was a final year
nursing student who said to her friends...."well I am graduating next month
and when I am a staff nurse I will make life so difficult for students because
I had a bad time as a student." Having people with this attitude makes life
miserable for students like us. I hope now you have an understanding before
attacking people online. Think how would you feel if the HCAs and staff nurses
attacked you on their website and pages. Next time when u are in your placement
think before you become judgmental about a persons behavior towards you. If
this person is rude or gives you a hard time....it might just be that this
person or hi/her colleagues has read your writings on this website. By comments
like these on websites this does not do us any good, it does us more harm.
If you have a problem at your placement...take it up with your link tutor
or mentor....there are complaints procedures use them rather than attacking
people whereby they are unable to defend themselves. What is happening here
is a hate campaign being built up. So please stop this now before it gets
out of hand and does more damage than good. ONCE AGAIN THIS IS MY PERSONAL
VIEW AND NOT AS AN OFFICIAL. I AM A STUDENT AND I WANT TO REAP THE BENEFITS
OF ALL PROFESSIONALS IN A WARD AND I AM NOT GOING TO LET THINGS LIKE THIS
SPOIL WHAT COULD BE A VERY GOOD LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR ME. REMEMBER NURSES
AND HCAs DO READ THESE PAGES. AFTER ALL I AM STUDYING TO BECOME A NURSE Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:48:08
(BST)
Pardon??? Suren, I feel I have to respond to your
last mailing. When I sent the previous message regarding the attitude of certain
HCA's, I was merely commenting on some of the encounters I had had with them
- after all, this is meant to be where students can discuss current issues
on the wards isn't it? I am aware that there is 'good and bad' in every grade
of staff and that there are many HCA's out there who are worth their weight
in gold - hence the expression 'some HCA's' in my message! You seem to be
rather judgmental in your suggestion that many HCA's are from ethnic minorities.
From what you write, one could be led to believe that you suggest we all dislike
HCA's because of their culture. What utter rubbish. I merely have a problem
with struggling to gain learning opportunities, when SOME HCA's think we are
there to work for them. Yes, I have aired my views in a professional assertive
manner on previous occasions and have acquired no respect at all from it.
So, before you start suggesting that we end this 'petty hatred', try thinking
a little deeper. Ange - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:27:25
(BST)
TO JUST A THOUGHT I think u are missing the point here.
If we are going to adopt this petty hatred for HCAs and then separate ourselves
from them and make them look like the enemy then we are going down the wrong
path. The important point is that you have to accept that we are going to
be working with them when we are qualified and we are going to work with them
during placements. HCAs are here to stay. So instead of rubbishing them online.
We live in a democratic society and we should give them a chance to defend
themselves and I as a student and I speak as a student and not abusing my
position, further more I only take office from October 2000 and not before
that...i found them to be helpful courteous and very well informed. Take a
step back and look from the outside into the inside of these things and you
would see that not all of them are such horrible beasts as some of you make
them to look out. How would you feel if you was a HCA and these people were
writing these vile comments about you as a HCA. So before you go about HCA
bashing....think very carefully what are you doing here alienating yourselves.
Do you honestly believe that staff nurses and HCAs does not read these pages.
Do you honestly believe that you are all saints. Well it seems like the reasons
there is hostility is because of what people write on sites like these. You
give them the reason to resent you because in the manner you all resent them
and in the manner you attack them on this website. From my knowledge most
HCAs are from the ethnic minority group. Is this a problem with them not being
able to understand English due to English being their second or third language.
I am working at the moment as a bank staff and most of the HCAs I am in contact
with are from ethnic minority group....they are either from Africa or Philippines.
Also not forgetting some of these people are qualified nurses in their country
and the NHS has recruited them to work in the hospitals here. They got to
work as HCA even though they are qualified nurses for six months before they
are given full status. Are you aware of these factors. How would you feel
if u was asked to go and work in their countries due to shortage of nurses,
you have a degree in nursing and u was a sister on ward....u go there and
they down grade you to HCA status for six months before you are recognised
as a qualified nurse.....so please stop this bigotry and lets all work together
for a better NHS.......after all when we qualify we are going to work with
them in the wards....they are here to stay...and you will not get rid of them....so
lets work together and respect each others points of view.....THIS STATEMENT
IS A PERSONAL ONE AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY FUTURE ROLE WITHIN THE
RCN AND I AM NOT ANTI STUDENT.....I AM VERY PRO STUDENT AND VERY MUCH IN FAVOUR
FOR A BETTER DEAL FOR ALL STUDENTS......THIS IS JUST A PERONAL VIEW AND I
FEEL THAT SOME OF THE REMARKS IS UNCALLED FOR AND AFTER ALL WE LIVE IN A MULTICULTURAL
SOCIETY. Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 21:20:08
(BST)To the colleague who took the queens
shilling let me say that before this, as a student in 1970, I was left in
charge of wards at night and alone in mental health. I remember well being
"expected" to remove sutures as a 2nd year, though nobody had ever taught
me the practice or theory. In my general training I remember being left in
charge of an acute medical ward at nights with 19 IV's to manage and many
sick patients. Technically of course I was not in charge because a night nursing
officer did rounds and was at the end of a bleep, but was usually busy with
other priorities. I well remember being left with a young man dying with a
degenerative condition and feeling his dread and fear, groping hopelessly
for the best judgments I could make. I do not want to go back to that. We
were salaried, though it was still a pittance. The RCN was not the only organisation
that believed the future was in higher education, the majority of the profession
and students at the time saw this as the way to go. I always worried that
P2k would leave us possibly with the worst of both worlds and said so at the
time in many articles. But I do not believe that a return to salaried status
is the panacea that some would imagine. We must work for a decent deal for
students, degree and diploma and ensure the quality of their experience in
both the uni and the clinical placement. All unions, including the RCN and
UNISON, have attempted to do their best by their members and the RCN was crucial
in 1973 in registering stewards under the then labour relations act to protect
the IR interests of members. This is a rich nation. If we can find £45 million
for the bloody dome then it cannot be beyond our wit to properly fund the
education of nursing students. The government are putting more into the NHS,
the health unions must find some common ground and fight to ensure that a
fair chunk of the new money goes towards education. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 20:46:25
(BST)
H.C.A's I don't think that it is appropriate
to use this page as a sounding board for students views on H.C.A's. As so
many people have said, there are good and bad people in every sector of the
health care hierarchy so I think that it should just be left at that. Yes,
I know what it's like to work a shift when you are not treated as a valued
member of the team but then it is up to the student nurse to be assertive
and voice your position. You never know. You may even be respected for it. Rosie <hiphopyoyang@yahoo.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 20:45:22
(BST)
The future is bleak, and it is
not orange The Americans have had two qualifications
for what would be called HCA's in place for some years now, Licensed Vocational
Nurses and Licensed Practical Nurses. Both 'qualifications' are gained by
attending short courses at what amount to night school. They are State Registered
and are beginning to replace Qualified Nurses in a lot of care settings, particularly
hospitals. In essence, they are the physical re-embodiment of what would have
been called SEN's here but a few years ago. The Department of Health Consultation
document 'A Health Service of all the Talents' describes the need to maximise
contribution from all staff. It outlines the need to remove barriers that
prevent the overlapping of roles and also emphasises the need for training
to allow this to occur. In short it allows for the expansion of roles of nurses
but by the same token allows for the expansion of the HCA's role. In America,
the creation of Licensed Practical or Vocational Nurses (LPN/LVN), has created
a template for generic health workers. The LPN/LVN's are able to cannulate,
administer drugs, plan care, change dressings, take bloods and perform diagnostic
tests, after only a one-year course. The fact that B grade HCA's in both Mental
Health and Learning Disabilities settings, can administer medication under
local protocols, suggests that nursing has surrendered its Holy Grail already.
The drug round and the ceremony and deference attached to it, are the manifestation
of that which separates those on the register, from those aspiring to it.
The creation of a more homogenous healthcare professional by the Royal College
of Physicians would seem to be the logical progression of the present trends,
certainly in America, where physicians are among the first to promote the
benefits of common training for allied healthcare professionals. The removal
of rigidly demarcated roles and the evolution towards a common training program
(The NHS Plan, 2000) that emphasises reciprocal respect for not just nurses
and doctors but allied health professions has been mooted. The present Government
has set targets for this to occur in the United Kingdom in the discussion
document 'A Health Service of all the talents' workforce where the emphasis
is on 'flexibility' of workforce and 'integration'. There seems to be stubbornness
about accepting not only change but also more prosaically change that originates
in America. However, given that so much of what is common practice now in
the U.K. originated in the United States this seems at best facetious. The
American model uses qualification as both the entry criteria into nursing
and as a requisite for advancement within the profession. The existence of
structured, moderated and recognised professional qualifications for nurses
practising in advanced roles there for more than thirty-five years suggests
that nursing in England could do worse than borrow some American ideas. Admittedly,
some of these concepts are now appearing in the plans of Government, with
the concept of higher practice being used as part of what is being described
as a 'career trajectory' in 'Making a Difference'. However, it is worth noting
that the first rung of the Government's proposed new ladder is the HCA. So,
go ahead and vote for the HCA's to join our merry band, but at the same time
remember the date. It will be the day nursing gives away it's future for the
price of appearing egalitarian. It is noticeable that those that argue so
vehemently against a return to employee status for Student Nurses, asserting
that it will be retrograde to disassociate the profession from higher education;
are some of those who would welcome vocational qualifications with open arms.
If familiarity breeds contempt, then I can think of no better example. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:51:09
(BST)
A bone for the continent spaniel. Linda B, I noticed in your posting that
you could argue the RCN's corner successfully but wouldn't because you thought
that it "could take a lot of everyone's time". Well, you certainly wouldn't
be wasting my time and I am sure that there are a lot of people who visit
this web site that would love to hear of the RCN's success in improving the
lot of nurse's (student or qualified). Thanks to the RCN's success large numbers
of students are still dropping out of the course and those that do finish
are qualifying with substantial financial debts. I hope that you do take the
"TIME" to reply, if it's not too much trouble. Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:07:17
(BST)
Just a thaught... Whilst I accept that in any group of
people there are good and bad, I feel that I may have to draw Suren's attention
to one small point. He has NOT been elected to represent the viewpoints of
HCA's. It strikes me as a bit rich to come onto a STUDENT website as an elected
STUDENT representative and critisise Students. Perhaps Suren should dedicate
more of his time to actually trying to achieve those things that students
actually need instead of painting wonderful word pictures of our sainted HCA
colleagues. Also does anyone know why the RCN is so keen to push for HCA's
to become part of it? Perhaps the reason may not be as they say to offer membership
to a wider section of Nursing for the benefit of nursing, but maybe the financial
reward of having so many more members may just explain why the RCN is so keen
to push for a yes vote. Who knows perhaps if the vote is yes Christine Hancock
will get another pay rise, she obviously needs it, i mean she only earns £84,000,
its not alot is it? dissatisfied of 'Tunbridge Wells' - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:57:42
(BST)Linda I'll tell you a story, and you
can tell me what you did at the same time. When I left sixth form, my mate
and I took the Queen's shilling; he in the Royal Marines, I myself went after
the Queen's Commission in Her Britannic Majesty's Land Army. Some of it was
crap and a lot of it was repetitive, hills, rucksacks, and rifles. One of
our best friends went to be a nurse, bless her. We would go and visit her
and her friends for leave. The talk was always of poor pay and conditions
on and off the wards. Students being given the offensive smelling end of the
stick by uncaring and exploitative staff, no one cared or argued their corner.
In fact nursing seemed hard done by with poor pay and conditions the order
of the day. Margaret Thatcher was busy giving us lovely big pay rises and
had just let the lads off the leash in the sun-drenched Falklands. She was
also just starting to put her foot across the throat of nursing, where she
kept it for quite a while. That was all a long time ago, back in the eighties.
So Linda, nurses and nursing students are still badly paid given the fact
that it is now a University based course, students still complain of poor
treatment at the hands of unscrupulous nurse managers. Young men and women
still take the Queen's shilling, and they still get paid more than nurses,
despite the 'efforts' of the RCN. My mate is qualified and working in Australia,
fed up of the treatment, she and a fair few of her friends jacked nursing
in. So what were you doing during the time this story took place?
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:39:30
(BST)
WE NEED MORE OK there are now petitions at Huddersfield
and kings college. Even if you think you can only get a few they all count.
If you want one mail me Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:34:06
(BST)
More about HCA's.............. From reading the last few messages,
I have been able to emphasise with the number of students complaining about
the attitude of HCA's towards them. On many occasions I have had encounters
with HCA's who seem to presume that we are an extra pair of hands to assist
them, while they themselves catch up on all the latest gossip in the kitchen.
I have had endless 'dirty looks' just because I am working with a staff nurse
or joining in on the ward round. Obviously, some HCA's have not read their
job description properly! What annoys me is if we complain we are branded
a trouble maker and receive a poor report on completion of the placement.
Is it any wonder so many students are leaving their training when this, amongst
other factors, is what we have to put up with - all for the luxury of £2.60
an hour! Ange - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 17:25:32
(BST)
hca's my message was meant to point out that
people have their own stuff, not necessarily aimed at those around them at
work..a viewpoint gained from perhaps being older and more used to this! Im
not having a go at anyone..i try and remain objective or else id go mental
so i agree lets not climb aboard a vindictive bandwagon..there are problems
that we all need to work out and resolve! Whew what a vitriolic site.. could
out you off altogether!!! jo lee - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 14:28:32
(BST)
HCA why is it always it everybody elses
fault than the students? i have been talking to people and there is always
going to be good and bad practioners either as HCA, Staff Nurse and Students.
i had a rather interesting chat with a ward manager two nites ago. this person
informed me about students who are placed in the ward just will not take part
in any form for nursing care. they are invited to observe and ask questions
on the ward which they refuse to do because they are supernumery. they were
absolutely rude to the HCAs. when they did speak to them, they spoke down
to them and also was insulting. so please not all HCAs are as horrendous as
soem of these people make them out to be. Have any of you thought about treating
them with respect as you are demanding from them. from my expereince with
HCAs i found them to be polite and very hard working people. I found them
to be well informed and trained in their field and that they are relied upon
by the qualified nursing staff to provide the care where the nursing staff
cannot. so stop this bigotry and negativity. lets be united and lest work
together rather than being petty and vindictive. yes there are some very bad
HCAs who are arrogant and rude. bu also there are very arrogant and rude students
as well. i have come across quite a few in my class at university and also
through bank jobs and placement. this is a two way traffic here. TREAT PEOPLE
LIKE THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED. FOR EVERY FINGER U POINT ....U HAVE THREE
POINTING AT YOURSELF......SO PLEASE STOP THIS BIGOTRY AND LEST BE UNITED AND
WORK TOGETHER Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 06:54:56
(BST)
Re: HCA's attitdes to student
nurses as a student nurse, who was a HCA for
9 yrs prior to doing my training, this subject makes my blood boil, this phenonama
is all to frequent, both with myself and my colleagues. i have worked with
HCA,s who have a lot in common with Hitler. I have watched my fellow student
friends complain and have horendous placements because of this. at the end
of the day, 'your only a student' and this sort of attitude seems to prevail
on a lot of the wards that i have been on. alls i can say is, to these particular
hitler style HCA's is that they are a disgrace to their profession, and one
day my time will come! as for the jealousy they portray, they should count
themselves lucky. at least now, trusts are seconding them and paying them
their wages...unlike us...who have to survive on a meagre bursary. if they
want to be a nurse , they can no longer use the excuse of pay to stop them
doing so. i have to say however, i have worked with some brilliant HCA's who
are an asset to their ward and who have helped me no end. sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 01:27:35
(BST)
UNITY IS STRENGTH wow......lets use this energy campaigning
for a better deal than having a go at each other. we cannot afford to have
this divide amongst ourselves. lets respect each others views and unite for
one purpose to get a better increase for our bursary and grant. lets campaign
for a better and eqaul curriculum. these are the things we should be looking
rather than having a go at each other. lets unite and stay united. after all
it is our future is at stake. suren suku Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com> - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 00:28:05
(BST)
Reply from Continent Spaniel I have been following the messages here
with interest and was amused at Roger's description of the RCN as an incontinent
spaniel. I currently sit on the RCN Council representing nurses in South Thames
& London and could take a lot of everyone's time arguing the RCN corner (successfully)
but I won't. Instead the advice for anyone who wants advice is that if you
really want to change something you change it from the inside, or walk away.
Yours in unity Linda B Linda B <linb121@yahoo.com> - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 23:54:16
(BST)
What the hell are we doing????? I have now just read the last few messages.
Iam appaled WE SHOULD NOT BE ARGUING WE SHOULD BE WORKING TOGETHER. we all
know what it is like as one other message said UNITED WE STAND,DIVIDED WE
FALL Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 18:51:35
(BST)
Thank you Ok there are petitions now going in
Du Mont uni (Leicester), Chiterns (Bucks), Central Lancs uni, and south bank
And a few of these are going to RCN conference Ray Rowden (running for Pres.)
is also taking on too. Please if you are attending hunt them down and ask
to sign. I can't attend (suprise, suprise because I can't afford to )so please
give this issue as much Publicity as you can. We need to start to fight for
this if we are going to get any where. Thanks again to those who have signed
up for petitions but the more we get the better Angela Smith Robert Gordons
Uni ( Aberdeen) Angela smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 18:35:24
(BST)
hca attitudes Been there done that! It happens all
too frequently..i try and remember that they probably regret not having done
the training and are disillusioned! Some are ace and help more than the nurses..but
there are exceptions to every rule! I try and bear in mind that they have
their own agendas and its not me they are picking on! Sometimes i have to
go bite on a brick but so far so good LOL good luck. jo lee - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 15:27:02
(BST)
ps And I work 16 hours a week on top of
that!!
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 15:13:51
(BST)
HCA attitudes towards student
nurses why oh why do we get a handful of HCA's,
when we are on placement, who seem to think that we are there to make there
job easier????? I am on my first 4 week placement which has been fantastic,
all the staff have been very helpful and I have learnt lots to assist me in
my assignment, but there are certain HCA's who treat us like idiots who they
can boss around. Their attitude seems to be "why are you with the trained
staff instead of doing the dirty work with us?" Well, we don't mind digging
in and getting on with it but we have certain criteria to fill to meet assignment
needs which doesn't include washing and dressing and it's about time that
they were made to realise that we are super numary. Another attitude that
I have encountered is the 'how come I couldn't get in to do my training?'
or 'Some of us haven't got time to go to college' or 'I can't afford it'.
Well to all you HCA's out there, neither can I afford it, I'm 35 and single
with 2 children to keep and I got off my butt and took my daughter to college
with me on the bus every day to get me where I am, so I suggest you all button
it.
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 15:00:41
(BST)
REVOLUTION START YOUR OWN REVOLUTION AND CUT OUT
THE MIDDLE MAN. REMEMBER THE REVOLUTION IS JUST A T SHIRT AWAY. (apparently)
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 14:30:07
(BST)
stuff Just curious if anyone else seen the
'small' but significant article in todays (London) Metro (and I presume Evening
Standard) re: students being left in charge of critically Ill clients unsupervised...
I am glad to see the so called 'supernumery' status being in the public domain
as well as our little one. They also mentioned that we get £2.60 an hour,
nice to know they all know that too! Just thought I would mention it, might
lift the tension from this page for a few seconds and, perhaps, make us all
wake up to the fact that it is getting the public behind us - not the government
- that will get us somewhere in our quest! Claire <ClaireMacL@aol.com> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 23:35:37
(BST)
Black Report Hello Angela, I have a spare copy of
the black report. If u still need it please email me a postal address and
I will send it to you. I also got the Acheson report which is very good and
it is the follow up to the black report. You may borrow both the books and
would appreciate it if you can return them once u are finished with them..
suren suku Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 23:13:22
(BST)
Too quick to Judge... Firstly i would like to apologise to
any Qualified members of Staff who were upset by the generalised comments
that i made. I wrote them after a particularly hard shift (both physically
and emotionally). I realise that not all Staff Nurses are intent on exploiting
Students. I realise that out there, there are Nurses who work very hard to
ensure that Students who are on placement enjoy them and recieve all the support
and teaching that they need. However i was refering to the 'Status Quo' (and
i dont mean the aging rock band either!) that exists on the wards today. Students
are exploited, often not wittingly on a local level by ward managers, who
themselves are under a huge amount of pressure, but they are exploited none
the less. I am working on a ward where the Ward manager admits that she uses
students to make up the sadly depleted numbers. I have worked six weekends
from a possible eight basically because i am a cheap form of labour. That
is exploitation. There needs to be a radical overhaul in the way that Students
are funded through their training, whether it be through an increased bursary
or through the return to employee status i do not know.(That is a decision
for greater minds than mine to make!) All i do know is that as far as i am
concerned when i came into nursing, i never realised that i had given up the
right to a life. As they say Strength through Unity. Cheers Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 21:07:21
(BST)
Obviously dim... I have to admit defeat, but for me it
was not the endless drudgery of the last few shifts, but the mental drudgery
of the responses I have garnered. I find it hard to understand how when I
originally wrote an 'open' letter to Suren, it started by saying that I did
not characterise him as an enemy of student nurses. The next thing I worote
was in reply to his 'personal' message and it stated that he was probably
a excellent nurse-to-be and a fine human being. I have obviously misjudged
him terribly and would glady retract those assertations about him. If he cannot
grasp the relatively simple premise that I am attacking the RCN with its "incontinent
Spaniel"-like history of public sector pay-bargaining AND NOT HIM AS A PERSON,
then the theatre of politics or even quasi-politics might prove more than
a little wounding to him. What I have said has been largely that the RCN,
though I am a member, has been crap over the years. I remember it's ineffectual
dealings with the Tories over the years. I regard Unison as being a bit far
removed from purely the nursing cause. So what I am saying is more unity less
dissention, less feelings of intimidation, less concern about geographical
location (but an appreciation of the differences) and a few questions about
how much Christine Hancock earns and how many patients benefit from that...
I hate the good old justifications that we have again seen, "It was like that
in my day" and the infinitely disappointing "We gave up trying to change that".
These are some of the things that have got us (nursing) in the situation that
we now have. Falling numbers, sickness and absenteeism are not usually regarded
as a good sign... So that is my point, sorry to sound wounded, anyone who
knows me would be happy to vouch for the fact that I have skin like a Rhino
and manners to boot. Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 19:31:00
(BST)
united we stand It has been quite a while since i visited
this website. I have to admit i had almost given up hope that anyone was interested
in trying to fight for more money for student nurses. The "march on the capital"
is a fantastic idea, the advantages being phenomenal, but the disadvantages
being - unity, The amount of work we student nurses have to do. I helped in
the angel of the north campaign and i could not believe how few students were
interested. All this apathy really gets me down, but returning to this web
site has made me want to continue the struggle for a decent waage/bursary
whatever. I do not think it matters whether we do a degree a diploma, whether
we are unison or rcn. Maybe this division is a trick of the government enabling
us to squabble and not get our acts together! (i am not really cynical(not
good at spelling either)). If there is anything i can do to help this campaign
please tell me. I am a desperate single mother struggling - like we all are
on this pittance... please accept my apologies if you think i have ranted
on too much. i hope no-one has been offended. anne-marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 15:29:34
(BST)
Response to Kris I found this site as I was looking through
the Thornbury website. As a qualified nurse who has been prctising for 12
years I urge you not to give up with only 5 months to go. As a qualified nurse
I should feel guilty for your plight but I dont personally.......sorry! Please
dont hold, waht will soon be, your colleagues to ransome for conditions on
the wards! I bet the Sister doing the off duty with no staff is having sleepless
nights too and want ing to jack it all in. I cant promise it will get better
as it may not, but I'm sure it wont get worse. There is more to life as a
nurse than ward work, there is a whole world out there and with your qualification
you can go out and explore it. I have nmanaged to avoid working on the wards
for 12 years, but have worked within the hospital environment and have done
all I can to educate, stimulate and encourage the students I have worked with.
Most of my colleagues wanted to support the student nurses anyway we could
however we couldnt change it from the top only make things more comfortable
at ground level. What happens at government level we cannot change straight
away, but we can keep chipping away until there is no firm base for them to
ground their prepostourous ideas of burseries and the likes on! Dont blame
us all and please dont tar all 'qualified nurses' with the same brush. You
know the old saying 'united we stand, divided we fall'. India - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:57:47
(BST)
Am I missing something here. I've tried to read through the postings
and follow the plot..........the main gist I have grasped 'student nurses
and Qualified nurse are undervalued and have had enough'..............good
on you all those who have the get up and go to get some changes made. Could
someone please tell me what has got 'Rogers' back up,..............he seems
to think that all the postings are digging at him. I hope you are training
to be a psychiatric nurse so that help is close at hand for that paranoid
state of mind you are experiencing. Ray if you could help students that would
be brilliant but please ensure that things are equally as tolerable for when
we qualify, Nursing needs all the help it can get. Stubsy <Stubbsj2000@btinternet.com> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:42:51
(BST)I thought you might like to know that
Chris Watson, current RCN Prez has written a letter to the Nursing Times,
in response to my Arena column last week. I am accused of being "out of touch"
with the Rcn, the use of new technology being an example. The story goes that
the Rcn has a website, so all is wonderful. A visit will show that apart from
students, the facility is not widely promoted or used. Virtually no branches
are on line, and few membership forums are using the facility. You might also
be amused to learn that the Press page on the Rcn site had no updated info
for months. It is so awful they have pulled it off. I am told this was due
to technical glitches and that it will be up and running in two weeks. Takes
months to realise there is a problem and two weeks to rectify it, fast or
what? Who, I wonder, is out of touch? ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:13:51
(BST)
ANS CONFERENCE To all students if u can make the trip
to the conference please do so. fill in those questionnaires. we need them
so we can use that in our campaigns and also as form of data. so please fill
them in and send them to us......if anyone needs those questionnaires email
me and i will send them to you. suren suku Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 23:43:23
(BST)
to all nursing students i am very much aware that when someone
takes place of office within any organisation is subjected to good constructive
criticism. as i mentioned i am the incoming student member of council. i only
take office from the 18 october 2000. i am trying to reach out and see what
the feelings are amongst nursing students within the united kingdom. i am
aware the problems faced varies from region to region. i am trying to understand
the hardships and the manner students irrespective of degree or diploma, first
year or final year. i am here to represent all of you and not just the south
where i am based. i am willing to travel within reason and meet students to
discuss their problems and take this to the meetings i will be attending on
their behalf and put their points as strongly as i can and also negotiate
a good deal all round. friends i do not want to say what i can do and what
i am going to do. but i do know that my actions will speak louder than words.
i have already tackled lots of issues in regards to student funding and also
made some alternative suggestions to the RCN and the Grants Unit in Blackpool.
when i am in office i am going to arrange meetings with various people who
are responsible for student funding and bursaries. i am also campaigning to
drop off vat on all study materials and student related items. all i am asking
give me a chance and not knock me off before i even took office. the email
i sent to Roger Obermaier was a personal issue and not a public one. i had
that choice of responding to him on the website but i chose not to be offensive
and treat him in the manner he has treated me. i respect peoples views and
opinions and i would expect the same in return. roger give me a chance and
if by christmas you do not see any difference then u are welcome to question
me and criticise me. as long as i have not taken office please keep your criticisms
till then. i am open minded and i am very much in touch with things that is
happening in the wards. Friends, i have spoken with Ray Rowden. our discussions
was very student oreintated and we discussed about the financial burdens and
also about placements. when ray is elected he and i hopefully will work together
to get a better and fair deal for all of us. he definitely and is genuine
about student affairs. he would support us on the increase we deserve and
also compensation for weekend work and night shifts. lets all unite and work
together in partnership rather than attack each other. PLEASE GIVE ME A CHANCE
..... I HAVE NOT YET TAKEN OFFICE.....SUPPORT ME AND I WILL DO MY BEST FOR
ALL OF YOU.......NURSES AND NURSING STUDENTS. suren suku Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 23:37:29
(BST)
Don't give up! In response to Kris Nicol, I'm sorry
to hear about your current dilemma. However, nursing needs people like you
who are up to date of the current issues and who are prepared to do something
about it. Why should you give up your career when you've only got 5 mths left?
Don't let them beat you. At least when you qualify, you will be able to emphasise
with students which will help to stamp out the abuse of their status. Ange - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:52:12
(BST)
RCN Election Dear All. As a nurse of some years standing,
I am supporting Ray as someone who has the decency to speak out for nurses
especially on the NHS Plan. I am somewhat pround to be a nurse, yet feel I
am being designed as a 'doctors' lacky' OK I intubate cannualte etc, aall
the skills that make me fashionalble, but I too, want to see pay, conditions
and professionalism on the TOP of the agenda. If you want to know what I am
referring to, go to Ray's webiste on http://come.to/ray-rowden and read the
Students, manifesto and Agenda Page: then decide and spread the word, there
are alot of nurses NOT voting, come on: give them an incentive. G Gerry Bolger <gmb@dircon.co.uk> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:25:21
(BST)
Exploited again Well there it is a perfect example of
just how 'valuable' a commodity student nurses are. Have just finished a late
shift on a busy vascular surgery ward. Number of patients 22, Number of people
on Shift 4, Number of Students 2. Out of 4 staff on the late shift 2 were
students. The other two were me a third year student and my colleague also
a third year student. When will the exploitation of student nurses stop? When
will we be seen as more than just a short term solution to Nursings chronic
staff shortages? When will i as a student Nurse actually be able to learn
or practice some of the skills that i will need to be a staff Nurse (apart
from bed making and taking people to the toilet). I qualify in less than 5
months and i have done one drug round in EIGHT weeks. Well its not as if i
will need to know how to give medication when im actually a staff nurse now
will it? So Thanks to the situation of poor staffing and inadequate reward
im actually thinking of quitting Nursing. Why should i continue to break my
back for no reward. Its not even as if im learning anything.. All you qualified
staff out there who may be reading this i hope your happy. You and others
like you have allowed the exploitation of Students to continue and have driven
this Student to consider a change in career. Anyone know the number of the
Local Mcdonalds... I hear the pay is better there! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:13:41
(BST)
For general consumption WHEN YOU TAKE ON A ROLE, YOU ASSUME
THE MANTLE OF THAT POSITION. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE LIKE THE PRIME MINISTER ATTRACT
CRITICISM, IT IS NOT DESIGNED AS A PERSONAL ATTACK. IF YOU ELECT TO STAND
FOR OFFICE, YOU CAN EXPECT CRITICISM. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT SUREN IS BOTH AN
EXCELLENT NURSE-TO-BE AND A FINE HUMAN BEING, BUT NEITHER OF THESE THINGS
MEAN THAT THE R.C.N. WILL MANAGE TO SECURE STUDENT NURSES BETTER CONDITIONS.
THIS IS WHAT HE SENT TO ME ======================================================================================i
am disappointed that you wrote to me in that manner. if you are looking for
ten minutes of fame you have got it. if you read my posting it states very
clearly that i am willing to listen to any one irrespective of their postcodes
ie. everyone with the uk. snide remarks and attacks like these would not unite
us. but just cause a greater divide. before you go on speaking gibberish....next
time think and read and understand what is written rather than have pock shots
with no substance. it is people like you who are dangerous and not good for
our campaign. by the way english is not my first language and further more
i am very much in touch with students and the hardships they are facing and
i am constantly inviting students to email me and talk to me so i can be aware
of what is happening. so stop this tirade and get real...use the energy more
profitably rather than making personal attacks with no substance. god bless
and kind regards suren Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:05:32
(BST)Once again thank you to all those who
have asked for petitions please keep Mailing me we need as many signatures
as we can. There are a lot of people who have expressed opinions about making
a difference but these people seem very unwilling to put in the time. I finish
in six months I have essays to do and placements and I'm trying to work as
well. I find the time to do what I believe in these people should do the same.
I started the same debate on the RCN student forum and there are some members
who actually are disagreeing if we want to make a change then we have to stand
together. Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:54:17
(BST)Matt, thanks for the welcome, but I
am not an "Rcn top dog" yet, I have got to win an election! Keep the ideas
flowing and if I win we will have a drink with Brother Abberley at UNISON
and bend his ear Ray Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:13:22
(BST)
don't lose the plot I thought we were supposed to be united
at last...who cares where you both live, you both have the same problem, you're
not getting enough money whilst you're training. I'm a student in Sheffield
where the public transport is excellent and relatively cheap, and I'm still
skint. By the way Ray, nice to see an RCN top dog wanting to join forces with
unison on the bursary situation. Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 17:30:06
(BST)
oh, I see Jan try communting 60 miles a day at
your own expense including parking and depreciation and then have a long,
hard look at your tube ticket. I am not some country ocker, I have lived in
'town' and am only here in the 'country, for my course. Please try and resist
the temptation to be to precious about our beloved capital, but it does have
rather more infrastructure than the average market town.... Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 13:09:16
(BST)
What! Roger mate........are you mad!! What
planet are you doing your training on! Enlighten me mate, 'relatively cheap
public transport'.........have you been on the Tube lately! When its running
that is! and the 'part time job market'......fine if you can beat the typical
'Antipodean' backpacker to the bar work!.....I think not! However all the
other points you make a valid and worth a read.....just try and get rid of
the 'I'm not studying in London' chip off your shoulder before it starts to
weigh you down. Jan - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 10:54:36
(BST)
Student Funding I think i am being misunderstood here.
I am willing to listen to all students in reagrds to their hardships on the
following matters: 01. bursary and grants 02. accomodation 03. travelling
04. textbooks in libraries 05. link tutors and placements 06. problems with
lecturers and university 07. financial hardships. this applies to all Nursing
Studenst in the uk not only in London. I MEAN ALL STUDENTS. Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:54:32
(BST)
Time to clear the air. With the RCN students congress drawing
closer it would seem that the air is getting a little thick with the causes
of our financial hardship. At the end of the day if students are working weekends
and night shifts they should be paid accordingly, at least the same as the
senior HCA also working that shift. I for one am not bothered whether it comes
by an increase in the bursary (as long as all students across the country
are rostered and not supernumary) or whether we receive employee status in
our 3rd year by which we could all expect to be working these shifts. The
why's and the wherefore's are of little consequence this late in the day,
we need to be paid for the work that we do and it needs to be an amount that
reflects our worth. How many wards rely on students as another "pair of hands"
to get the days workload done? Some areas are using student nurses to staff
their wards at the weekends to keep their staffing costs down. It's not on.
It's got to stop. The powers above in the organisations that are supposed
to represent student nurses have got to put more pressure on the people who
hold the purse strings. In fact, Christine Hancock if your reading this what
are you doing to help us? You represent me and thousands of others, but I
don't hear or read anything that convinces me that you are "making the stand".
Why not? I, as I'm sure many others will be waiting to hear your response
at the conference. If any of you out there are part of the "flowery, there's
nothing wrong in nursing" fraternity who think that your cliques will run
this conference well, let's wait and see!!! Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:46:58
(BST)
Make A difference I'm still looking for people to do petitions
(especially in scotland) Please when you mail me can you let me know whay
uni you are at Thank you to those who have come forward so far Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:33:46
(BST)
addendum Suku, in reply to your 'statement',
it is not that I regard you as an enemy of student nursing... It is just that
the RCN has a long and inglorious history of ineffectual bargaining for QUALIFIED
NURSES, let alone students! It is only as a result of good old uncle Tony
that they got a pay rise, certainly not the timid pawing of the incontinent
Spaniel of public sector pay-bargaining. The Conference this year was attended
by one of my best friends who was forced into barracking 'the sainted Hancock',
as the question of student conditions was not worthy of debate. Traning in
London with its large and relatively cheap transort system, libraries and
massive part-time job market must be different. The more rustic colleges are
hardly scenes of bucolic bliss but issues such as mileage allowance are of
vast import to people now forced to pay for the privelage of driving 30 miles
to college. I am not saying you are 'out of touch', but perhaps with a little
over a week to the next conference, you need to 'get in touch'. As has been
said here before, the Irish nurses achieved more in 72 hours when they threatened
strike action than they had in years of worthless dialogue. Over to you, prove
the cynic in me wrong! Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:28:32
(BST)
anyone know a good lawyer? Just a thought, if anyone does know
a good contract lawyer then it might be worth asking them if they think that
we have a contract with the hospitals we train in. I am basing this on the
contract law and employment law that I studied, but that was more than a while
ago... The premise is that I think that we might have a basis for saying that
we have an 'Implied Contract', by virtue of the actions of both parties. Both
sides gain 'satisfaction' from the arrangement (that is the legal term, not
necessarily the emotional term), the hospitals get labour and students get
money. I think that given my experience I would be more than happy to argue
that the level of on-ward training is so poor, that it hardly qualifies the
discription. This said we could argue that the 'work' that we do is of an
equal standard to that performed by the auxiliary staff and should attract
similar renumeration. Any ideas? Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:13:27
(BST)
Student Funding Dear Nursing Students, I do not want
to sound patronising but I am very aware that there is a huge problem in regards
to our Bursaries and Grants. I am the incoming Student Member of Council at
the RCN. I am willing to listen to all of your problems encountered during
your placements, lectures and mainly in regards to MONEY. Yes i am aware that
there are different methods of payment and also am aware that there is no
parity in payment of these grants and bursaries. As Student Member of Council
I am going to try my best and get that parity and also the increase which
is reasonable and fair to all of us. At the moment there is a divide as to
whether we should be salaried or stay on bursary. My view on this is if nursing
students are going to be rostered and made to work on weekend and nite shifts.
They should be paid for that time worked. I would campaign for this extra
payment and uniformity through out the country in regards to placements and
supernumery status. It seems each region have their own definition to this
and also it si important to have this uniformity. At the moment students are
still doing their placements whereby they should be on holiday. Students have
to sign atendance registers. If they are continuosly absent then they will
lose part of their bursaries and grants. I am saying no to this. i am saying
we should be heard and we should be given a fair infaltion related bursary
and grant. I am saying lets be united irrespect of where and what post code
you live in. Through unity and an orderly campaign we would win this increase.
We got to be united on all issues and respect other people's points of view.
At the moment we do not have that unity. I am willing to listen and talk to
anyone and discuss their issues with an open mind. I would present their suggestions
to the necessary departments. Please all those of you can attend the conference
please be there. This is your chance to make the difference and changes for
Nursing Students. This is your chance to voice your opinions, anger and hardships
at this conference. It is your conference. So lets make the best of it and
lets negotiate a better deal for our future. Good luck and a safe trip to
the conference. See you all there. Suren Suku Student Steward Southbank University Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 21:58:00
(BST)
Student agenda As a candidate for Rcn President it
has been invaluable to read this site. It seems to me that all students, degree
or diploma are getting a bad deal. It is daft that the Rcn and Unison are
not getting their act together. Salary, bursary, grant, whatever, it is clear
that the current situation cannot go on. You can have unity in the student
community, if elected as Rcn President I will do all I can to support that
unity and fight for a fairer deal for ALL nursing students. I will not set
that agenda, I will listen to you so that you can set it. Don't fight each
other, fight a bloody awful system which leaves you with grief. Ray Rowde. Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 21:08:06
(BST)
Unite and Fight (for your Rights!) As student Nurses we must Unite and
become more politically aware. For too long we have allowed others to set
the agenda for our debates. We MUST NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN ANY MORE. The
issue of degree vs diploma and who suffers more is an especially devicive
one and we as a student body should bypass this debate and concentrate on
what matters. We need to unite behind the banner of Nursing Students first
and formost. We all do the same job, we all suffer the same chronic shortage
of support, so isnt it about timew that we all stood together? No matter what
your political persuasion, no matter what your union we should stand together
and start to campaign for fairer conditions. We need to be paid more. We need
to have a nationwide policy on what students can and cant be asked to do.
But nothing will be achieved if we militate against each other. The only way
to achieve anything will be to unite.The time has come, the seeds of the Student
nursing revoloution have been sown WE MUST UNITE AND FIGHT. VIVE LA REVOLOUTION! Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 20:02:43
(BST)
IA funny thing happened on the
way to the forum... I WROTE TO RAY AND POSED A FEW QUESTIONS
WITH A NURSING STUDENT ASPECT, AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID. I WILL SAY THAT I
HAVE VOTED FOR HIM, ANYTHING THAT CHANGES THE PRESENT SITUATION WILL BE AN
IMPROVEMENT. Roger, thanks for you email, appreciated. Could you email as
many colleagues as poss with details of my website at http://come.to/ray-rowden
students are on line more than some and every vote will count. If I win I
intend putting student bursaries/grants high up the agenda thanks Ray Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 20:01:00
(BST)
spelling ok i mean LA REVOLUTION!!! degree training
dont aid spelling either LOL One more comment - as has been said noone on
the ward cares how we trained , just that we offer good care and expertise..lets
bear that in mind when prejudices kick in ..i for one find that motivating
if nothing else! Take care people! jo lee <additonal> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:29:41
(BST)
nursing divide -supposed! Good to see some unity at last! Almost
scared to admit im a degree student nurse BUT there you go i ended up on it
and am making the best of it as i go! We are on seperate campuses to diploma
students which makes liasion hard, and opinions biased. The uni doesnt help
with this problem and have been criticised in recent audit for the same. On
placements we do however get together and support each other in the main and
really learn despite barriers imposed. We should ALL get a better deal in
training and in post.. no more bickering amongst ourselves and lets get some
unity and action going ! Glad this site is here to help us do just that. As
has been said VIVE LE REVOLUTION! jo lee <jo@kunchai.freeserve.co.uk> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:25:46
(BST)
hurray! hurray! hurray! well I am so absolutely bloody happy
that so many people have expressed their anger at the money situation. I am
evevn more pleased to see so many people tell Mr. pimmion the pillock miester
where to stick it....I live in a very wealthy county and I have decided that
I cannot take watching the wealthy mincing about unaware of the problems that
the nursing staff have to endure in trying to train..I have written to My
MP and I am composing an article to the local press and hopefully then the
national press. I am e mailing you Angela, do you need any help? Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com> - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 13:40:43
(BST)
workers of the world...... Why is it that even Student Nurses cannot
achieve a degree of unity? Sorry I used the word degree, I do not wish to
favour or slur either party, given the degree of inane infighting (oops, did
it again). As a diploma studen I have the utmost respect for Degree students
and empathise with them on the poverty front. Ten years on I am STILL paying
student loans off from previous courses. I am curious why that when the diploma
students who contribute here all seem to express support for the degree students,we
still see letters stating how much harder it is being a degree student, from
degree students? What do we champagne charley diploma students need to do
to show that we understand? Perhaps if the degree students wrote to their
local MP as voceferously as they write here, seemingly against diploma students,
they would soon be richer. It is a shame, at my college we have no degree
students, they are at a seperate campus. Neither party seem keen to interact,
each being dubious about the other. It all seems a little churlish and pedantic.
Perhaps a little UNITY would not go amiss, after all, when you qualify, unless
you insist on one of the tragic enamel badges (I have one somewhere that says
"Swimming Captain"), no one will no what qualification you studied. The only
thing they will see is a nurse.... Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 23:57:25
(BST)
Petitions I have alredy got a petition going that
I hope to take to both the scottish parliament and westminster anyone interested
in doing the petition in their uni. Please E-mail me and I will send them
a copy we have to have our voices heard and this is one in along line of events
I hope to have in the near future. VIVE LA REVOLUTION Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 19:25:12
(BST)I'd like to reply to something christine
said. I think both degree and diploma students should recieve the same amount
of money. We should be standing together and fighting for better pay for all.
angela smith <angela09@btinternet.com> - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 19:19:08
(BST)
HELP............ Please can anyone help me? I am an 18yr
old student currently studying an Advanced GNVQ in Health and Social care.I
am extremly interested in continuing my educational carer,training to become
an adult nurse...However i am having problems finding colleges in the London
or Leicester..If you attend a college in these areas please could you mail
me information about the types of courses, entry requirements and what the
colleges as a place is like..and if possible a contact number.All help is
appricated, thank you very much for your time. Lucy Bull <LRAB24@hotmail.com> - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 14:36:00
(BST)
divided we fall... I have noted with some optimism the
current increase in, dare I say it militism amongst the student nursing body.
I think that so many of the people who train are jaded by the time they hit
the wards at qualification. Many are seriously in debt and with the current
staffing problems added to the pervading sense of gloom, it is no wonder numbers
continue to fall. I am (hopefully) scant months from qualifying but it seems
that the situation for student nurses worsens at every turn. One of my good
friends who I shared with in residences, qualified two years ahead of me.
He barely worked a single weekend and not more than a week of nights in his
final year. Those halycon days seem long lost and present practices seem purely
exploitive, we are quite simply cheap labour. Those of you of a Pemmin-istic
nature try and resist the temptation to tell me that I am talking out of my
hat. What ALL of nursing is crying out for is unity. I am not sure that either
the RCN or UNISON are really concerened with nurses, one being a political
lap-dog (and I am a member) and the other being somewhat dilute or diffuse
in it representation. Perhaps then the students who I hear in seminars and
the people whose opinions I read, in forums such as these, feel the same.
Perhaps, rather than trying to make our voices heard above either the polite
grovelling of the RCN or the more strident sound of UNISON, we should be speaking
for ourselves. I know the NUS is keen to involve student nurses more, perhaps
our salvation does belong with the Union which we are all afilliated to. I
would like to say that we should "strike while the iron is hot", but I know
how 'that' word makes some fret... Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk> - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 01:06:02
(BST)
elective placements? I have recently found out that our elective
placements have been 'scrapped'! I am an April '98' student just starting
module 9, throughout the course we all look forward to elective placements.
I'm studying at the Thames Valley University in Slough. I have taken this
up with our placements manager, and he told me that it does not state anywhere
in the ukcc that we have to have an elective placement? has anyone else been
told this. please let me know. Also there is conflict over 'making up time'
We were told at the start that we could miss 10 days in CFP and 11 days in
branch. At the end of CFP, we were then told we could not have any days 'sick'
and any time that was missed had to be made up! you can imagine the uproar,
I just woundered if any of you has experienced the same thing. louisa <ajay.barbar@virgin.net> - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 15:48:17
(BST)I've just come back from my summer holidays
(a measly 3 weeks) to find even more people incensed about the bursary situation.
I have been campaigning with Unison for some time now to get student nurses
back to salary status, which should hopefully mean getting employment benefits
as well as more money, which we thoroughly deserve. I feel if we are really
going to change the situation, we need to join both th RCN and Unison together,
and try to get the NUS involved aswell, because this is a union of which most
of us, if not all of us, are members. Please don't stand back and let Alan
Milburn et. al. tell us we're getting a substantial amount of money, how does
he know? I bet he couldn't live off £4,800 per year. We should also be fighting
for more consistency and equality amongst student nurses. I feel very strongly
about the current three tier system in which degree students are expected
to live off even less than the bursary students, and pay back a lot of what
they receive. I don't have anything against seconded students, I think it's
great that they get the amount of money they do get, but I think it is decidedly
unfair that other students don't get the same. We're a special breed and we're
being exploited because we've gone into a career that we wanted to do, not
just something that was available at the time. Please contact your union to
find out how to get involved, and tell your fellow students to do the same.
The more people we get campaigning, the more chance we have of getting more
money. As for Jim, go back to bed, toryboy. Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com> - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 10:56:17
(BST)