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I have been asked to look at this site as an independent, i.e not a Nurse or Nursing Student. You lot need to get your act together, if you are the future of Nursing, I'd rather not be admitted to any hospital you may work at for fear of retribution because I am the wrong religion, colour or even belong to the wrong union- God forbid!!! It is no wonder that the profession is in tatters if this is all the mindless banter that is going on. Whenever you seem to be asked what you want you revert to back-biting union politics. For goodness sake pull yourselves together, work together, current ANS (??) members cannot be totally responsible for acts played by previous executive members, whoever this Sal Porter is looks like she is a law unto herself, I hope I never meet her in a hospital either unless she happens to be a domestic, which by what I have heard of her activity she most probably is or dam well should be!!!!

- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 22:23:15 (BST)
Review of student finance
Linda - I think you'll find that a review was indeed launched of student finance after Alan Milburn met with students from UNISON and RCN. Both were supposed to send 5 each but ANS couldn't fill their delegation so there was less than the full 10 at the meeting itself. It's supposed to last six months and the orginal students will be asked back for their comments before it goes for a final decision - for the first time ever. Louise was one of the students from UNISON who attended maybe she could tell everyone a little more about what was said.
Dominic <dominic@unisonfree.net>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 20:34:16 (BST)
Very happy
To Sarah I wish to join in with the congratulations upon completing the ordeal of this Nurse training malarky. I am about to start my new placement in my second year and I am dreading it , I haven't really had a good experience of a busy ward and it appears I am about to. The problem with that is I am a novice as far as experience is concerned and they will expect me to know what I am doing in my second year. They have politely told me I have three nights in a row thursday friday and saturday (obviously short staffed at the weekend!!!) anyway whinge whinge whinge I look forward to smiling when I finish.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 19:56:57 (BST)
Just back from the Labour Party Conference where I staffed the RCN stall for the week, and have been catching up with all the postings (rantings??) here. Just to let you know (sorry Kris) that the RCN has stands at all three major party conferences as well as with the SNP, Plaid Cymru etc, before anyone accuses us of political bias! It is true that like most of the trade unions our membership is made up of people from all political affiliations and we work with whichever government is in power in order to improve things for nurses and nursing and the NHS. Just because one of the people posting on here appears to be a little to the right of Attila the Hun and claims to be an RCN member, he is not in fact speaking for the RCN. Just regard us as a broad church and a tolerant organisation. To whoever suggested Ray lost out on the presidency because he was a man, while there may be bias in some voters, our last General Secretary, Trevor Clay was a man, and an excellent ambassador for nurses everywhere. And in response to Anna, when I was on the ANS exec all those years ago (10 to be exact) we were working even then with the NUS and produced a joint charter for student nurses. Relationships change over time as people change. Anyway just to let you all know that I had a chance to ask ALan Milburn about when he was planning to increase student bursaries and to look again at issues such as restoration of maternity pay and other benfits. I believe he fudged the issue by mentioning that there was some kind of a review going on, however I plan to follow up my question with a letter to push him further. Once again I believe (as someone who trained in the dark ages) that student status is the way forward to produce nurses that are educated not trained, but the issue seems to be the pitiful level of the bursary and that there is no mechanism for its increase.
Linda B****y
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 18:17:12 (BST)
Ouch!
Chris - Anyone can talk about working together but action speaks louder than words. Ex ANS executive member Craig Kirby's defence of Anna D'Arcy speaks volumes about the way ANS has conducted itself since Unison launched it's campaign for salaried status. In the week immediately after that launch the former chair of ANS (Sal Porter) accused Unison of both wanting to end our supernumary status and of wanting to bring nurse education out of higher education - both a load of cobblers. This has defined ANS/RCN's approach to the only campaigning on student hardship over the past year. From the posting I've just seen from Ray it's made clear that all the unions need to work together if we are to be able to win a fairer deal. But in order for us to be able to work together there needs to be a degree of trust and trust must be earned. When I first made a contribution on this site Andy tried his best to put me down and tried to make it clear that I was not welcome - well I haven't gone away and neither has Unison. Like almost all students I would welcome with open arms any joint work between Unison/RCN/NUS but the ANS exective it seems to me anyway needs to work out a more mature response to student nurses and midwives who choose to belong to, and be active in, other unions.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 17:32:17 (BST)
Congratulations Sarah!
You lucky thing! I wish my own trial was at an end! So, it was worth it then? I'll keep reminding myself of that next time I am spoken to like 's**te'!!! Seriously, all the best in your new job!
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 16:51:25 (BST)
Us B******S Working Together!!!
TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL! I would like to agree whole-heartedly with Rays comments. The only way that we are ever going to get out of our present situation is to work together. At the end of the day there may be differences in membership theories but WE are ALL nursing students, one voice representative of all carries alot more clought than two back-biting squabblers- if you see what I mean!!! Division leads to weakness!!! Although I personally do not agree with returning to salaried status as an ANS Exec member (From October) I will be working hard to forge some of the broken links between other unions (Unison and NUS) so that we can get the best possible solution. There may be issues within each organisation upon which we view differently but are we not taught as nursing students that we must accept diversity??? Lets put some of this theory into practice!!! ------------------ Chris :) P.S. If you are so keen to work together as a team why do you hide away as annonomous????
Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 14:36:48 (BST)
Work together u b******s!
This was a message left on the RCN website by Ray Rowden and it speaks volumes about where devison get us. Pull yourselves together ANS and start working together with Unison on the things that we agree on rather than focusing on what we disagree. We students are having a shit time out here in the real world so get your act together and work with Unison/RCM on getting us a better deal. At the labour conference Linda B****y, Council Member, challenged the Secretary of State on the poor bursary/grant situation and that students lost out on other rights. He seemed aware of the problem BUT immediately used the RCN/UNISON split as some excuse for inaction. i.e, "how can I solve this where there is no agreement?" He seemed to suggest favouring the bursary above salary. Surely it is now time for some sensible dialogue between the ANS/RCN and UNISON.

- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:26:16 (BST)
Time to move on
Sarah - congratulations! You will soon be able to escape from as you say - being treated like s**t. So there's light at the end of the tunnel somewhere..... For the rest of us mere mortals who haven't untaken our trial by ordeal I think its time to move on from all this talk of political parties. We all have our preferances but this isn't the forum in which to discuss them. This is a site for student nurses and midwives to give us the opportunities to discuss issues that are important to us. It's not here to discuss the pros and cons of privatising the NHS. Andy - WE AGREE!!
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 07:47:30 (BST)
Student nurse is ecstatic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had an interview today.....and guess what....I got the job!!!!! 3 yrs goes by so quickly. It seems like only yesterday that I applied to do my nurse training and now its almost over. In one month I've sat my finals and got the job I've always dreamed of...life just doesn't get much better than that! surviving on next to nothing and being treated like s**t will soon be a thing of the past ...oh bliss!!!!!! 3 wks of college and 7 wks of placement (plus christmas off...for the last time..sob) and I'm done. Am I happy or what?
Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 02:17:35 (BST)
Oh what a carry on
Cheers Andy but to be perfectly honest I find ALL of the postings containing reference to political parties a tad tiresome. Whilst I applaud your aims to try and foster some team spirit I find that some of the comments you have posted do smack of political one-upmanship. It doesn't do you or your posistion credit when you seem to be entering into a tit for tat argument with other people. Anyway I wasn't going off at the deep end I was a little annoyed at the way that we seem to let the discussion be high-jacked from the important issues and instead turn it into a demonstration of just how witty and pithy we can be online. Anyway mate I suppose I can now consider myself told off so I think ill go. Take it easy keep up the good work and all that. Cheers
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, September 29, 2000 at 19:52:23 (BST)
CALM DOWN KRIS
Sorry Kris but you've completely misunderstood my motive and gone off at the deep end. I merely wanted to make the point that the RCN is a broad church encompassing the views of all political parties and each should be heard. I am however concerned at people trying to attach a tory label to the RCN when as you well know it is made up of members from all political and apolitical backgrounds if I leaned somewhat towards the labour party it purely because what I said regarding congress was the reality and also because I feel there have been some particularly pro tory labels attached to the RCN recently and I was hoping to redress the balance somewhat. I thought you wMy main aims in the posting were to applaud the value of the students charter and point out what an excellent document it is and also attempt to build bridges with prople who I may have not had the best of relationships with recently. I would really like to work with students on issues of mutual interest on which we agree and would like to continue open honest and fair debate on those on which we don't I hope you will welcome this approach
Andy McGovern <andy_mm_99@yahoo.com>
- Friday, September 29, 2000 at 16:10:09 (BST)
I have a dream...
RIGHT THATS IT! STOP IT! if I read one more posting about the Tories Or Labour being better than anyone else then I will just scream. This site should be political and not Political (that means it should be about politics but NOT be used as a Party political broadcast!!!) The main point is that The Unions who represent the interests of Student Nurses should follow whatever political party or policy that is in the interests of their members. Perhaps if, and this is just an idea, some of the people here stopped political point scoring and say, actually began doing something for the the members that they serve then maybe just maybe something may change....As a brilliant man once said 'I have a dream' and it doesn't involve squabbles among people who should know better! Now consider yourself told off and perhaps we may actually be able to return to a discussion on Nursing matters, particularly those of a student nurse type?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, September 29, 2000 at 15:47:27 (BST)
Various Points
Having not posted for a few days due to placement committments, I have come on to the site and having read most recent postings I am pleasantly surprised. Firsty to Anna D'arcy, Myself and other newly elected ANS members are deeply concerned at the lack of publicity surrounding the charter which I have to say is ountstanding and should be the basis on which the groups involved could move forwrd together on most but probably not all student nurse issues. I hope that sooner rather than later we are all able to meet and discuss matters of mutual concern some of which we may be able to work together on to develop joint strategies. Secondly to with regards to Louise Browns comments I totally agree that we should be more positive and work together where possible whilst at the same time recognising there will be certain issues where this will not be posssible. Finally I don't feel that the RCN is full of tories I recall at RCN congress that following speeches by Alan Milburn and William Hague at Congress 2000 there emergency resolutions to the effect that the health service is safe in the hands of labour/conservatives the result was that it was safe in labours hands (well reasonably) and unsafe in the hands of the tories. see ya
Andy McGovern <andy_mm_99@yahoo.com>
- Friday, September 29, 2000 at 14:55:23 (BST)
Support for Anna D'Arcy
What a shame that when people get such a great chance to air views, share opinions and gain from each others knowledge and experience these sites get taken over by the small minded, bitter and twisted folk that surf the net. As an ex-ANS oficer who worked for over 3 years supporting nursing and midwifery students I am so tired to see that nothing much has changed. Does nobody realise that it is this back stabbing and bitching that has divided nursing for all these years, the divides that mean we still get paid peanuts and are treated like fools by the wider NHS and government. It's this kind of behaviour that makes me glad to have got back to nursing because as a mere Staff Nurse I am allowed the opportunity to ignore such behaviour. I can only offer my support and thanks to Anna D'Arcy for all the work, time and commitment she put into the charter and ensuring the NUS did not sideline nurses and midwives which beleive me they were very keen to do. So what if Anna isn't a nurse, She put more time an effort into supporting nurses and midwives nationally than most students I have ever met. Should we not be grateful to anyone that helps develop and strengthen the profession that we work in? I know I am! I look forward to seeing what the small minded out there have to say about me, I'm sure I'll be in for a real treat. Please feel free to abuse me if it makes you feel better about yourself. thanks for reading my ramblings, signed a very dissapointed Staff Nurse!
Craig Kirby <craig_kirby@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:58:49 (BST)
UGLY LITTLE TORIES
Louise from Plymouth, How would you like it if I called you an ugly little Nurse or said oh god that louise is raising her head again. If I want to be a member of the Tory Party then so what. I will certainly entertain debates on policy but what you have said is personal to the many tories and the many tories in RCN. Privatisation is a kind thing to do for the NHS. I believe it will help poor people, as those with incomes start looking for funding for themselves and we can help the poorest. We can not treat everything for everyone on National Insurance contributions, but that is what people expect these days with advances in medicine. I would go even further and suggest that the private sector should be involved in training Health Proffessionals. At the moment you have people being trained by the NHS with Taxpayers money who then bugger off and work privately. The reason so many patients are waiting these days is that you see the same doctor, private or public but those who pay see him first. If they and a great many nurses want to work privatley then let the private sector pay for their training and let them bugger off there whilst that frees up NHS payed for health Professionals to concentrate on the NHS. The way New Lbaour is going i'm sure that this is something that they could back too. please don't slag me off for being a tory again people. What do others think on privatisation? Victor
Victor Underwood <vpfeud@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:09:24 (BST)
Replies
I will start by replying to Donna, I did not interpret your posting as an attack! I enjoy the opportunity to bring my finances up. Louise I did mention politics but only because too many people were bringing tories and all that nonsense into it. I appreciate that you need to know the devil to defeat him, however I do believe that it is not something that needs to start with them because there is not enough time to wait for them to get off their arses. I would like to laugh whole heartedly at the SPAM.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 20:50:44 (BST)
Chat error!!
Sorry about that must be the medication. To access chat you go to the Nurselife homepage then click on "Communities" and then you get the headings as I already mentioned and hey presto hopefully you should get into chat like this!! Think I should go and get some well earned sleep!!! Nite all ZZZZzzzzzz
Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 20:14:22 (BST)
Chat, and all that...
Sorry, your information is completely inaccurate. NurseLife does NOT make money by selling user information, and options for receiving e-mails from NurseLife or any other source are clearly stated at sign-up. I repeat, we do not sell your information, it is private and protected, and if we filled your @nurselife.co.uk mailbox with tons of junk, we would be clogging up our own systems and slow things down.
andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 19:01:14 (BST)
How about a truce......?
How about drawing line under all this conflict that's been going on between the two unions over the past week or so. I think now pretty much everyone understands the differences between Unison/RCN which has been very interesting - I didn't expect some Tories to rear their ugly heads but everyone has a cross to bear. In the last couple of days the debate has gone downhill - its important that everyone understands the need to respect the views of others and recognise that no one person has a monopoly of the truth. This is a site for students and regardless of what some people think student hardship is a major issue so I make no apology for being 'political'. And why am I political? I was asked by a nurse on my last placement a couple of weeks ago what my ambitions were and they are rather limited at the moment. My ambition is simply to be able to work a 37.5 hour week. To be able to spend time with people I care about without having to worry about how I'm going to pay the bills. Thats why I've become active in Unison together with others in my cohort. We are all just fed up with trying to survive on bugger all and are determined to try and do something about it. The reason why I support Unison's campaigning for a salary is because we've seen the value of our bursary fall since project 2000 came into being because its only raised when the secretary of state for health feels like it. The bursary wasn't increased very much whilst the Tories were in power. By being linked into the pay structures within the NHS we would enjoy the protection that all the unions in the NHS have fought for decades to build up to what they are now - I think its worth trying to get some of that protection. It may be difficult to get a salary - the government would prefer not to spend money on us if they could get away it - but that shouln't mean we shouldn't try. Maybe I should be more realistic BUT perhaps its the government who are the ones who should be more realistic. How on earth are they going to get people into nursing & midwifery unless they INVEST IN US.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 18:58:26 (BST)
I'll chat with u
Ange - so was it just a cheap marketing ploy to get your email address then? Perhaps Nurse life sell your details on to everyone under the sun - expect all those offers that you can't resist clogging up your inbox any day now. We may have our differences here on the site here but at least we can do it without having to worry about all that kind of stuff. Don't worry - I'll chat with you!
Louise Brown <L.Brown@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 17:06:41 (BST)
I want to chat!
I registered with nurselife, thanks to the degree of advertising on this website! However, I am unable to find the 'live chat' facility, that you all rave about! Can anyone help please?
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:56:31 (BST)
Contact details for postcards
The Unison officer co-ordinating their distribution is called Dominic Forristal : (01823) 288031 / email: d.forristal@unison.co.uk
Louise Brown <L.Brown@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:01:21 (BST)
ACTION against student hardship - postcard campaign
Unison is launching a postcard campaign this week to begin putting more pressure upon the government to take action and deal with student hardship. They support Unison's campaign for salaried status and are addressed to Alan Milburn at the DoH. If anyone would like some to distribute amongst supporters of the campaign please contact Dominic Forristal who is one of Unison's nursing student officers with your address and how many you would like. Those Tories who were rambling on about the need for mass privatisation in the NHS - please please stay with the RCN.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:58:31 (BST)
RCN Election
Hi! I am back from the labour party conference and on line. Just want to thank all who have contacted me over recent weeks. You have been great, and many thanks for the supportive postings. The good thing about the election is that the RCN must take note that my support was significant and that the winner was not expected, suggesting strongly that many RCN members did VOTE FOR CHANGE. I will keep pressure up on student issues via many platforms and keep engaged in the debates.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 13:54:02 (BST)
New Zealand nurses strike
New Zealand hospitals could face further nursing strikes before Christmas if pay demands are not met, says the Nurses Organisation. nurses at Capital Coast Health voted overwhelmingly yesterday to support an October 1 strike, at a fiery stopwork meeting at Wellington Hospital. NZ Nurses Organisation spokesman Russell Taylor said today the meeting featured a lot of discussion about "a much more intense and industrial action" if nurses' demands were not met. He said nurses were infuriated by the fact that specialist nurses had been offered 7% while non specialist recieved a 5 per cent pay offer "That rise has really tapped into some fundamental values. Nurses believe that irrespective of which part of the hospital they work in they should be paid the same." Nurses at Kenepuru Hospital will stop work tomorrow to vote on whether to strike. Health Minister Annette King told a national nurses conference in Wellington it was up to hospital companies to come up with money for pay rises. She said the Government had fulfilled its responsibilities by providing hospital companies with additional funding in this year's Budget
Michael Walker <m.m.walker@unison.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 12:58:21 (BST)
Point of information
Whoever left that ridicuolous message for me obviously did not have the guts to put their name to it. For you information i was a health care assistant and studying an access to Health course before i was elected to the national Union of students. As no nurses were involved then in NUS, i was the nearest thing they had and i was given the the portfolio of National spokesperson for Nursing and Midwifery and health care students. This was a responsibility i took very seriously and researched my position by visiting every health campus in England. I also worked very closley with RCN, RCM AND UNISON and was deemed good enough by all three organisations to represent students and speak at all thier conferences. I was also deemed as something of an expert as i was invited to several conferences by consortia and the Department of health. My mission was not to pass myself off as a Nurse or Midwife but to activley work with all three organisations to enable and educate their student members to be involved in NUS, the other side to my role was to educate NUS Officers in the ways of Nursing students and how they could better represent those students and work with them. I also started off the Charte, again by bringing the three organisations together as they agree on more things than they disagree. It took me two years of hard work, meeting after meeting, night after night on a computer to write it. Those involved in developing it were excellent, Craig Kirby, Liam Williams and Denise Chaffer from the RCN, Karen Jennings and Robert Baughan from UNISON and Sue Jacobs from The RCM. All were very very open minded and put students before anything else and several members of all organisations were involved in setting up joint working groups with Universities and THE cHARTER. Unfrotunatley when the ANS Elected officers left and new people took over, a very different message came out of RCN, which was one of divisions. This was quite shocking to people like me who had enjoyed very postive working relationships with all involved. The Charter also got shunned after the ANS/William Hague attempt and so two years of my lifes work went down the drain. I do not apologise for trying to get nursing students involved in issues and NUS, and i do not apologise for trying to get nus to take notice of Nursing students. Those of you in both organisations who also enjoy Local students'; Unions positions largely have the fact to thank that i came along to your Nursing student Conferences and told your organsiations that you should set them up in the first place. No i am not a nursing student and i have never claimed to be. But i have been elected to and given job roles which require me to involve people and break down barriers and create understanding. I have to presume by what the vitriolic message to me said that the person is an RCN member. Having workied with excellent people from RCN and ANS in the past i can only say that you really have let your organisation down badly and the people in the past from your organisation who tried so hard to stop the kind of disgusting rubbish i have seen on this site since i have clicked. I always took to Heart Denise Chaffer from RCN's Comment which i have already mentioned which was the fact "we agree on more than we disagree" I think certain people in your organisation should take those comments on board and think really hard about which direction you are intending on going for the next year. If the direction is the way i have seen on this site then i'm afraid you are destined to be sidelined and ignored for another year by other student organisations. If it one like Ray Rowden had in mind of Co-operation then i am sure you will be welcomed with open arms again. Please do not insult me again with reference to my work, i have dedicated almost 5 years of my life now to the work of Nurse education and participation, my family and my children have been involved and had to make do with Mummy not being there because i'm off to another meeting. I find the message insulting to the sacrifices they have made too and that is what makes me very angry about such an ill-informed message. Anna D'Arcy
Anna D'Arcy <a.darcy@UNISON.CO.UK>
- Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 11:09:14 (BST)
Fantastic
Ay sounds like good advice!!! Cut the cr*p and get down to the business!!!
I.P.Freely
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 23:16:54 (BST)
SMASHING!!
Forget all that dreary talk of poor pay and sleep-outs! Lets all try and chat each other up instead. Frnakly I have to say I prefer apathy to lunacy

- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 23:10:36 (BST)
Live Chat
I have just been one of the newest websites for Nursing: www.Nurselife.co.uk. They actually have a live on-line chat room which is excellent for sharing news, views and ideas. My advice is shell the political Bull and get yourself signed up and over there and get chatting!!!! Get "networking"!!! See you over there!!!
Flo
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 22:52:28 (BST)
York or Croy-den?

- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 22:39:36 (BST)
Point Of Information
Anna D'Arcy, when and where exactly did you qualify as a nurse? Whats that, I didn't quite catch it, Oh you are not and have not been one! Oh we missed that one shame that!!! Was Nursing and Midwifery the only thing UNISON would let you loose on?? Can't do too much damage there can you really???? I think I shall apply for Ronnie B's job because it seems apparent "no experience neccessary" gets you a long way these days!!!!
A grieved Nestle Employee
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 21:43:11 (BST)
Nice Try
Bad luck Ray Rowden, he fought a gallant battle but he allways had two major problems. Firstly he was a male (and the RCN would rather die than have anyone of that 'type' in a posistion of power!) and secondly he may have been advocating change, which is obviously evil in Nursing terms! However as a member im sure we will all be astounded at the way in which the new president leaps into action and the sheer lightning speed with which she makes change happen. I wait with baited breath!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:20:12 (BST)
About as much use as a chocolate fireguard!
Has anyone been to the RCN's press release centre recently? You really should check it out and see how much our esteemed "representatives" are doing (or not doing) for students. They have called for the pay review body (PRB) to improve the financial lot of everyone in nursing including the health care assistants! Impressive you may say or about time they did something. Unfortunately they forgot, yes you guessed it...........STUDENTS! HCA's aren't even members of the RCN (yet) and yet they still get a higher billing than us. Maybe they actually think of students as HCA's with the option to become qualified after 3 years of hard labour, sorry I did mean training honest. I think that the only reason I am a member of the RCN is because I don't have any other choice if I want a union that soley represents nurses. Another stunning move by a union that has close links with the circus and its clowns that have been in Leicester recently.
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:19:43 (BST)
Ray
Commiserations to Ray who fought so gamely, sadly within this sphere it is not the little people or the downtrodden that seem able to raise a leader. We can only hope that his benevelence to students continues, as he was a voice in the wilderness on that front. However, I am sure that the worthy winner will no doubt go on to put me to shame with the sheer pace of the reforms she sweeps into student nursing.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:50:12 (BST)
RCN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION SHOCK
The result of RCN Presidential election is Roswyn Hakesley-Brown 26,230 Ray Rowden 22,004. Roswyn Hakesley-Brown works in the private sector as an independent manager/consultant. May I be one of the first to commiserate with Ray Rowden who in my view would be an excellent President of any nursing union, UNISON included.It will be more vital than ever that radical, progressive elements within nursing students work together to secure a better deal for nursing & midwifery students
Michael Walker
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 16:44:29 (BST)
UNISON/Nursing Times Survey
In response to Andy, UNISON had no input in to the survey apart fromthe fact we sponsered Nursing Times to run it. It was open to all students and the number to ring to register your votes was advertised in the Nursing Times and run by them. As was the form that accompanied it. I have also spotted some people talking about the March. Do i presume they are talking about the NUS March for Education? NUS have agreed that UNISON Student Nurses can have the front of the March again. This will be to highlight the Salaries campaign. As our student members and NUS are paying for part of this we will not be issuing an open invitation to RCN/ANS to join us. We will be inviting pro-salary RCN students to join us and we will have special banners for those students to hold. Anna
Anna D'Arcy <a.darcy@unison>
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 10:55:39 (BST)
Student Nurse/ Registered Nurse
Dear Sir/ Madam, I am interested to enrol for a training to be a Registered Nurse in UK.
Susan Choe <suechoe@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 06:11:59 (BST)
I seem to have missed this bit...
Who said ####! to whom in relation to what? As for the bursary, without being wounding, it would seem that there is a very (very) small group who find it satisfactory. With less than 5 months to go, we held a straw poll of one of the sub sets and found only one student who would start training again, armed with the knowledge we have now. Perhaps that describes the situation more eloquently than I ever could.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 23:08:47 (BST)
Give it a chance!
In reply to p***** off, give it a chance. Im starting my forth placement at the moment, and the previous three have all been very different but equally interesting and challenging. In my experience you get out of it what you put into it. On my last placement the ward was extremely busy all the time but my mentor always gave me time to discuss and talk through things not necessarily at that time but when they were less busy. Ok, all mentors are not all like this but persevere and remember we are students here to learn so I dont think that our bursary is that bad!!!!!!!!!!!(my god I'm in for it!?!?!?)
Nat Mills <natwm@yahoo.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:36:41 (BST)
EXACTLY, COULDN'T AGREE MORE
Get on over to 'nurselife' and join a on-line electronic commune. This is a non-profit organisation with purely egalitarian ideals. No one is making a penny from the site and there will be no emotion or anything man. So get onboard before the rowdy types jump on board. Remember this is run for and by students with the purest of intents, and not a penny of personal gain, honest

- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:18:58 (BST)
See what I mean?
I rest my case about how damaging such activity can be. Get a life. No meaningless words for the in-crowd. NurseLife.
andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:05:20 (BST)
SPAM
When I was little, there was this unpalatable crap in a can which was foisted on the masses, almost a form of oppression. I thought that I had seen the last of trembling pink flesh, but it has returned to haunt me. I hate SPAM and the people that make SPAM and the people who sell SPAM and the people that invade every corner of the 'net with their 'mini-Gates' ideas and SPAM. What nursing needs are passionate people, and argument is often the manifestation of that passion, who are prepared to fight anyone for the rights of others. What it does not need is SPAM or the 'come over here, the grass is greener' crap from the purveyors of SPAM

- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:56:00 (BST)
Moderators wanted
NurseLife needs student moderators who are willing to monitor the student community page(s) and and live chat rooms. If you are interested in getting in "at the ground floor", you need to be a nursing student who is willing to monitor the pages, offer advice and take action when the live chat or messages show abuse of any kind. All enquiries should be directed to executive@nurselife.co.uk Thanks, visit NurseLife at www.nurselife.co.uk
NurseLife <executive@nurselife.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:36:31 (BST)
Well said Andrew!! Lets get things moving!!!!
Chris
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:35:45 (BST)
Time for a change
A lot of heat on this site - this union stuff doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. The losers are those caught in the crossfire, and while messages pleading for help on real day-to-day issues go unanswered, much muscle flexing is evident from the union fanatics. There can only be one answer - get a NurseLife! No hassle, no rubbish, just fact and a chance for you to guide something new. e-mail, community pages and live chat, all waiting at www.nurselife.co.uk Let's make a difference......
Andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 20:27:49 (BST)
Sleep Outs
I am not against anyone having sleep outs before march. I am trying to organise one for Edinburgh but since I have had no offer of help to organise ones in London etc. then I'm concentrating on that one at the moment. I am in my final year I am trying to finish course work as well as my final assignment, I also have my duties as nursing officer on my uni's student association. That is why I want to take my time and organise it so that there is representation from every nursing college in scotland. The royal mile (the road that leads up to the Edinburgh parliament) is about amile long I want that mile to be covered in student nurses. I hope you all understand. You all seem to be enthused about the idea so why not organise your own one lets show the public that we mean buisness. I still would like for there to be one in London, Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh on the same day but right now it might not be possible.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 19:49:01 (BST)
Psychosocial assesements
I need any useful links for the use of psychosocial assesement strategies, and the stress vulnerability model, in relation to mental illness. Thankyou
Lindsay <lindsay.j@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 16:26:40 (BST)
Sleep outs
I was hoping that all the venues could do the sleep out in october, I realise this is short notice - is there any chance it would be feasible to do it so soon? As for the bursary vs salary.........bursary implies we are like other students we are not, we are clearly very different 1) lack of student loans 2) lack of access funds 3) doing a 37.5 hour week with up to 24hours private study (most students have between 8-22 hours of lectures per week) 4) lack of the long summer break to earn real money to enable us to keep studying and eating. Nursing students are completely different from other universtiy students. Oh yes and we are not entitled to career development loans. I am in no way being disrespectful to other students I am just saying that we are so different. Having a salary would entitle us to so much more - family tax credit relief for those with dependants, minimum wage, a chance to contribute to our NHS pension. Yes a bigger bursary would be nice - we all know that at the end of the day we do around a seventy hour week just to make ends meet, but a bursary does not do student nurses justice (I realise i may have upset some people here, I am sorry but this is what I believe - the bursary system does not seem to be working. my friend is a student nurse - she is a single mother and pays out just under £400 a month for child care fees - I do not believe that anyone can support themselves and raise a child with just over £50 a week - she would be better off on income support where she would get around £90 and be entitled to housing benefit!
Anne-Marie Osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 16:13:22 (BST)
ANS Conference Funding Discussion
I sat in on the Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland regions when student funding was discussed at the ANS Conference and the general concensus from feedback was that Salaries were a big NO and that increased bursaries were the way forward- No surveys, just students expressing their views, so lets listen to them, yeah????
Chris <cheadland@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 15:14:03 (BST)
From the ENB with Love
This is the actual reply as sent to me by the ENB as regarding the possibility of students having to do three weeks of nights.##############Thank you for your enquiry. I trust the following will provide helpful clarification regarding the "rumours" to which you refer. The Board's policy regarding 24 hour care experience is given in its Standard 8 (Practice Experience) published in its October 1997 document "Standards for Approval of Higher Education Institutions and Programmes" (page 22, criteria (e)). This criteria is that pre-registration nursing and midwifery students' experience includes the 24-hour cycle of patient/client care. The NHS Executive in its September 1998 Health Service Circular (HCS 1998/149) refers to the Board's Standards in stating that all pre-registration students must experience the full cycle of 24 hour care in order to meet their learning outcomes. The Board's more recent publication "Education in Focus (section one)" (January 2000, page 15, para 5.3) repeats the statement made in HSC 1998/149. It is for local curriculum developers to decide how to implement the Board's Standards. Detailed arrangements for students' practice experience - including the amount of night duty to be undertaken - are decided locally, not by this Board. So it seems that the rumours flying about have been just that. Perhaps the descion has been taken locally but it is NOT a nationwide policy.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:16:21 (BST)
Bursary Position
Can I make it clear that my views on the bursary vs salary debate are my own. If you wish to find out the RCN ANS view contact RCN HQ. I do not take up office until 18 October and if at that time the position of the RCN is to return to tha salary than as Chair I will publicly support this view. I believe in a democratic process but I must say that whwn the bursary was discussed at ANS conference I felt that the general opinion was that we retain the bursary albeit in a revised form. Perhaps if this wass mirrored throughout the ANS then my personal views are correct. As for the NT/UNISON survey, could someone tell me as I honesatly don't know were the students canvassed just UNISON members or were they just a representative sample of nursing students. If the former is true, then the surveys findings could be somewhat lis-leading. I'm sure someone can clarify thius point. Thanks
Andy McGovern
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 11:58:57 (BST)
Whats the problem?
Mike , what is your problem? I totally endorse Andy McGovern and Anne-marie O'Toole's position on Bursaries. I too am a member of the Conservative party and made the consious desicion to join RCN because of the excellent relationship between the two organisations. I too, like Anne-marie feel that only a conservative government will rid us of the burden of carrying Health Care Assistants around with us and free us up to be proffesionals. On the democratic front- It was actually the Tory Party that brought in elections in Trades Unions for General Secretaries and damm good job too i say. We in RCN do not have to have elections because we are not TUC affliated thank the Lord. I actually trust our Leadership to take these decisions for us such as salaries and our successor. Why on earth do we pay them what we do if they can not take a decision on our behalf. We can not afford a ballot everytime we have to make a decision that some members do not agree with and i believe young man that you may be in the minority. Yours Victor
Victor Underwood <vpfeud@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 10:33:25 (BST)
SHOCK - NO VOTE FOR RCN GEN SEC SUCCESSOR
I am shocked by reading Anne-marie O'Toole's very "Marie Antionette" view of Caring as in "let them be Care Assisstants!" Thankyou Louise of Plymouth for your Kind comments. I am having a serious think about whether to join UNISON or not at the moment. I would like to say that i have a big democratic problem with ANS. Andy, tell me when ANS members are going to be balloted on the Salaries position and if students win the fight they want in ANS, will you then defend that Position? The second Democratic Shocker is Christine Hancocks Successor. I have just rang RCN HQ and have been informed that unlike everyother union in Britain we as RCN members will be denied a vote for the successor to the £100,000 plus Ms "in my day" Hancock. I thought this was illegal? I really cannot believe this in this day and age. So a group of four Middle Aged Matrons will elect one of their own, yet again. God Help us Mike
Mike Phillips <mikephillips21@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 10:23:33 (BST)
To Lynette
I really hope you didn't feel that I was venting any of my frustrations towards yourself as that certainly was not my intention. I personally do not resent the extra £2,100 which you recieve, as there is absolutely no way in which our household could be run on the bursary you have. It is people in your and my situation that I am arguing for and I don't count your husband amongst those who 'choose' to be unemployed because in your case there is good reason. Your situation highlights the precise fact that I was trying to illustrate - that the low bursary is forcing more and more nursing students into poverty in one way or another. It's a classic case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. (Anyway I really don't think that anybody with the task of looking after 3 children can be classed as 'not working', I have 2 children and that's work enough for me thankyou!) And as for you feeling guilty for getting the extra please don't. You have no reason to and I'm sure any other nursing student would agree with me. I hope that this clears things up. Good luck with the rest of your course. Donna :-)
Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 23:16:18 (BST)
Yawn!
I thought that we had got over the necessity of people posting anonymous postings. If your not prepared to put your name to your "works or art", then what are you doing here? Your really not doing anybody any favours!
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 23:04:56 (BST)
resolution for you Lynette!
You have to keep hitting the 'refresh' button to reset the page as it cannot be updated when you are reading/writing messages. If this is not the problem it could be your ISP connection or just that this site is experiencing technical difficulties.
Ange
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:51:43 (BST)
bizarre
when I logged on about 5 mins ago the last message posted was from K. Nicol about 7 o'clock I just posted my message to find that in fact there are many messages in between...?what's that all about?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:23:25 (BST)
OH WHAT FUN
I just had great fun venting my spleen at those email address. thanks everyone.they are again Mel; mchevannes@dmu.ac.uk and Tony Smith; link@enb.org.uk . send them a message it is good fun. PLEASE WILL PEOPLE STOP GETTING SUCKED IN BY THE POLITICS. This is our fight if unions and political parties want to join in that is up to them we are going to have ensure that action is taken regardless of their indifference or interference. I like the sound of 20 th October. I assume you mean all venues Anne-Marie?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:19:03 (BST)
This website is getting boring and is enough to put off potential students with all the political crap that is posted onto it! There is a good side to training to be a nurse and we should all be comparing notes and giving advice about the training to each other, not whingeing on and arguing about politics!

- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:37:17 (BST)
On the beaches
I have this curious 'Kinnock in the waves' image which I cannot shake, what with the various heavyweights lining up in Brighton to consider the DOMEstic scene. I tell you, spend a day doing pointless moving and handling revision and all hell breaks loose. Sorry, had to say that, every time I have written anything before, someone else has written that! Anyway, politics schmolitics I say! I want to quote one of my heroes, and I believe the last leader of a multiparty parliament, Sir Winston Churchill. He suggested that with dark clouds on the horizon, it was time for "war, war" and not "jaw, jaw. I am astounded by the vigour and venom of those who would defend their allegiances and actions (sic) against all question or query. This rambunctious rambling suggests that at some given point they must be able to draw on previously hidden reserves of genuine passion. The debates raised since the conference of nursing students in Leicester have been treated with the disdain that all members interests should be... However, call someone in exulted status a lefty or a Tory and whoosh! I never knew that anyone wanting to take the fight to the enemy was allowed into the brilliant azure of the hierarchy? Ah, well, pay day today and I am off down the union. When I come back I would imagine all this heartfelt passion on behalf of the various 'unions' (sic) will have been converted into a 50% pay rise, better working conditions and a firm NO to the ENB proposals. That, or as ususal the only trace will be a warm brown stripe on the very gusset of nursings future, like German opera, all wind and water...
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:07:48 (BST)
:o)
Kris, Am not having a go, I just am intrigued that I am so important that somebody wants to pretend that they are me, maybe they would like the huge overdraft and debts that I have to go with the name!!!!! Anyway, lets get back to the real issues (ooh god sound like a politician!!!) and see some action from all these words!!! Reading both this site and other message boards for nursing students it is evident that there is some mud slinging going on from all sides. However it is important for us to pull together sometimes regardless of membership to get the best deal for nursing students that we can, isn't that the idea of these type of message forums-ACTION????? Bye-4-now Chris :o)
Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:05:35 (BST)
response to Andy
Andy as chair of ANS you are there to represent the views of ANS members, it is clear that you have no intention of doing this. Only a blind man could have failed to see the resounding YES to salaries from students across the country who took part in the NT/UNISON survey. 66% of students and 78% of qualified nurses say YES to a salary , you are out of touch. Theres no doubt it will be difficult to persuade the government to part with the necessary cash to deal with once and for all the issue of student poverty, but your narrow-minded, elitest, clap-trap will do nothing but set us back for years. Your predecessors did nothing to combat student hardship and it looks likely that you will do exactly the same (sweet FA).Mike is just one example of students who are fed up with your policies and who are looking to UNISON to make a difference, but obviously the ability of students to deal with hardship they face every day will be seriously hampered by the negative and narrow-minded stance you personally have chosen to take. ANS/RCN are working as a barrier to change and it is great that you have chosen to share this fact with members who put faith in you. Hopefully you will reconsider and work with UNISON to get the fairer deal that we surely deserve. Anyone who after seeing Andy's blatent admission that ANS has no intention of listening to its members can join UNISON by phoning FREEPHONE 08005979750. It would appear that it will only be when students vote with their feet that the RCN will listen to them. I hope this will lead to the RCN working constructively with other unions to win a better deal for student nurses
louise <lbrown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 20:00:07 (BST)
Im sorry
I didnt mean to stir up a hornets nest! I just wanted to whinge! My own politics are kind of muddled and i am deciding wether or not to vote monster raving looney party or someone else! All i was tying to say is that the unions that represent the student nurses should be working both sides of the political spectrum and not be one sided. I dont care wether yiou choose to vote Bill Clinton for president as long as he is concerned about student Nurses. I feel that all of the unions are being particularly innefective as per usual so it was just a general whinge. Be good and keep up the fight VIVA LA REVALOUTION!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 19:43:39 (BST)
Message Correction
I would just like to state that the supposed message written by myself had absolutely nothing to do with me and would like to clarify the following points: 1) I am not a conservative- infact follow a very independent view of politics 2) Comments made re: Owain, NUS UK are utter rubbish, have not met the guy as yet 3) Whoever dreamt up this mail and put my name to it obviously does not know my real email address. I will be mailing the webmaster of this site to have this innaccurate message removed. If whoever has written this piece on my behalf wouild like to identify themselves and talk to me directly to get my accurate views on any issue in Nursing, I will gladly discuss them. But please whoever it is at least get you facts straight next time!!!! Thanks Chris :o) Chris Headland RCN ANS (Wales)(Elect) NUS PT Officer
Chris Headland <cheadland@lineone.net>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 19:21:08 (BST)
Mike, people who know me, know that I'm not pompous what I am is a realist. I'd love to think that we could return to a salary and all its benefits but I know deep down it wont happen. I believe that student nurses deserve better funding and I also believe that no student should be forced ti finish their trianing due to hardship but at the end of the day I am only looking to the future. As a Diploma student myself and also the son of a nurse trained in the "old" way I know the meaning of excellence as I have seen the respect my mother got over the years spent caring for people. As for ambition, I came into nursing to care for people and I'll probably remain at the bed side for many years doing what I do best. I also care for student nurses and Iwant what is best. I've made it clear that I believe the Bursary to be th ebest method of funding nurse education albeit at a higher level, for ALL nursing students and have inbuilt mechanisms to provide extra means tested allowances foe people with dependents,single parents etc. I also believe that free creche facilities should be available for all students who need them and I would also like to see nursing students accessing student loans if necessary. I make no apology for not supporting a return to salaries I just believe campaigning for an adequate bursary is the best way forward.
Andy McGovern
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 18:04:16 (BST)
Here here for The Tories
I usually only read this and this is the first time i have ever posted anything on the board. Number one -STOP SLAGGING OFF RCN Two more things, i totally support Chris Headlands comments on our links with the conservative party, i think they are vital to ensuring we at the RCN get what we want. Yes they will privatise parts of our education and parts of the NHS but it is what is needed to ensure it's survival and get all these moaners and whingers Licked in to shape in the NHS. I also support Andy Mcgoverns point on "all graduate" entry to our profession. This will only be achieved through a Tory Government. Mike Phillips talks about Carers and people being put off by degrees! well Mike what are they doing being Nurses in the first place - let them be Health Care assisstants as that is where the majority of "caring" takes place. And as for all you UNISON Members out there- Get real, you are never going to get your campaign and if you really want a salary then what on earth are you doing being Nurses? You are dragging down the name of our proffession - go off and be Care assisstants and let us at RCN get on with the real job. Go GO RCN and GO GO Andy
Anne-marie O'Toole <swinginganna@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:57:18 (BST)
hi i'm a shocked newbie
Hi i am a student in my second year at University of East Anglia. I have just been directed to this site and to be quite frank i am shocked to see how it has been used. I thought it would be a nice constructive supportive chatroom. I am a member of ANS and i am embarrassed by our Chair- Andy McGovern's Patronising manner on this web site to both other ANS members and UNISON Members alike as if we don't understand what a crap deal we are getting, as if he knows "oh so much better than us" and "oh you are just kids - you just don't understand it do you?" - Why does it not feel like you are on our side Andy? I voted for you. I happen to know that UNISON do not wish to take us out of HIgher Education and i am starting to worry that making Nursing an all Graduate Proffession is the master plan of the RCN. How about all those caring people out there who are on diplomas and are going to be great nurses but just are not cut out for a degree. My mother is a fantastic nurse and trained "old Style" The idea of a degree would have put her off. An all graduate status will turn us in to manager pen pushers instead of hands on Caring Nurses. Maybe that is what you have ambitions for Andy but do not try and foist this on the rest of us who care deeply about our patients and work. I am also embarrassed by the fact we are as ANS members linked to the Conservative Party, i was unaware of this. The other point i would like to stress is that i can honestly say that at my University we have an excellent relationship with our students' Union and they really support us. ANS and UNISON Students work side by side and the majority of us up here back UNISON's campaign for Salaries as do the students' Union. RCN/ANS have organised no campaigns at all and every single campaigning issue up here has been with UNISON and the students' Union. RCN just do not realise how wrong they have got it this time. Fortunatley my cohort has a mind of it's own and has not been swallowing the poisonous line that has been peddeled out by RCN to us. I am getting angry just thinking about this. I feel loyal to RCN/ANS as that is who i joined and i thought i may be able to campaign within RCN/ANS to get them to change their policy on Salaries but now i see that even the ANS Chair doesn't back us i am starting to wonder and if i can't see any improvement soon then i fear i may have to leave and i am sure many will join me leaving pompous RCN/ANS as the ancient dinousour i am fast realising it is. Mike
Mike Phillips <mikephillips21@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:44:02 (BST)
p****d off!
I have just completed a shift at my new placement - my mentor has spent all of 2 minutes with me and sent me to help the auxillaries, I have been running errans to pharmacy for the other staff nurses, cleaning their medicine trolleys and making their drinks! When I asked to discuss my learning outcomes and objectives for the placement, I was subjected to a cold glare and remarks such as 'when I've got time'.I think I must have mistaken my role as student nurse for 'personal assistant' for all members of staff on the ward - including the ward clerk. How am I supposed to learn anything? When it comes to completing my competencies, it is I who will look inadequate and it is I who will recieve a poor grade. As every day passes I ask myself why I want to be a nurse, or is this going to change when I qualify? I doubt it. Surley there must be other ways to earn a living. The fact that I have a genuine interest in the care, safety and well-being of other people is making my life a misery. All this for £2.50p/h? Is it any wonder so many students are leaving their training?

- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:41:47 (BST)
First of all I would like to make it clear that I am not associated with any political party and that my own interests lie in the future of nursing and at teh the moment nurse education. Now I know you wont like my answer Louise in Plymouth nor I suspect will any other members of UNISON and I wish to make it clear that it my own opinion and not that of the RCN or the ANS. I fully appreciate your comparison between seconded students and direct entry students but the reality is that the agenda is already set. Nursing alongside professions allied to medicine will stay in higher education. Infact it is quite probable possibly inevitable that eventually nursing will be an all graduate level entry profession (see Making a Difference or whats happening Wales for evidence). To me teh salary vs. bursary issue is acomplete non starter and what we should really be fighting for is to increase and protect the current Diploma non means tested bursary and go further by fighting for it to available to under graduate nursing students. If we don't I can see a time when nursing students will be treated like all other PAMS and be subjected to means testing and even greater hardship. A salary would be ideal but lets face it does not make economic sense or put plainly the government couldn't sfford it. It's gonna be hard enough to change the burasry so let's be real and admit that the return to a salary just wont happen. Also to Louise I don't see how pointing out that UNISON didn't turn up to a recruitment day is throwing mud, I just thought as a supporter you may be interested. Oh by the way thanks for letting us know the RCN didn't turn up in Plymouth we will be looking into it. Fianlly lets get back on track Kris is right no more playground stuff lets debate the issues we may not agree but it makes life interesting
Andy McGovern
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 16:51:26 (BST)
SLEEP OUTS
Although i think doing the sllep outs near to the election is a good idea, i realy do believe that action is needed much sooner. I know the weather is getting bad but we really need to act now - intstead of just talking about it. So how a bout a Friday night on 20th october 2000. Even if the weather is crap it will only reflect our strength and determination for what we believe in. It also gives us four weeks to get ourselves and our respective unions into gear so we can work together. Please tell me what you think....i am getting fed up with just talking about it. Can a make a small point - not everyone in the rcn is opposed to student nurses getting bursaries - i helped at the unison stand at my university to recruit new students, and i asked the rcn officials if they would sign the unison petition (bursary back to salary thingy) and they did and they wholeheartedly agreed with the campaign *well who wouldn't - it is obviously all we are is an extra pair of hands. This is the first day of my new term , we have 6 weeks in placement and 6 weeks in uni - we have a 8 hour module concerning elderly and a 4 hour concerning rehab (amongst many others), but we have a rehab placement. I wonder why?! Could it be because our next placement is 12 weeks so we are to be sent to elderly (ithink they are quite short staffed!)
anne-marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Monday, September 25, 2000 at 15:40:34 (BST)
IDIOTS THEY ARE ALL IDIOTS
Having just finished visiting the RCN website, and having read all the postings about whether or not Christine 'in my day' Hancock actually deserves her huge pay packet, I feel like I am trying to push sand uphill. I am astounded that no sooner does someone post something criticising her and her inactivity then moments later, her personally selected bodyguard of die-hard RCN activists leap into defend their glorious leader! Its amazing despite the fact, and ill say it again because I've said it before, the Student bursary has actually GONE DOWN since the sainted Hancock has taken over. So despite the her bodyguards efforts I don't actually think that she is worth her wage. I am still poor and getting poorer and whilst she has enjoyed a pay raise the same cannot be said of me. Oh I got the pay raise allright but 2.5% of sod all is still 2.5% of sod all! I just want to say this sucks majorly, I love nursing, I love the job, I love the people I meet and work with (well most of them) but I do not enjoy being treated like an idiot or like some second class citizen. And too top it all the ENB have told me that I actually need to do more nights. Why well they haven't told me that but why would I want to know that I am only a nursing student after all I don't need to be told anything! I FEEL LIKE A MUSHROOM.....KEPT IN THE DARK AND FED ON SH#T! The tiny minuscule, feeble minded idiots who came up with this should be made to do all the night shifts they want and when they are up to their eyes in someone else's feaces then maybe they will realise what it is like to be a student nurse. I just cant believe it.. isn't nursing facing a recruitment crisis allready? They really do seem to be taking the piss. So if anyone from the ENB is reading this I would like to say you are an IDIOT and Nursing would be better off without the feeble-minded leadership like yours
Really quite annoyed
- Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 15:58:24 (BST)
Advice from an old soak...
The advice I can give you is don't worry! Enjoy your training because it will get serious enough in time any way. In regards to clinical placements, just latch onto someone who you can learn from, it doesn't matter if they are qualified or not and ask loads of questions! If there is something that you don't know or don't understand then don't be afraid of asking. In regards to the academic side read as much as possible and start your assignments as soon as possible because whilst you are doing clinical placements as well, the submission date arrives very quickly. But most importantly get involved, decision are being made that will directly affect you so get involved whether it be with the RCN/ANS or UNISON or even the NUS. Nursing servants need a voice and it can only come from those who are actually undergoing it. So don't become another one of the apathetic crowd, stand out and make a difference. If you have anything that you want to know about the academic side, or if you just want general advice then you can e-mail me. All is left to say take it easy and don't let the b######s grind you down!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 12:39:50 (BST)
advice
I start my training tomorrow to become a nurse I was just wondering if anyone had any advice
Tina
- Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 10:54:02 (BST)
Nights
I had to do 4 weeks of night duty for a placement. The last night I did I finished at 7.30 am on Christmas eve 1999. I know of some in my class who had to do nights in the ITU wards here and that meant they had to do 14, 12 hour shifts in the space of three weeks.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 22:55:03 (BST)
Well said there Louise
How many more examples are we going to have to see of students being taken the piss out of before we get rid of the main reason why students are treated so unfairly. Being the lowest paid members of staff in the NHS means, as Louise said, that its just so easy for us to be ground down just that little bit further. An extra night here and an extra night there, what's the difference? This sacred cow that is the bursary and is held up as the be all and end all is now just well past its sell by date. Its time for a salary for all students not just the few who manage to get seconded by their NHS trust.
Dominic Forristal <dominic@unisonfree.net>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 19:37:12 (BST)
This just says it all
All of this exchange about students being even more used as cheap labour to fill staffing gaps just illustrates the need to end for once and for all the exploitation we all face. The only reason NHS trusts and now perhaps even the ENB see us as cheap labour is because we are exactly that. The only way to deal with their 'temptation' is to make sure we enjoy the same rights as other NHS staff i.e. salaried status. At least then we would be paid for all the work we put into the health service. Why is the bursary seen by some as such as a sacred cow - secondees seem to be doing quite well - why couldn't we?
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 19:12:01 (BST)
Nights
Is this night thing for real, or just hear say????? I cannot believe that our uni's can possibly make us do 3 weeks of nights per placement, as all my placements to date have been no longer than 28 days period. Does anyone know the facts.............. I love working nights as a HCA (on the bank) as I can usually get loads of studying done I usually get paid for it though DON'T U THINK
Daniel <dja199@soton.ac.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:13:46 (BST)
Poor Mel
Don't just do Mel, do all the board members. The chief executive at the ENB is Tony Smith CBE and you can email views marked for his attention at link@enb.org.uk
Ray Rowden
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:05:34 (BST)
Nights!!!!
I'm glad to see we are all of the same opinion about these bloody nights! so come on everyone email Mel at the ENB.....united we stand! that address once more is..mchevannes@dmu.ac.uk
Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:07:40 (BST)
Taking Action
I have not been here for a couple of days and I was pleased to see the amount if discussion that is going on. I have spoken to people at my university and we thought about sleeping out in Edinburgh on Thursday 1st of March and going to parliament on the Friday we have to find out how far in advance the parliament is disbanded before the election and stuff. If it is before this date then we will bring it forward. If any one wants a copy of the petition then please E-mail me.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 16:19:45 (BST)
Write a message to say how bad the ENB decision is
If anybody at all and I mean anybody has concerns about how this ENB directive will affect student Nurses then please please drop MEL CHEVANNES a line at the address on the previous posting. If everyone who visits this site posts at least one response to her or to the other members of the ENB then maybe they will be made aware of just how unamused we are by this idea
NOT REALLY AMUSED
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 14:33:12 (BST)
I think it is time.....
Mel Chevannes E-mail Address(es): mchevannes@dmu.ac.uk
Fearful Student at sh#t college
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 14:02:43 (BST)
I forgot...
Sorry, I forgot to say, could some kind soul transfer these details to the Rcn student site, I have got to dash. Thanks Ray
Ray Rowden
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:59:09 (BST)
More starch
In my day we never were allowed to marry and certainly, even the few shameful hussies who did, would never have allowed THAT to go on. No, children should b neither seen nor heard as far as the noble calling of nursing is concerned. Perhaps those weak willed fornicators should put more starch in their bonnets and less in their husbands naughty parts. It never happened in my day.............Flo....................................................................ps have you tried Mrs Beaton's excellent household management book, the servants swear by it
Matron
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:59:05 (BST)
ENB and nights
The ENB is up for extinction at some time in the future so are unlikely to rock any boats, but thought I would let you know who sits on it. Can I suggest that as many students as possible flood these people with mail at their work place and let them know what you think of their decision. You will note that there are no seats for students on their board! Chair, Ron De Witt, CEO, Kings College Hospital, London. Pam Charlwood, CEO, Avon Health Authority, Bristol. Mel Chevannes, Leicester Uni. Pat Oakley, Director of a consultancy company called Practice Makes Perfect. Jeff Thompson, A professor at Bath Uni. Jan Stevens, Director of Nursing, Hereford Hospitals NHS Trust. Contact addresses can be found on the net for all of them. Make their postbag as busy as hell, it might make them reflect!
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:53:44 (BST)
Suffer ye O little children
Why is it that during their training, Student Nurses are obliged to travel the inner cities or run-down council estates with Health Visitors, to find poverty. If it is poor kids you want, go home with one of you classmates who is a parent. I want to say proud but that is all to stereotypical, "we 'ad nowt, but 'appen we were reet proud like". No, I think the question is, how many Student Nurse parents took their kids to f###ing Tuscany this year, for me it was a caravan in f###ing Tenby
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:47:01 (BST)
P.S.
especially in light of this night shifts THEY ARE TAKING THE PISS!!!!(excuse the language)!
Lynette
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:39:06 (BST)
Ranting on again!
Well thankyou Donna, you opened a passage in which I could then speak through. Both you and Anne-Marie speak of the problems with the funding. If my funding was enough my husband wouldn't have had to give up work to look after our children (child care costs being silly as I mentioned before, for three children). For that I get £2100 I have felt guilty about whining on about money when I know I probably get more than the majority of people that visit this site. I do know that it still is not enough to support three children and my husband. I know also that I am certainly not allright jack and that no other student Nurses are, because we are not just suffering from low pay we undervalued also. I will not stop with the protesting until the Government can trouble themselves to put their trust in all of us and invest in us.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:36:26 (BST)
Used and abused (again)
Having also just seen the proposal that students now do at least three weeks of nights per placement I have to add my voice to the growing crowd. I have to ask the ENB one thing DO WE LOOK F#####G STUPID? Well at least we now know where we stand we are nothing more than a resource to be exploited. Boy oh boy which Rocket scientist in the ENB came up with this idea? My advice to whomsoever came up with this idea... DON'T EVER GET SICK IN MY HOSPITAL!!!
NOT AMUSED
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:34:33 (BST)
Who wants a fight?
Is anybody else feeling just marginally p####d off about the ENB's proposal about wanting students to do more night shifts? (Re. Andy McGovern, RCN website). I cannot believe this is happening. Anybody that was at the RCN ANS conference will know that we voiced our opinions loud and clear that student exploitation at the moment is clearly at a level that is unacceptable. The RCN hasn't given any sort of response to this (surprise, surprise) but what does everybody else think? I'm absolutely f###### thrilled! I find it hard enough already to fit in my bank shifts without this to complicate things. Are they trying to get more students to give up the course? If they are I think that this is the greatest plan in the history of mankind. Is it me or does anybody else think that I am being a little sensitive on this issue?
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:13:08 (BST)
Shhh, don't look now but...
It's true, no one can see it but me it seems! I feel like the person that saw the person that really shot Kennedy, or an alien abductee! Apparently, as far as I can tell, nursing students still get crap wages, they still get the piss taken out of them with rostering and the nature of the tasks required of them. But now, they are going to be used to save bank qualified costs on the wards, by covering night shifts. Learning opportunities nil! What is the appropriate response? The word no, loudly and clearly and who is going to say it? Apparently no-one. I am no Steven Hawking, but 'at least three weeks per placement' is really not a lot different from 'a maximum of 12 shifts'. So what is being done? I would heartily recommend students 'work to rule' and get on with some vigorous observing until the wards and those a#######s at the ENB realise that enough is enough. Meanwhile, as I write I should imagine some Innuit on the Great Greenland glacier is being awoken by a hospital human resources manager looking for potential nurses. Is anyone else as mad as me, or am I still seeing things doctor?
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 12:31:47 (BST)
Now Now children...
How are we expected to achieve anything when the two main unions that represent students and Nurses are involved in a mud slinging contest? Shades of the schoolground here children! In response to the points raised by the UNISON corner, yes students are annoyed by what we perceive as foot dragging by the RCN, yes I believe as do a number of my colleagues that some people in the RCN are more concerned with increasing their public profile and collecting their wage packet then they are in fighting for an improvement in the pay and conditions for Nurses of all types. However I do not believe that this is the time, place or forum for political point scoring from one union rep to another. The main reason I didnt join UNISON was because I had no wish to support unwillingly a particular political party. I believe that all Unions should be concentrating on lobbying all political parties to achieve their aims and not seek to become bedfellows with just one for whatever reasons. Now that I have stated just how annoyed as a student I am at both Unions, the RCN and UNISON perhaps we can return to some measure of normality and stop insulting each others politics?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 11:48:35 (BST)
Proposed changes to nurse training
Can someone please help a disillusioned ex-P.2000 student with some relevant advice on how he gets back in to complete his training?. I have made so many attempts to return, but I am getting nowhere. I got as far as taking the branch finals before quitting the course, due to personal reasons. Now I read about this change to pre-registration courses, I wonder where I fit in. This new course talks about accrediting prior learning, I managed to get some acknowledgment that I am entitled to a certificate in health studies , but it means nothing!. I have applied for health care assistant posts, only to be told that I did not get an interview because I don't hold NVQ II or III, now I work in a nursing home, and they want me to take NVQ II because it is a requirement of the job, so my prior training and 20 years of experience in nursing amounts to zero. Give a thought to those, like me, who have failed, yet feel that they have a lot to offer, but are held back, and if anyone out there has any information, I will be glad of it.
Mark Marsh <Slaterminnie@aol.com>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 11:38:46 (BST)
Mug Slinging
Ray - I agree that its important for RCN and Unison to work together on combating student hardship and your contribution earlier that perhaps there should be a joint lobby of Parliament sounds good. Its important to note though that it was Andy McGoven who started the mud slinging yesterday when I asked a simple question about a central part of RCN's opposition to Unison's campaign for salaried status. That was if secondees can receive a wage and not be reduced to an extra pair of hands why would the rest of us on the diploma be if we too received a salary. The problem at the moment is that the RCN/ANS position is more defined by what they are opposed to rather than being in favour of anything - their opposition to salaried status. The Unison/NT survey shows clearly the RCN/ANS is out of touch with students AND registered staff - hence the anger you refer to. All the time the profession is divided we will get nowhere - Unison is here whether Andy like's it or not. Andy - all I ask is that you listen to your own members and work constructively with your colleagues from other unions - if you throw mud it will be thrown straight back.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 09:42:49 (BST)
Out of hours work
Sarah - I've heard nothing about this from my uni but am returning to college from placement next week so there may be 'good news' waiting for us. I personally get so much more out of placements than from being stuck in a classroom but there definitely needs to be a balance here. We certainly aren't here to be used as cheap labour to cover the shift other don't want. On my last placement I did exactly the same shifts as my mentor which meant quite a few out of hours work but the need to shadow your mentor needs to be included with protection to ensure we are just 'an extra pair of hands'. The unison survey in NT earlier this month showed how exploited we all are - we all deserve a salary for the hard work we all put into our training of that there can be no doubt.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 09:28:35 (BST)
NUS
I feel I have to respond to the postings tonight. To Anna, who seems to want to take a shot at Andy, may I say that for her to suggest that the Rcn is somehow comparable with the BNP is gross and offensive. Christine Hancock, Rcn Gen Sec was the FIRST major NHS union leader to publicly accept the problems of institutional racism in health services after the Lawrence Inquiry. As an Rcn member I am proud that Christine has continued to raise this issue on a number of platforms. Andy has only just taken over as ANS chair, with a new committee and student council member, Suren. The ANS are having a key strategy meeting in November. I know, from emails I have had from students that the new ANS committe is well aware of the anger felt by students. Give Andy, Suren and the new committee a chance to set out their stall. Maggie, from UNISON is a great woman and does a good job in her staff side role, but remember that the Rcn, as a key player in staff side, supports Maggie in her staff side role. With the issues facing nursing lets not get into a UNISON v RCN battle. We are both unions, we must both fight for nurses and respect our differences. As for the NUS, I can only ask how great have they been? We now have students in England and Wales saddled with charges for study, yet in Scotland, no fees apply. Some track record on which to lecture the Rcn then! The NUS has also been the training ground for a good number of new labour lieutenants who are now part of the control freak tendency in Millbank, and I have to confess that I am a labour party member. The Rcn may have its problems, but it consists of its members, all 310,000 of them. We will remain an organisation that is there for nurses, please do not make offensive remarks about our capacity to represent nurses and nursing.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 23:34:51 (BST)
Warning
our university has informed us that the ENB has advised them that all student nurses should extend their experience of night duty. As a result of this we now have to work 3 weeks of nights as part of each and every placement! is this happening everywhere? and if so,do we have to do them? I mean its not as if we are not exploited enough is it? now we have to do nights and with no extra pay
Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 23:25:48 (BST)
Glasgow Evening Times
More nurses forced into a second job By Vivienne Nicoll THE number of nurses forced to work two jobs to make ends meet has jumped to nearly one in three and some are working as waitresses or in pubs to make ends meet. The shocking statistic is revealed in a new survey by health care union Unison, which shows that 81 percent of nurses believe they are not well paid. Unison´s Scottish organiser for health, Jim Devine, said: "Last year, for the first time ever, more nurses left the profession than were recruited. The average age of a trained nurse is 47 and our survey highlights the reason why." Mr Devine added: "It a matter of great concern that we have staff who take up a second job just for their day to day living. "We face a major problem with recruitment and retaining nurses unless we deal with the problem." As much as 79 percent of nurses have considered leaving their job, with more than half saying they are seriously job-hunting. Over half said the number of patients they deal with has increased while around the same number complained of staff shortages. Around 85 percent claimed their workload had increased, while two- thirds believe patient expectations have risen. Unison is planning to submit the survey to its pay review body and is calling for a significant increase and a change in the pay grading system.

- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:41:33 (BST)
Nursing Times
Nurses have demanded 'substantial' pay rises from the government in next year's public sector salary awards. Unions say special attention should be given to the pay rates of non-registered nursing staff and to recognise the increasing responsibilities taken on by senior nurses. They have called on the Pay Review Body, who will make its recommendations to the government on wage rises for the public sector in Spring next year, for the need to make improve nurses' pay to ensure increased recruitment, address retention and build morale among nurses, midwives and health visitors in all grades. In their submission to the Review Body, the unions highlighted the low pay on non-registered nurses, who can earn as little as £8,225 per year. They have called for senior nurses, who earn over £30,000 a year, to be given pay rises to compensate for the extra work they are expected to do. The NHS plan, published in July, included plans to increase the power of senior nurses and heralded the creation of "modern matrons" in charge of hospital wards. Nurses will be given new powers to prescribe drugs, treat minor wounds and discharge patients, as well as controlling budgets for conditions on wards. Maggie Dunn, Chair of Staff Side, said: 'Nursing staff are continuing to work harder than ever, and are taking on new and more demanding roles and responsibilities. 'It's vital that the PRB builds on the pay awards of the last two years to ensure that the NHS continues to recruit and retain experienced nursing staff. The NHS has to increase the number of skilled nursing staff if it is to achieve high quality patient care.'

- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:35:28 (BST)
From The Times today
Nurses demand pay parity with police recruits BY HELEN RUMBELOW, MEDICAL REPORTER NURSES demanded a "substantial" pay rise yesterday to attract recruits on the same salary as new police officers. Their unions also claimed that senior nurses should be paid more to reward them for their greater status and roles under the Government's health service reforms. The shortage of nurses forces hospitals to be increasingly dependent on hiring nursing staff from overseas, despite the above-inflation pay rise that British staff have been paid in the past two years. Maggie Dunn, chairwoman of Staff Side, an umbrella group of nursing unions, pointed out that the hiring of large numbers of overseas nurses indicated that wages had to be improved. Nurses' representatives highlighted the difference between their starting salaries and the pay packet of police recruits. A newly qualified staff nurse starts on a salary of £14,890, which is more than £2,000 below the starting wage of a police constable. New recruits must undergo three years' training to qualify to be a nurse, while the training period for a police constable is two years, although in both professions training involves long periods of supervised work with the public. Nursing staff, moreover, face slower career progression than police, they said. Newly registered staff nurses would advance to £16,445 four years after joining the National Health Service. On promotion, they might reach £19,220, the top salary for an experienced staff nurse. A police constable, by contrast, would advance without promotion to £21,567, four years after completing the initial training. The independent Pay Review Body is to make recommendations on nurses' pay early next year; these are then decided upon by ministers. The NHS reforms announced in July heralded the creation of "modern matrons" who would take control of hospital wards, and many duties would be devolved to nurses, especially in GPs' surgeries and in Accident & Emergency departments. The reforms also pledged to increase the number of nurses by 20,000 in four years - an attempt to overcome the present shortfall of 17,000. An annual poll earlier this year of priorities that matter to nurses showed for the first time the recruitment crisis has overtaken pay as an issue. Ms Dunn said: "Nursing staff are continuing to work harder than ever and are taking on new and more demanding roles and responsibilities. "It is vital that the Pay Review Body builds on the pay awards of the last two years to ensure that the NHS continues to recruit and retain experienced nursing staff." But Lord Denham, a health minister, pointed out yesterday that nurses' pay had increased by at least 17 per cent since 1997 and that some staff had enjoyed a 25 per cent rise. The Department of Health stated last night that part of the reform of the NHS would see a huge increase in the number of nurses. To this end, it said, it had to "carefully balance" the issues of better rewards for nurses with the cost of paying extra salaries. The department also said that a lot of the nursing shortages were a result of the differences in the cost of living across the country, and that it was planning to introduce pay commensurate with regions. This move would extend the concept of London-weighting to all of Britain's more expensive towns.

- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:32:43 (BST)
Sleep Out
I've just spoken to our local Unison nursing student officer and there will be something organised that ALL students can get involved in if they want because the issue of student hardship is far too important to leave to the devices of one group - we must all work together. Everyone - get in touch with your local UNISON/RCN branch and see if they are prepared to support some kind of local action. From what everyone's said there's easily enough to make sure the whole country is covered. I don't see why though some need to get into such detail - our message needs to be crystal clear. If seconded students can receive a wage and not be turned into an extra pair of hands why would we? Andy - still waiting for your response after your message you posted to "TO: L.Brown Plymouth." We can all do without that kind of stuff - let's work together instead.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:40:39 (BST)
Nailing ANS/RCN Lies
Hi Mr McGovern and Chris Headland, Unbeknown to you I have been checking out various websites recently and would like to put you both right on a few points about some of the mis-leading propaganda you have been banting around. Which I advise ALL Nursing students to take note of so they are able to distinguish what are complete lies in the future. My Knowledge of RCN and UNISON is pretty comprehensive as is my knowledge of Nursing Education. I wrote the joint Charter for Nursing and Midwifery education whilst I was at the National Union of Students with UNISON, RCN & RCM. I currently sit on the Department of health's Forum for Healthcare students alongside all and organise the joint NUS/Nursing Student events. At none of these events has any student come out in support of RCNs position on the Salary as put forward by Chris Headland one of your Grand Leaders of ANS. Andy McGovern, your Grand Grand Leader may talk about campaigning and if they are serious about this then they should stop wasting their time on the ANS chatroom and get on and do some campaigning, like those of us in UNISON. Points I'd like to make - In NUS, I was completely unbiased about the whole UNISON/RCN thing. Mainly because I didn't know about it or understand it. I spent two years writing the Charter only to have it ruined when ANS tried to organise a launch of it (whilst I was on maternity leave, so I didn't know about it)with William Hague. They also put other organisations names to the launch who didn't know about it. When everyone found out the whole thing was cancelled and many people pulled out of that backing. Our so called Joint campaign for decent educational and professional standards in Nursing was ruined by ANS in one fell swoop. Another aspect of joint campaigning gone wrong was when every single organisation backed the Government's position to allow Health Care Assistants to be seconded to the Nursing Diploma, all except RCN/ANS. Fortunately the rest of us won and it resulted in the final straw for NUS who immediately voted to not recognise or work with the RCN. This means if you are an RCN member you are not entitled to the double protection of both nus and your organisation, only UNISON and The RCN can provide that now. Another example of so called Joint working was when Universities were Charging students for their Uniforms. RCN/ANS, refused to back our campaign, we were calling for this practice to be abolished and other organisation were supporting us and in the end we not only won but got a refund for every student. Now with this fantastic well supported campaign, by organisations and MPs alike as well as the Majority of RCN/ANS student members, you again are poo pooing it. Students do not be fooled in to thinking they really think the UNISON campaign is bad, they haven't come up with anything better and if you click on www.rcn.org.uk and go on the student online forum, you will see how hated the RCN leadership is hated for their stance on the UNISON campaign, you will also see real members getting really angry about Christine Hancock. The only reason they speak badly about the UNISON Campaign is because they didn't think of it first and it is our campaign. We have time and time again offered the olive branch to work together on this because we really want to see it happen. Do not be fooled either that thinking that any campaign RCN/ANS come up with now will be well supported, apart from the Nursing Standard which is RCN's Mouth piece anyway, national Media and Local Media support our campaign, as do MP's and other Organisations, the main one being NUS who refuse for many reasons now to work or support RCN/ANS nursing students. The only other people we ever voted to ban were two religious militia groups, Macdonalds, Nestle and the BNP, which shows you what high regard RCN is held in these days. Anna D'Arcy Former National Union of Students, National Spokesperson for Nursing and Midwifery Education.
Anna D'Arcy <a.darcy@unison>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:40:24 (BST)
£sd
Roger is right to raise the issue of a bursary/grant which actually allows the student the right to live and reflect the "work" element whilst on the course. This is, by any international standard a rich nation. Trouble is, the government, in their recent evidence to the pay review body are crowing about record numbers of students entering nursing. (See www.doh.gov.uk and click on latest) What they fail to point out is the high attrition rates from nursing courses. If they are going to get the extra thousands of nurses promised in the NHS plan they sure are going a funny way about it.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:22:15 (BST)
Still waiting Andy......
So after those contributions we can take it that RCN members consider their subscriptions as being money well spent?! Andy - I can hardly wait for your response to my question but I'm not holding my breath.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:19:15 (BST)
'The Blood Donor' starring....
Dear All I have been thinking since the momentous conference about nothing other than the points we tried to raise and the pints we did raise! The '26' problem is one that besieges my mind a lot. At the none too tender age of 35, I have trouble remembering 26 but I do remember that it did not appear to cost any more than 25, or less than 27. That said, I know from experience that by the time I was 26 I was already, as the banks say, servicing several debts and despite earning a relatively handsome salary, needed to be wary. I cannot imagine that I could have started this course at 32 if I had not had the additional finances available to the mature (and fuller figured) student. However, it is not unreasonable to assume that younger people cannot have existing debts, given that banks will lend anything to anyone today. I am left feeling that ALL student nurses should receive financial provision to the extent that regardless of age or existing fiscal encumbrances, they should be able to afford the course. I have been amazed by some of the information about other courses that I gathered at the ANS conference. The idea of limiting the number of days committed to shifts and the idea that some colleges will not allow students to be routinely used and abused as glorified bank staff. Amazing! The thorny problem of dependants and partners seems to be filled with pitfalls. The system does seem to punish those with children and the laughable provision of childcare facilities is an insult. Given the ridiculous lengths most wards are obliged to go to employ part-time 'returnees', the struggles that student nurses are required to put up with are unacceptable. The fact is that there should be a free (yes FREE) crèche/kindergarten available for those training within every hospital/healthcare setting. Additional funds should be available to meet the cost of raising a family, and the existence of another wage should not condemn that family to poverty by virtue of a dual income. It is laughable that as a student, you work with so many of the disadvantaged groups within society, and are taught to empathise and understand their plight. In reality, many have a far higher standard of living than the students caring for them. The free prescriptions and housing and various other benefits available because of their poverty, mean that they actually 'earn' more than most diploma students and definitely all degree students. Then when you consider the effort that government puts into NOT paying student nurses and TO paying the tactically unemployed, well I find it grates a wee bit. The mechanism for paying students who are parents will require a little thought, and given this Governments love affair with vouchers, some care. I cannot remember the military model but it had built in bonuses for the cost of prodigy. Perhaps that would be a good place to start. ON A MORE TERRIFYING NOTE!!!! Was anyone aware that not satisfied with doing NOTHING for U.K. student nurses to justify her VAST wage and recent PAY RISE, the Sainted Hancock is about to stand unopposed for the chairwomanship of the I.C.N.. This will be voted on during the bun-fight in Copenhagen (I wonder if she is going by ferry and sleeping in her car) and will then be able to receive a vastly inflated wage for working tirelessly for her OWN SELF-ADVANCEMENT. Not that I begrudge her what is now £89,000 a year. So in the meantime, I shall try and fire my tiny lizard-sized brain into action and do some sums on the family question. Take care all of you, especially those whose party politics did not stop them partying harder than the rest! (PS the last vestiges of our pre-mammalian past are described as the Lizard part of the brain, it is the bit that makes you do all the easy but useful stuff, breathe, walk..) Rog
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:23:18 (BST)
what are we paying her for?????
Did any of you goto the ANS conference, well I was the loud one from Southampton. Why did Christine Hancock bother turning up she didn't answer any of her Questions or she just skimmed issues, I don't think that justifies £85,000 DO YOU???????
Stuart Rotman <sjr1198@soton.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:03:38 (BST)
WORKING TOGETHER!
Andy - As I said earlier we all need to work together if we are to get a better deal for nursing & midwifery students. If you want to know the RCN didn't bother turning up when I started my course last September but I would prefer that we could work constructively together. I did notice though that you were unwilling to answer my question on if seconded students haven't been reduced to an extra pair of hands why would I be if I too received a decent income?
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 14:32:42 (BST)
To :L Brown Plymouth
It's nice to know UNISON are fighting for you down in Plymouth, they're don't seem interested up here at Keele Uni. I've just done a recruitment day for the RCN to attract new students and UNISON haven't even bothered to turn up!!!! Not that I'm bothered obviously it suits me fine. As the incoming Chair of the RCN ANS however I would appreciate it if you would judge the new committee on its achievements in 12 months time. I appreciate that the ANS does not actually represent your interests, but I'm sure like every other politically aware student (and there aint many of us about), you'll be waiting with bated breath to see if the new ANS has any bite!! Personally, I believe the new ANS will listen to ANS members and will take action on the issues that matter but we need everyones input so feel free to email me and my colleagues together we can make a difference. Finally, with regard to the sleep out personally I support it and I feel certain that the ANS exec also supports the principle. Keep up the fight and if I can help email me. Andy McGovern
Andy McGovern <andy_mm_99@yahoo.com>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:55:05 (BST)
Sleep outs
I totally agree with Donna - I know how you feel. I am a struggling single mum, my daughter is almost 4, and although she is not demanding I always put her first. Well I am sure most parents would be in agreement with me here. As to the sleep outs - would it be viable for students with children to go along to the sleep out for an hour or so just to offer their support. perhaps even taking their children with them (though I realise it is unfair to involve our children in this issue - but it does underline the point regarding affordable childcare. We really must make a stand and ensure this sleep out occurs. My local branch of UNISON have agreed to help with travelling expenses and refreshments for students travelling from Huddersfield - and I am almost sure that I can find ten students willing participate. Have other students managed to get support from their local RCN/UNISON branches? I know it is easy to feel despondent and hopeless with this issue as other students are not always supportive - "its not going to effect me" attitude. Personally if I do not benefit from trying to get a wage/livable bursary from this campaign, but future student nurses it will still be worth all our efforts. Down with apathy.
Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:05:03 (BST)
Having our cake and eating it....
The diferent rates for students depending on when we were born I agree Donna is just taking the piss - I'm 24 and have noticed that although the NHS receives a discount for my work - I don't seem to receive a discount for my rent, food, bills etc. As for the childcare whilst NHS staff often have some provision (inadequate) we get no support. When its suits 'them' we are students i.e. no access to benefits and then we are told we are workers when it suits 'them' and are not allowed student loans. Those who managed to get seconded on a wage are so much better off than the rest of us, not that I hold it against them because its great that at least some of us aren't having to struggle like the rest of us. Shouldn't we all be able to get a decent wage? I'm really confused about the RCN position about salaried status. I've heard all about that 'extra pair of hands' lark but the example of seconded students seems to me at least to deal with that argument - they haven't been transformed into an extra pair of hands and are treated the same as diploma students. We need to speak with one voice when we have our sleep outs - isn't a salary a sensible idea? Although some seem to think unison is a little 'strident' they are the only ones to be willing to support us all. In NT the overwhelming majority of students and registered staff support that demand - why don't we go for that and aim for mid October.....
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 11:34:01 (BST)
Hear Hear!
Well said Donna! I am in total agreement, I'm also in exactly the same position. I start on Monday, leave my job today and am losing £500 per month as of next week! I just with the 'powers that be' would take notice of what people are saying and just act. Believe me, they wouldn't have the crisis in nursing numbers if they paid the students (and qualified for that matter) the wage that we really deserve! OK moaning over, I'd love to get involved in the sleep-outs, but with 2 young children, its impossible for me, but I am 150% behind you all!
Heather <leheluja@aol.com>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 10:09:06 (BST)
Fed-up before I've even started!
Hello everybody, I am due to start my DipHe in 10 days time. I read this forum regularly and find it a great source for information. The sleep-outs are a great idea - but don't forget that there are those of us with children who may find it impossible to join in, however much the idea appeals.... My gripe though (as I've posted before) is the lack of affordable child-care. Given the fact that the government has been targeting people like me for it's recruitment program, i.e. early 30's with family and a husband/partner with a steady income blah blah, you would think that they would appreciate that child-care is going to be a major issue? OHHH.. silly me, of course not - because that would be too much like having my cake and eating it! I would like to make it clear that I am not putting my needs before nursing students without children, just that it is another case of "I'm alright Jack" mentallity from the powers-that-be. To say that £4,805 p/a is adequate for anybody who is working is insulting enough. For the government to then add £605 because I'm over 26yrs (why is the cost of living considered to be less if you are 25yrs, 24yrs, 23yrs etc.????) but to then state that if you are a single parent you may claim an extra £1,800p/a BUT NOT the mature student addition, AAAAARGGGHHH, you get my point, don't you? I don't want to state that as married mother with 2 children that I deserve any more allowances than anybody else, but even a lizard with half a brain would realize that child-care costs money - all of my bursary actually! - I am in agreement with everybody else who submits to this forum, that student nurses deserve a MUCH better deal whatever their circumstances. To have children was MY choice, so I really don't see why other people should be made responsible for them. I, DONNA made the choice to go in to nursing because I WANTED TO. While there are people like us who are willing to put-up with being treated no better than those who choose NOT to work, (those who rely on the state for their Nintendo 64's, digital T.V. and their 10 children, i.e those who see no reason to work when they can get it all for nothing from the state and demand a bigger house from the council when they run out of space - not the genuine unemployed), anyway (sorry about that) while the NHS can still recruit under these circumstances, they WILL have the upper-hand. Unrealisitic as this may sound, I truly believe that anybody who is due to start this term should withdraw from their course stating that "due to my financial situation, I regret that I am unable at this time, to undertake a nursing diploma. I deeply regret this, but hope that this will not affect any future decision to 'employ' me on another DipHe course as I really feel that I would be an asset to health profession as a dedicated and caring individual who would really like the chance 'to make a difference'. I really believe that I could make an excellent nurse, but wihtout another 5k per year I no longer see this as a possibilty. Yours sincerely etc. etc. OK BACK TO REALITY, WHERE ARE THE SLEEP-OUTS? I'M COMING! Love and best wishes to all who stick the 3yrs, Donna. xxx
Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net>
- Friday, September 22, 2000 at 03:20:06 (BST)
ACTIVE TIMES
I am in the London area as I have said before. Next week I will be seeing my colleagues at my university. I don't know if they are interested in doing anything, as it goes I think that the apathy that many have spoken of maybe likely, however I will attempt to rattle their rusty cages on the subject. I am anxious to hear an actual date in which we can focus on for the day of ACTION as it has been said before: we need to act together on the same day to really make our point.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 20:16:22 (BST)
Sleep Outs
I've just found this site - its great to hear of other students around the country wanting to do things.A group of us had a sleep out last April in Bristol which went really well - loads of local nurses came out to support us and the event was heavily covered in the press. We even managed to get into the Nursing Times although we did notice that the standard didn't give it one coloumn inch. I must admit my experience of getting support from my union has been completely different from all those who expressed frustration at 'Handcocks half hour' at ANS conference. Almost all of us the The University of Plymouth are members of Unison and they couldn't have done more to support our campaigns on travelling expenses and student hardship. It makes a real difference to have someone working for you - not against you. I just don't understand why you would consider giving money to an organisation that isn't prepared to support you on issues that matter to you. Enough of that - if we can link in together with other students around the country that would be great - we have a few tricks planned for October so if anyones interested in coming down to Exeter, Bristol or Plymouth get in touch. Maybe we could have stuff going on all around the country - we certainly need to all work together regardless of which union we choose to join.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 17:35:18 (BST)
Sleep Outs
What Nursing Student's are saying to us is they want to continue the protests and if anything want us to step them up, but feel isolated. We have used "Sleep Outs" since the early 1990's (London, Leicester, Derby,Northampton, York, UWE) to raise public awareness of nursing students local and national grievances, most have had at least some limited success, all secured television coverage which is vital. At Greenwich we organised the vote for strike action by nursing students in the nurses home which stopped the evictions. If we are to now move forward to a national day of action, including sleep outs to secure local and regional coverage we need joint working and a broad based campaign with a platform agreeable to the majority (i.e.) student poverty, affordable accommodation, travel expenses, equalities issues and no doubt others. We need to build from the bottom, we must have at least ten people in every University willing to do something and we need to secure resources to fund leaflets, posters, stickers, badges etc. Timing will also be critical we need to build up morale locally and head for a national day. When do we feel is a good time to head for, remembering that the general election will still likely to be May 1st 2001. Regards
Michael Walker <m.m.walker@Unison.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 13:03:28 (BST)
Just an idea, but with all this talk of sleep outs, aren't there any student nurses either in Brighton or prepared to travel to Brighton for a certain party conference next week. I think a group of student nurses sleeping on the pavement outside the Grand Hotel may attract someone's attention?
Cherie
- Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 01:46:48 (BST)
Rcn ballots
Students on this site might like to see the RCN site, the thread is MEMBERS ISSUES, take a look! To Angela I say good luck, I have had a supportive e-mail from UNISON who clearly would like to work with the RCN on student issues. To Kris, hang on in there, if I win the RCN Presidency I will work with all of you and the ANS to get some change. If I lose, I will still work with you, because these issues bloody well matter. (Apologies to the RCN if this is too "political").
<ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 23:55:26 (BST)
Those pesky students...
I have to write that I am ashamed to be a member of De Montfort at the moment. Not through anything that the college has done but because of the apathy shown by my colleagues. I mentioned the fact that some of the student nurses I have been in contact with were trying to organise a sleep out to protest at the amount of money student nurses receive, and I bet you can guess what sort of response I received......exactly not alot! Talk about apathetic or should I say pathetic! It is exactly this sort of well I doesn't affect me so I don't give a damn attitude that pervades nursing.. Well I am slightly disheartened but still the fight goes on! Anyone got any news that will cheer me up?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 22:07:11 (BST)
Sleep Outs
I did mention a possibility of Leeds/Manchester but the idea is to have the sleep outs and then march to the parliaments/assemblies. ......And as far as dates go I have spoken to some one from unison who has organised these in the past and as getting near winter we have thought about march/april next year these things take alot of organising we need to get funds for buses to get people there and advertising an stuff. If we are going to have this it needs to be organised properly and well so have patience people and we will take them by storm....P.S if we wait till next spring it will be near the general election they (the government) will not like that.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 20:09:26 (BST)
I'm back!
Just been for a long weekend in London and feel that I have to correct all the criticism about the dome. It was excellent. I thoroughly enjoyed myself and would recommend it to anyone, so if you have been put off by all the bad publicity, then give it a chance! I guarantee you will have a great day! London eye was excellent also....... OK, enough of all that irrelevant nonsense - what is happening with these sleepouts? Will there be one for Lancashire? Angela, you only mentioned 5 sites? Also, when is the proposed date? Can't wait to take part!
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 17:26:26 (BST)
Hi Student Nurses
I'm a student nurse at South Bank University........like playing squash and chess.........and making friends....also sing a bit and act....Looking forward to Jim Carrey's .." Me, myself & I rene..
Allan Blewitt <afdblewitt@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 17:12:40 (BST)
RCN
are you saying the RCN was not interested in helping student nurses to increase their bursary? I am shocked!
Anne-Marie
- Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 12:55:37 (BST)
RCN ANS
Just a few lines to say Hi to the people I met at the conference. Anybody who couldn't make it, you didn't miss much! I have to say that it was a huge disappointment to me personally. I was under the impression the the RCN were there to represent me, obviously not. I have to agree with Kris, the "in my day" line was very much the theme of the weekend. Before, I thought that constructive talks with the RCN was the way to go in getting things changed for the better. Unfortunately I have been kidding myself! I also thought that student hardship had been around for a while, but it almost seemed as if the RCN had never heard "such rot" before. Anyway on a MUCH lighter note, Saturday night was f*#%&ng brilliant! Had a great time with all the games and thanks to everyone for taking part and making it such a hit.
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 22:08:00 (BST)
petrol
I have heard a rumour that the petrol blockade may be starting again, this time the actual drivers may facilitate it. So it may be a good idea to fill up. Please note it is only a rumour so my information could be wrong.
Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:28:33 (BST)
OOOOPPPPSS
Sorry I forgot I think we would need one in Belfast too.
Angela Smith
- Monday, September 18, 2000 at 22:35:58 (BST)
Sleep outs
I have just been to our first official student association meeting. I put the idea of the sleep outs to our association president and he has agreed that i can organise the Scottish protest from our uni in Aberdeen. So know I need other people to organise one for Cardiff one for London and one for possibly the Manchester/Leeds area. That would give us five individual sites. If anyone is interested I would love to hear from you. The other thing is a social work student is wondering if social work students would be welcome. I personally do not have a problem with them joining in. They are in the same predicament as us. One friend of mine has been sent all the way from Aberdeen to Hull for three months on placement. Did you Know that social work students do not get expenses? That means my friend has had to pay for himself to go on placement. The other story of social work students is one girl in Aberdeen has not had a placement for over four months because nobody will take her. Long and short of it is she might have to take a year out because she is behind everyone else in her year. I think the more people we get the better even if does mean linking with other students.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Monday, September 18, 2000 at 21:52:07 (BST)
sleep out pyjama rama party
I am so pleased with everyone's enthusiasm - well if its OK with everyone I would like to join forces with the lancashire group and do it in lancashire instead of Leeds. Whereabouts do you think would be a good place. What dates are people definately not available? should we do it on a Friday? I have a meeting with unison on thurs so I will see if I can get some funding from them. Meanwhile if everyone can get the word round about the sleepout to others at their universities it would be great. Even better if we could have about 4 sleepouts around the country at the same day.
Anne-Marie Osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Monday, September 18, 2000 at 16:01:07 (BST)
Big Brother (RCN style!)
Angela have just read your posting on the RCN website. I haven't replied as you already know that I think the idea is a brilliant one. I raised the issue at the ANS congress this weekend and received luke warm support from some of the 'senior members' of the council. However many of the students seemed up for it. As one of the RCN members pointed out to me that the junior doctors did something similar to highlight their concerns. As I have already said any publicity is good publicity. I have also posted a reply on the members issues page about the elections and the RCN's control freak attitude. Read it and e-mail me to tell me what you think. Anyway I'm off to stir up more revolutionary fervor and annoy some more RCN council members!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:52:25 (BST)
Hope you guys had a good time at conference. I have just posted a new topic on the RCN student forum called 'Taking action for a better future' it will probably be closed for being a bit revolutionary but if you are a member please go add some comments. Lets see how many feathers we can ruffle this time.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:12:15 (BST)
Just a quick hello and thank you to all of you that I met at the conference over the weekend. It was refreshing to get together with students who give a damn,in contrast with the apathy that we often face on our own campus at DMU Leicester. It seemed that throughout the weekend those that were speaking the most sense and trying to suggest the way forward were students which is a cause for optimism, especially if we can work together and turn words into positive action. Certainly the evasiveness and apparent lack of direction displayed during Hancocks half hour suggests that students need to take the lead in taking nursing forward and achieving the bursary increases,reducing student hardship,and generally improving our lot. Thanks a lot to the ANS and to all of you for making the conference an enjoyable weekend-not least shown by the monster hangover that I have been struggling with all day-great party last night!-cheers to all of you that joined in the games that we put together as well. We need to all stay in touch to ensure that the ideas and plans are put into action and we show how powerful we can be if we all pull together.
ian-julie@lestah.fsnet.co.uk
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:09:32 (BST)
Ouch!! My head hurts!
I have just got back from the RCN student Congress and it was fantastic! Can I just say a huge THANK YOU to all who attended and especially to the ANS who executive worked very hard (and partied even harder!) Lots of topics were discussed and the issue of student poverty was raised (again). The sainted Hancock was at her most ineffective as per usual and actually refused to answer any questions on what the RCN were actually going to do about it! The question was raised if she could justify the huge wage packet that she received and she said she could. Basically it was embarrassing with the RCN president just falling short of telling us (students) to grow up and stop being silly and how dare we even question her don't you know who I am? Etc we even got the famous 'in my day' in response from one of the question and answer panel. (If I hear that once more!!!) It just goes to show that despite the hard work and dedication from the ANS and also from all the students who attended, the hierarchy of the RCN does not seem to want to actually do anything about our situation. Due to the sainted Hancock's evasiveness (she seems to get more and more like a Tory politician in every outing) It seemed that the RCN are not exactly 'incontinent spaniels' but are more like 'incomprehensible mumblers!' Anyway thanks once again to all who attended perhaps we can maybe make a difference! (Hopelessly optimistic!)
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 19:44:24 (BST)
JB, glad you took a look. I can't fully accept your view. At the workplace level, for example, thousands of Rcn stewards and officers provide solid support to members with employment problems. The point is nurses themselves do not have to accept the "control freak" tendencies. The more nurses that use the Rcn site the more open the debate can become. P>S> I hope that Angela gets BIG support for her latest ideas.
Ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve>
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 11:28:15 (BST)
RCN Members' Interests
Ray, I followed your suggestion to look at members' interests on the RCN site. Every time discussions start to stray away from the RCN official lines, the RCN moderators close the topics down. Only the student forum is getting any traffic. Every other RCN member knows the RCN only too well, and simply doesn't bother to enter into dialogue. The only thing the RCN is any good for is the professional practice insurance that you get with your membership fee.
JB
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 09:03:45 (BST)
How sad!!!!
I can't believe I'm here and Its 1am
Angela Smith
- Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 01:03:28 (BST)
RCN members using this site may want to see the new page on the RCN site entitled MEMBERS INTERESTS. www.rcn.org.uk
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 20:48:26 (BST)
oh yes! I have had a few problems with the site in that the messages sometimes don't appear until the next day.
Lynette
- Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 20:30:36 (BST)
Heard the one about the Nurse, the Prime Minister and the teddy bear?
welcome to the new chat persons! I am near London happy to be involved with the London pyjama party. I like the Allan Milburn bit I think it would be so much fun, he got so upset when "his" NHS wasn't running smoothly during the fuel crisis. How do you think he'll feel if the NHS staff members turn on him. If we don't do it now I think in the long term it will affect attitudes within the profession.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 20:28:16 (BST)
Sleep outs
I think we should have sleep outs in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast all on the same night. The next day we could then march to the parliaments or assemblies of these places That would get masses of publicity. If I get enough signatures on my petition then we could hand in copies to each of them as well . P.S petiitons are available if you email me. Even filling just one page (which holds twenty signatures is better than none) We have already seen people power in action (i.e. the fuel blockades) lets use student nurse power to make a difference.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 15:56:26 (BST)
Monday's nearly here!
hi there everyone I just felt I had to post this message to you all, to let you know I start my three year training on Monday and now I have managed to get some fuel in my car I am looking forward to it!!!
Nichola <njyne@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 07:15:16 (BST)
Hi Allen, welcome to the site - hope it brings you all you wish for! What's happening about this sleepout? I agree with India that we should hold them at several parts of the country. That way more students can join and we will get more recognition and media coverage. Any ideas on where to hold the other sleep outs?
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Friday, September 15, 2000 at 19:28:23 (BST)
Sleep Out
Good idea to go down the 'direct action' route. Look what its done for this country over the oil refinery blockades. Would you be very high profile 'sleeping out' in Lancashire. Lancashire is indeed a beautiful place............I even trained there, but why don't you simultaneously hold them at different sights around the country and the more high profile the better. Why not sleep outside and block in the process, Downing Street. I'm sure 'just call me, Tony' couldn't fail to notice a large gathering of rather 'p*****' of student nurses camping on his doorstep.............does anyone know where Allan Milburn and (what the hell), Christine Hancock lives!! Give her something to ponder over while she eats her cornflakes. Glad to see we are back to some kind of normality on this sight......at long last. I have purposely not put my e-mail address as I don't want to suffer the same tirade as Kris, Roger et al received to their personal mail accounts. Good luck, would love to join you but somehow old battle scarred nurses of many years wouldn't be welcome, this is for you to take forward the new generation of Nurses and hopefully succeed where many have tried before and failed. Good luck, you know you can make a difference if you stick together and ride the storm.
India
- Friday, September 15, 2000 at 16:18:22 (BST)
Hi folks!
Hi student nurses, I'm male/30...South Bank University...like playing squash and chess...Trust this chat base camp is also for making social friends and not just about nursing... Bye.... Allan
Allan Blewitt <afdblewitt@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 15, 2000 at 15:56:22 (BST)
Technical difficulties maybe?............
Has anyone had any difficulties regarding accessing this site lately? I'm having difficulty posting messages and opening the browser to begin with!
Ange
- Friday, September 15, 2000 at 15:41:23 (BST)
Sleep out?
So, what's happening about this sleep out in Lancashire then? Anyone got a proposed date or venue? Is anyone organising this - if so do you need help? I am prepared to help in any way I can, just e-mail me! Let's get some results at last!
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:13:15 (BST)
Student Funding & Sleep Out
Roger's idea for funding is a good start but there are large numbers of mature students, many of them single parents, with families to support. Would they receive the same amount of funding? I have tried on numerous occasions to bring the plight of nursing students to someone's attention, I've had letters published in the local press, written to my MP, written to Tony Blair & The secretary for health, (the replies I received were very long winded but didn't answer the questions I asked, they more or less said were better off than other students. I even appeared on question time when the head of Unison and the shadow health secretary were on......Guess what......they couldn't use my question.... The sleep out in Lancashire is a great idea. COUNT ME IN.
Chris <chris@cduffy23.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 21:53:18 (BST)
Jelly ice cream and pillow fights..
I like the sleep out idea we get an opportunity to meet some of our like minded selves. I think the public need to be made aware ..we have to be careful that we aren't undershadowed by an opinion of "oh no not another protest...!!" Locally they have been closing wards due to Nursing staff shortage , loads of posts no Nurses! So that was the story I took up with them that student Nurses are dropping out left, right and centre because we are undervalued and overexerted, even ignored in fuel crisises. I think that there are some excellent ideas, I would urge everyone to join in. I like the idea Roger , but is it enough?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 21:13:09 (BST)
GET A LIFE.....
No, not an offensive message like so many from the one source on this site! Everyone has so many complicated e-mail addresses..... Why not get a NURSELIFE e-mail address? Visit www.nurselife.co.uk and click on the e-mail link. Call yourself whatever you want with the @nurselife.co.uk extension - as long as it is not offensive!! And as long as someone else hasn't got there first! This is the first release of this service, so most names are available NOW.... So what are you waiting for?
Andrew <andrew@nurselife.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 10:10:58 (BST)
I have laid down some challenges to the current Rcn President on my web site at http://come.to/ray-rowden Will she answer? Watch this space!
ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 00:29:53 (BST)
Sounds like a great idea, Kris. Let's hope it takes off!
Ange
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:54:16 (BST)
Duel funding what do you think?
What does anyone think of Rogers idea of student funding? If you do not know what his plan is then go to www.rcn.org.uk/cgi-bin/rcn/ultimate.cgi and see his breakdown or alternatively you can e-mail him at roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk. He plans for duel funding so that students have the opportunity to earn whilst working for their NHS trust whilst maintaining their student status and receiving a bursary. It does seem to me like the ultimate compromise...
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:19:52 (BST)
cont.......
I must stress that public transport to my placement is nonexistent even in normal conditions. My personal tutor says that it is our upmost responsibility as students to put those patients first and get there by whatever means are available. Hmmm, there aren't any.
Anita
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:18:05 (BST)
I've got fuel!!!!
I have just put £10 worth of fuel in my little Micra!! A local Shell garage is providing for medical staff, HCA's etc. and even we student nurses!! I was worried how I would complete my last 2 weeks of placement but still felt guilty about getting the fuel, having said that, there's was only enough fuel left for 90 cars at £10 each and I justified my allowance by telling myself that at least if the HCA's didn't manage to get any then I would be able to do their job if they couldn't make it to work. It was quite amusing seeing irate customers queuing behind me when they saw what I was doing and that's why I went in my uniform! I didn't fancy getting my windows smashed on the forecourt!!
Anita
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:15:13 (BST)
Sorry typo!
Sorry that should read LANCASHIRE! (These fingers, I have washed them once and now I cant do a thing with them!)
KrisNicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:01:42 (BST)
I am a union man! (is lancashire nice this time of year?)
Id be well up for a sleep out anywhere but if we cam get union support then the placement may not be such a problem. Once the unions are on side then the publicity will come with it. Still I hear Lancashire is nice this time of year....!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 19:59:59 (BST)
Any ideas?
I'm all for this 'sleep out', but Leeds is too far away. Would anyone be interested in this kind of thing in the Lancashire area?
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 19:47:26 (BST)
Back not good I am afraid
Piacere mio piccola fiore
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 18:04:31 (BST)
Golf
Message to Roger!! having followed the thread through, and boy did it take some time !!!! May I safely assume that the game of Golf is off????
Ma bozza richie
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 16:37:26 (BST)
The phone number for the house of commons is 0207 2193000. You can also get info on all MPs on the Parliament web site and from the library in DODS Parliamentary handbook. This gives good background on all MP's so you can check them out before you see them in surgery. What about the idea of a joint Rcn/UNISON lobby of parliament when the house returns after summer recess. A lobby in Parliament is a good way to raise the issues of students and I am sure a good number of MP's would support it. To RCN members, have a great and productive conference. I tried to join you but this was blocked!
ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:39:37 (BST)
Writing to MP
It is very easy to write to your MP If you do not know who he is, just phone the houses of commons and give them your postcode, they will be able to tell you. And then just write. You can phone your MPs dept. and find out when he has a local surgery - I am attending one this Friday in order to persuade my MP to sign the early day motion asking for student nurses to be salaried. Also ask them to write to Alan Milburn on this issue.
Anne-Marie
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:32:44 (BAST)
SLEEP OUT
I will finish my exam week next Friday and then will be able to devote some time into trying to organise the sleep out. I have already discussed it with my local UNISON branch and they are willing to support it in any way they can - refreshments, travel etc. I have considered doing the sleep out outside the dept. of health in Leeds. There is a pavement outside, and the law is that you are only allowed to take up a certain percentage of the pavement before you are a public nuisance or whatever (hope that makes sense). Please let me know if you are definately interested - there are a few people interested at my uni. I would hate ] to make arrangements and no one be interested. Obviously I will be able to discuss dates with you all at a later date. Thanks for you enthusiasm
Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:29:56 (BST)
Hello, Hello, Hello, What's all this then?
I have got to agree with that. Or friendly police constables seemed to be quite happy to beat protesters to the ground when the Chinese leader Ziang zu Min came to visit the Queen not so long back. Perhaps dibble is not so keen to tangle with 'grown ups' rather than the students and hippies who they have a habit of beating up! I am not calling for anything quite on the scale of national petrol blockades although as I said before a sleep out or some kind of protest like that seems a good idea.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:23:42 (BST)
Purged
I have managed to purge myself of the urge to write about anything as trite as changes to the way student nurses are paid....................................................HEY! Is anyone dressing up at the weekend, I've gained a bit of weight and........
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:20:48 (BST)
I don't have a problem with direct action if a situation calls for it. However I am more than a little surprised that we seem to be being held to ransom as a country by direct action from taxi drivers, lorry drivers and farmers, while the police stand around scratching various bits of their anatomy. Meanwhile when direct action is taken by those who are seen as less establishment than white middle class employed men, (i.e. on environmental protests or during the poll tax or anti-capitalist marches)and when the country is not being held to ransom, then it is my experience as a participant in some of the latter events that the police seem quite keen to practice their truncheon wielding techniques. BTW I will be asking in an RCN meeting I have tomorrow if we can issue some advice both for students and qualified nurses and posting it on the RCN website regarding the transport difficulties being experienced.
Linda B****y
- Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:08:32 (BST)
RE: fuel
well folks, if you're also working on the bank , get ready for your phone to go ballistic!!! I have a feeling we will be needed before the week is out!!
Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:37:42 (BST)
I know I keep going on but
I know, I keep going on about this all the time but it is beginning to take shape. Here is the idea. During the time in college or on holiday students would attract the present rate of pay. This would be paid in the form of a monthly retainer from the present source. I think that all nursing students should be paid this way, regardless of course. In other words, degree students should be funded the same way. However, during the time the student is at placement they should be paid by the Health authority as an employee. Initially, this would be at the recommended minimum wage, which I believe is £3.60 an hour. This would mean that for the course I am attending (the only one I can break down the hours for!) students could expect to 'earn' £1,755.00 for their ward-based efforts. This would work out to a combined wage of £5577.50 per annum, or £469.79 per month. I recommend that the 'wage' element is increased each year by an increment of £0.25 per hour. I have not had a chance to break down the second year details because of the shift from CFP to Branch. I do have the final year figures, based on a further increment of £0.25 per hour being paid to the students. This would break down for my course to be £6735.00 per annum or £561.25 per month. That is as a flat rate though I would recommend that the final year students attract enhancements. This I believe would reduce the pressure on students who are under extreme pressure and also face the added burden of what I have previously described as 'exploitation'. I have described the reasons often enough on this site. The benefits would employee status or at least joint status as enjoyed by sandwich course students in their year out. Better wages and conditions, a potential increase in earnings for those working the worst shifts. An financial appreciation for the skill achieved that is commensurate with the increase in pressure and responsibility.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:12:09 (BST)
Direct Action works
The inference that we can draw from the fuel protests are that direct action works! If only to bring publicity. I would definately be up for some kind of direct action. A sleep out has been mentioned so if anyone else is interested e mail me. Would we be able to get RCN support for something like this?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:36:49 (BST)
Fuel
We are on to fuel. This will not be popular, but on this occasion Blair et al might have a point. For two reasons hi duty on fuel is correct. 1. Lowering polluting emissions. 2. We do have a lower rate of direct tax and indirect tax, e.g., fuel duty pays for our NHS, education, public infrastructure. On one hand part of me is pleased to see that direct action is still possible and can challenge the smugness of politicos, on the other, I have no problem in increased public spending on things like the NHS. What lessons could be drawn for nursing though in the campaign on fuel? Any thoughts or ideas on that one? PS, I do drive a gas guzzling car!
ray rowden <ray'rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:16:26 (BST)
I have stayed off this page for a number of days in the hope that some kind of normality would prevail. I am glad to see that the debate has changed. Hurrrah the good honest folk have prevailed. Anyway thanks to those who have given me names for job sites(I have n't had a look yet but I will.) The situation in Aberdeen with the fuel crisis is desperate. The ward I am on had to cancel theatre lists because there was not enough of us on to post op care, not only that but most of the theatre staff and doctors were stuck in traffic. Some of them did not get in till lunchtime I don't know how some of the students have coped with traveling because a lot of them come from rural areas not only that we have just heard tonight that the bus services are about to be reduced I think our school is of the same opinion that we should just make alternative arrangements. But if you rely on public transport what are you supposed to do. I do however agree with why they are doing it. We get ripped off left, right and centre Bye for now Angela
Angela smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:14:28 (BST)
I'm here
Im here ready and willing to debate the current issues of the day!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:45:51 (BST)
Where is everyone
is there anybody there?
Angela smith
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:43:39 (BST)
Support
I'm not saying that the people who are blockading the fuel terminals are wrong, far from it. We do have one thing in common, in that nobody seems to listen to anything that we say or appreciate the hardships that we suffer when you don't get paid enough to survive on. They, as we have, have been pushed to one side as a minor irritance. This government promised the situation would be improved, it was obviously political clap trap intended to make people believe that they were the party to vote for. I wonder if there is any political power that might have the interests of nursing at heart?
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:53:49 (BST)
No support.
Dear concerned, I have asked one of my tutors this morning about the problems that some students may have with the shortage of fuel that is occurring across the country. She went off to confer with the "Head of School of Nursing and Midwifery" who promptly told her that students had to find others ways of getting to placement! How much help is that? Some students have to travel 30 miles each way for their placement. What are they supposed to do? Camp in a field close by just so they can get there on time? What a farce! Another case of "it's OK, they're only students".
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:44:50 (BST)
No Fuel
AAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How am I going to get to my placement when I finally run out of fuel!!!!!! If we have days off we get penalised, my personal tutor didn't get back to me on this today..... So I have half a tank of petrol and that's it, by the weekend there will be none!!
Concerned
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:02:37 (BST)
Rambling on again...
The course is divided into two elements comprising 2300 hours each, and seemingly necessitating a return to primary school with the use of registers for everything. The point that has been raised by Kris Nicol on the RCN website is one that attracts great merit. The point is made that ODP's are trained in house and seem to suffer none of the problems that student nurses do. In fact, they seem to revel in their employee status and the fact that they are quickly incorporated into the culture that pervades their departments. They are also offered the opportunity to 'bank' early on into their training, as they are already employees. As the training progresses the pay is incremental, as presumably the ODP trainees are able to contribute more. My earlier arguments considering the idea of joint funding seem to have been largely ignored, which as the father of such plans is either a woundingly honest appraisal of my incoherent babbling, or just that things around here have been off topic. I should like to apologise to anyone who I have offended during this somewhat bitter on screen 'argument'. I just don't take kindly to certain things, perhaps in the remaining days before conference we could all zoom in on the problems that beset us all and I could search for the furthest flung members of Teddy Bear army.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:35:52 (BST)
Lets now take action!
If you have all seen the publicity surrounding the direct action taken by the people campaigning for cheaper fuel prices. Direct action does have a benefit even if it is just to highlight an area that needs the publicity. A sleep out sounds like a good idea but does anyone have any ideas on what else we could do? And how do i go about writing to my MP? Lynette dont worry if we all stand together there is not much anyone can do to harm us! Now this is unity at work! Oh and just a quick one if anyone out there who is reading this site and is worried about contributing DONT WORRY! please please please contribute as we need to hear from any students who have something to say. If you have any ideas on the way in which nurse training should be funded, or even if you just want to have a whinge about college or placement then just post them up here. We need to hear from all students no matter where you are from or what you beleive. VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE!
Kristian Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:17:39 (BST)
Ann-Marie you are a star!
Cracking idea! The sooner the better with one on the weather but it has the makings of a great media catching event!
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:05:29 (BST)
Action
Is anyone interested in a bit of a publicity stunt - perhaps a sleep out, these have generated a lot of publicity and support in london and down south. There is a possibility that we can get our unions to support us. I am thinking about doing this in the northern region. What do you think?
Anne-Marie <h9150376>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 12:56:55 (BST)
WELL THERE YOU HAVE IT!
Completely unbelievable, thanks for the support and responses from you all! I was physically sick after I had the email from Suren. I have been threatened to be killed by the mother of my step daughter and that did not upset me as much as being accused of being a racist. I think that Suren would be dangerous as a representitive and I fear the reputation of the Nursing profession.On a lighter note I have successfully communicated with my MP who is asking Lord Hunt how he expects Student Nurses to continue their education. I have also managed to get a story running through my local press .....Next step Nationals! hurray! Roger I will support you in anyway for anything.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 11:21:54 (BST)
Nipper, thanks for the plug! I hope I can win the election and that I can do something to keep these issues on the agenda, but even if I do not, this campaign has taught me a lot more about the real experience of students and I will stick with it in any way I can. I am interested in learning more about views on what a "decent bursary" might look like and its components. Any views would be welcomed either here or by email. If we are to fight the status quo it might be neat, in media terms at least, to have a sense of what we think a bursary should be worth, given that nursing students have to work and do not get the full leave benefits of others.
ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 00:40:54 (BST)
educational ramblings....
The course needs to be modularised, so that in respect to the various branches, the final year could contain some genuine elements of choice for the students. I am an adult nursing student but upon qualification I would like to work in medicine and not surgery. With a shorter CFP, surely there should be room. People speak of foreign electives, that would be fantastic but the only examples I am aware of are for the degree students. No criticism intended. Why not inter-hospital placements, which do not occur here in the midlands, unless there are special circumstances? Surely a broader range of experiences would produce a better experienced and hopefully more balanced professional upon completion? The government is pushing for common training for healthcare professionals, as is the RCP. This would also free up semester time as there would be more focus. The present systems that force student nurses to wait months for results before facing the possibility of re-sitting papers months after moving out of an area. The problem is that there is this feeling that student nurses are somehow part of the student body, when in fact they seem distinct. We do not share the same holidays the same facilities often or similar status. We seem neither fish nor fowl. If we have to continue in abject poverty under the aegis of student status, should we not be at least allowed to share the same structure of course as students, with variations and elective elements? What about languages? A large number of my patients are from the Indian sub-continent and we are constantly lectured on the importance of communication, yet no one has thought of making provision in the course for any such languages. This seems to be the problem that no matter if the criticism is constructive or destructive, that it occurs seems to serve to illustrate the shortfall of not just nursing and nurse training; but of those who are purportedly fighting for nursing. It is very hard to suggest that all these problems exist without at the same time suggesting someone somewhere has been remiss. Then you get into this defensive posturing and the sort of "we are doing all we can" situation. The "it is up to you" statement follows this, which is probably true. However, when you think that one of the problems, we as a group of friends identified when discussing nursing, is a lack of leadership by the organisations representing nursing; it is hard to see how. Without active leadership, reaching out to people and becoming an integral part of the student nurse culture it is going to be hard.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:49:00 (BST)
Turning talk into Action (well more talk at least!)
I agree with Roger, many of the students i have talked to feel let down by the organisations that represent them. They belive ( as do i!) that despite the constant promise of action and the constant issuing of slogans (whats this years RCN one? Lets turn talk into action?)there has been a lot of talking and not alot of action. Very rarely do we see nursing leaders in the media stating our case. Not once have i in three years seen a Nursing representative standing up and discussing just what a raw deal student nurses recieve. (come to think of it i haven't seen anyone standing up and discussing about how poorly all Nurses are treated) This says alot about the state of Nursing leadership. Where is the figurehead behind whom Nursing can unite and then move onwards? I can say from my own personal experience that no one who is not from a nursing background can name a nurse leader. No one knows who Christine Hancock is yet many people know who Rodney Bickerstaff is or remember Arthur Scargill. For gods sake most people i know can name at least one famous doctor! (perhaps with a change of leader the RCN may actually increase its public profile! go on you know you want to vote for Ray!!!) Another reason why nursing students feel so dissalousioned (sorry for the spelling but it is late at night!) is that they are isolated. Politically and physically. At my university we didnt untill recently even have a NUS rep at our campus. Nursing is made out to be unitentionally perhaps, the poor cousin of 'real' university courses. We are also distanced from our qualified colleagues with many of them developing 'staff Nurseitis'. This is where the individual forgets the moment they qualify what it was like to be a student! (This is said in half jest and is not an attack on any one individual!) Until Nursing students are reconciled with there qualified colleagues and some sort of mutual respect is achieved then i believe that nothing will really change. (PS i dont believe that Roger really was referring to Suren as a female anatomy. I think that it was a statement of how he(ROGER)was made to feel by someone!)
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:44:47 (BST)
Nelson-like, it should have said Nelson-like
fingers again
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:16:50 (BST)
Ideas pushed around
A few of us have been talking about the approaching conference and discusses some of the perceived problems that exist. Some of the areas that have been identified have been the disparity that exists between courses. Further to this is the variations in the structure of individual courses. The recent ENB led assessment of courses seems to have failed to identify any of the shortcomings of the sites. The question of funding returns continually, and is at the heart of a lot of the ill feeling. The perception that as students we have to find facts about our future, rather than have the various parties concerned inform us as a group. The seemingly small details that act as universal blocks to people attempting to enter nursing. Creche fees, prescriptions, rent (especially as so many health authorities are selling up), uniform allowance, poor facilities and ever increasing class sizes. The question of treatment on the wards seems to be a moot one, with a lot of differing opinions being expressed here. The group here in the midlands has felt that a lot of the treatment has been poor and the justification behind it weak. All around we can see the evidence of a profession in crises, with the Government adopting what amount to panic policies to fill the shortfall. Some of the criticism levelled at the respective organisations is felt to be justified. The question is again, how has this happened and what could the concerned parties have done to stop it. This is not for the purpose of revisionism but that it might be stopped from occurring in the future. Against this is the continual pressure of very real poverty, which when you think that Christine Hancock earns £229.97 per day, well it might make the meekest feel like criticising. People are debating issues and putting forward ideas, but what some of us are less than happy about is that the Nelosn-like lack of vision on behalf of those who have identified themselves as being part of the hierarchy. Many of us feel that the RCN/ANS have been less than active in communicating to the student body and also remiss in attemting to galvanise the student body into action. A quick glance at the annual accounts reveals more than chump change in the coffers yet the ability of the RCN to get out amongst the student population seems limited.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:14:04 (BST)
Hello to you too
Suren, Whilst I agree with your discontent regarding rogers 'definition' of you, my views remain the same. Quite frankly, I am tiring of having to reply to you so I will make this the last one. Please don't lecture me about attacking you when I have never met you, you have never met people on this page yet continue to attack them. I would like to suggest that you take your own advice as this presents you as being hypocritical! Please think about this before the next time you hit 'send'.
Ange
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:51:50 (BST)
Been away
I have just returned from a conference in Malta, 350 doctors from across the med, only 3 nurses! My host, a brilliant colleague who is involved in the Maltese nursing association has fought like stink for recognition for nursing in their health care system. It was good to be there and see her success. I have come back here to see what had been going on! Angela started a crucial debate a few weeks ago here and on the Rcn site about the position of students and the real hardships they face. We really do need some focus. A petition is on the move and we have visitors on this site from UNISON and the RCN. The ANS conference is coming up and will be a real opportunity to make that focus work for students. The media will be there, as will some key figures from the Rcn. I hate to sound like MATRON, but keep the anger for the real enemies of progress for students, i.e., a rotten system, and don't dissipate it on battles with each other. If the ANS can get a clear position and share it with UNISON colleagues, we might be on to something that can galvanise the energy of the student community. What would help on this site is some ideas around the concept of salary v bursary? The needs of students viz accomodation and related costs. Any ideas as to how we might improve the audit of the quality of clinical placements? Any ideas about how we could build alliances with the many decent lecturers out there, who are also abused by increased numbers and limited resources? Any ideas about how the travel costs for students could be helped? Lets run with ideas, we can sort personalities over a drink at Rcn Congress and elsewhere.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:42:01 (BST)
REPLY
Kris I agree that nursing is in crisis at the present time, and it will only get worse unless we do something. If you have poor representation in your area you can do something to change it. When I first started at my university we had no effective representation. We all joined the RCN for protection yet for a university with over 1500 pre registration students we had only two stewards. We found out how to become stewards and attended the training programmes, we now have 8, 4 of us attended RCN congress this year and we have more hopes for next year. Four of us also attend the LONDON FORUM FOR STUDENT NURSES which has been facilitated by the ANS but is run by the members. I feel that if you are not properly represented then you can take control and make a difference. If you wish to find out more please contact me. I feel very passionately about the problems that student nurses face and from the points I have observed that most of the students do as well. I expect that there are issues we all will disagree on but that is the key point of debate and is a way of moving forward. So why not try to work with the ANS and other Representative bodies, I feel that you will be suprised by the cross section of ideas that we debate. I have no desire to see any student nurse condemed or attacked. I wish to facilitate the discussion and welcome comments, I have no agenda or political retoric just a desire for a fair deal for student nurses as do most of my colleagues in the RCN/ANS. I state that my postings are my own opinion because I have not discussed them with the members that I represent. So to all the Students that write so passionately I suggest that you get involved work together and fight for a just deal for all student nurses. Work with the bodies that represent you and lobby to get your voice heard. PS GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU IN THE FUTURE WITH YOUR TRAINING
Michael Conlon <Michael.Conlon1@virgin.net>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 20:43:40 (BST)
REPLY
Kris I agree that nursing is in crisis at the present time, and it will only get worse unless we do something. If you have poor representation in your area you can do something to change it. When I first started at my university we had no effective representation. We all joined the RCN for protection yet for a university with over 1500 pre registration students we had only two stewards. We found out how to become stewards and attende
Michael Conlon <Michael.Conlon1@virgin.net>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 20:43:40 (BST)
Uh oh were in trouble...
Micheal, you are right it does sound like student nursing utopia. However if we are represented properly and we are able to put our point across effectively and if and i say if we can all be a little more tolerant of differences and stop taking offence at every little statement (myself included!) then we have a chance of really making a difference for all those nurses yet to study.*********************** Interesting article in Todays Times. It states that recent research has highlighted the fact that'one fith of all Nurses are considering quitting the profession'. They cite poor pay and conditions as the main reasons for wanting to leave. Sounds scary huh! The NHS is now 17,000 nurses short. This will have a direct effect on the way in which students are treated. Less staff= Less Mentors= More abuse of students as another pair of hands.Well im worried!!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:55:22 (BST)
Really
As a third year diploma student I am in despair at the fact that none of the RCN/ANS committee or shop stewards who have written in have had the fortitude to criticise 'their' colleague. I started out calling for unity on this site and now I am quite happy to get stuck in as I am about to be 'represented' by someone who cannot even speak my language and whose resulting lack of comprehension has resulted in this debacle. Obviously the fact that Suren is from a different culture has reduced everyone from the RCN/ANS side of things, to silence. The fear of the Political Correctness Police must have you quaking, meanwhile the soon to be representative can level accusations where he wnats unopposed by authority. Yeah, unity, but who is united and what for? This is becoming like the 'emperor's new clothes', so if you have trouble seeing that democracy has already been taken for a ride, and is about to get slaughtered; then the only unity you must be concerned with is the unity of those who wish not to see what is obvious.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:38:51 (BST)
DISBELIEF & DESPAIR
I have just read over the comments on this page and am in a state of disbelief. I feel as a third year diploma student nurse and an RCN steward that the only thing that will defeat us is by fighting amongst ourselves. I appeal to all of my colleagues to address the issues which affect us all. 1. Money - We need a fair bursary. 2. Housing - cheap affordable and liveable near placements and university. 3. Parity of education - At congress this year a student had completed 39 summnative assignments and not one drug round (this student is now qualified. As opposed to some of my peers who have only completed 12-14. 4. Placements - Well facillitated with enthusiastic mentors and good staffing levels. Yes, before everyone rushes to their keyboards, I know this is a view of nursing student utopia, but I feel we need to start somewhere and have an aim that is worthwhile. I suggest those of you who are in the RCN work with the ANS executive and your local activists to lobby for change. Those of you who are in UNISON do the same and those of you who have not joined a representative body please do so. We can work apart and fail or work together to make progressive change to improve the conditions for those who will follow us.
Michael Conlon <Michael.Conlon1@virgin.net>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:10:01 (BST)
More websites for Angela
For jobs in the NHS try,www.nhsjobs.com/meta/copyright.htm. Its allright but is only about jobs in the health service. Good luck
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 18:49:44 (BST)
wat r u sayin?
READ IT, READ THE WORDS, READ THE EIGHTH WORD, (8), READ IT AND FOR JUST ONCE TRY AND UNDERSTAND, GO ON, FEEL FREE, WORK IT OUT, THE WORD IS ME, IN ENGLISH THAT REFERS TO SELF Goodbye and godbless Cheers, 500 words describing me in what in common parlance would be a four letter word referring to a woman's reproductive organs. If you have found support for your views on the ward in London, your god better be at close hand! He will be needed to save nursing from the likes of you Roger Obermaier - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:14:02 (BST) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 18:11:50 (BST)
Hello Ange
I am surprised that you actually support all that Roger and his chums has written. The uncalled for remarks and he even compared me to the reproductive organs of a women. Are u telling me that is acceptable. Ange I do not know what is your problem but you are entitled to your opinions and it is only your opinions. I am saddened that for a person whom you have never met and do not know u have such hatred. What have you achieved by attacking me in the manner you have? Do you really think that you are a better human being than me? What makes you so special that you constantly attack me and be so offensive? My intentions has always been sincere and always asked for unity. It is posting like yours and some of my responses which I feel ashamed that I allowed people like you to take over my good nature and sense. I apologise to all Nursing Students for what meant to be a logical and sensible debate has now turned out to be Suren bashing. Ange take a good look at all the postings and be honest with yourself that you and your friends are being honest here. I merely responded to you and your chums rudeness to me.
Suren Suku
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:42:06 (BST)
To Angela Smith:
Angela, jobsin.co.uk have got a great employment section for nurses, so has nursing-job-advertiser.com, good luck with your job search.......
js
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:04:21 (BST)
PETITIONS
I do not know how many student nurses are aware, but UNISON has a petition being circulated. The petition asks for a wage instead of a bursary, i realise many people fought for supernumary status and the end to a wage, but i think it is evident that this approach is not effective. The petition does not wish to see an end to supernumary status, but asks for a fair wage for student nurses. If anyone would like a copy please do not hesitate to contact me. UNISON are planning to present these to No.10 sometime this month. When i know any more details i will let you know.
Anne-Marie Osborne <h91503756@hud.ac.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 14:11:07 (BST)
Lets return to normal.!!!
So what is anyones opinion on the future of nurse funding? Will we have to in the end return to employee status (not nessecarily a bad idea). Or will the RCN in all its guises manage to secure future students a better bursary? I would be interested in hearing the views of anyone who has an opinion on the subject.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 10:52:42 (BST)
PERSONAL ATTACKS!!
I have been reading all the message postings for the last week. Firstly I would like to say that it is encouraging to see so many opinions and views on a wide range of matters.

I however have to step in at this point and ask anyone posting messages including personal attacks and negative comments to refrain from doing so.

This message board offers the opportunity to discuss whatever issues you want, and with it not being moderated before messages are posted hopefully encourages people to express their views fully on "Nursing". We do not want to be forced into having to moderate it, as that situation will surely take the edge off positive discussion.

Some recent postings have clearly detracted from "nursing issues" and would ask all involved not to hijack these pages for personal means. We should be striving to attract people to join in the discussion, and not give the feeling they do not want to participate.

Thank you.

BRUTISH NURSING WEBMASTER <webmaster@brutish-nursing.com>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 10:31:22 (BST)
Unbelievable........
Suren, your attitude gets worse each time you write. Being in a position of some authority you should be utterly ashamed of yourself. And as if you couldn't stoop any lower you use your culture as an excuse for people arguing with you. THE REASON PEOPLE ARGUE IS BECAUSE YOU WRITE COMPLETE NONSENSE. How dare you try to claim that we are racist. Whether you are black, blue, pink or rainbow coloured, the issue we have with you is your poor, arrogant unthoughtful attitude. How did someone of your maturity ever be elected for student rep. I am amazed. I would be most happy if I never saw your postings in here again - Suren - you are the one who needs to reflect upon what you have written so how about taking some of your own advice. JUST GROW UP PLEASE!
Ange
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:25:32 (BST)
Sad
I just feel all this bickering is really sad. There is no need for personal attacks. Everyone has the right to their opinion and lively debate is a wonderful thing. The problem seems to be when people read more into things than they should. I have read all the postings that Suren suggested and I'm afraid I cannot find anything wrong with what has been posted. Like the last message, I came to this site to get help, advice and read the views of other colleagues, because that's what we are, we are all colleagues. Regardless of race, religion or colour. I haven't even started my training yet and I feel quite anxious if the messages on here are anything to go by. What are my mentors on the ward going to have me do? Skivvy instead of learn? I am all for joining the fight for trying to increase our bursary and getting better conditions for our placements but is there really any need for all this bickering?
Heather <leheluja@aol.com>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:16:00 (BST)
I don't believe it..
Well this surely has taken everyone to a new level. As a first year student nurse I came to this site for guidance and am sorely disillusioned..I'm sure many others feel the same! I shall not be posting any longer as this does not feel to be a productive exchange, and wholeheartedly agree with Ange that somewhere along the line the plot got somewhat lost. Good luck to all nursing students with their courses..lets hope that we in the future can make a difference by joining together !

- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 08:13:49 (BST)
Sigh!
Are we ever going to get over this? :-(
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 06:38:32 (BST)
Get a life roger
Roger you just displayed your ignorance and what a loser you are. Nursing will be better of without people like u and Kris. What you two are doing here is stirring up hatred. From what I see here that the both of you are the most vocal. I might not be British but at least I have my dignity but that says much of a person who is as vulgar as you....have you not got the guts to use the exact words as u intended it to be...as I said before....it is easy to sit behind a computer and type away in the comfort of your house but it takes a real person to say things like that face to face....Roger and Kris the both of need saving from each other.....yes the people in London will support me because they know me in real life rather from a computer....at least I know I am not a coward like you to.....it shows your ignorance and further more the true colours of each of you....you may go ahead and write as many vile rhetoric's about me here on this website......but you know what you two are showing the rest of the people who you really are.....as for you Kris I never have seen a two faced person in life like you....one hand you are offering reconciliation and the other you have a knife ready to stab me in the back.....wow that is might impressive......well if nursing has to survive it rather be in the hands of the people like myself and many other foreigners which we are very much bailing out the crisis than have you two in charge. You would kill nursing in two minutes since you take over......so good bye and good luck this is my last posting here....wow I have never seen a bunch of ignoramus people in my life than you two.....IGNORANCE IS LIKE A DELICATE FRUIT, TOUCH IT AND THE BLOOM IS GONE..
Suren Suku
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 05:22:09 (BST)
Goodbye and godbless
Cheers, 500 words describing me in what in common parlance would be a four letter word referring to a woman's reproductive organs. If you have found support for your views on the ward in London, your god better be at close hand! He will be needed to save nursing from the likes of you
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:14:02 (BST)
Missing the point
Suren, I think that you have missed the point of this site. It allows for the discussion of matters with which you may not necessarily agree. The whole point of various stages of the argument thus far have been that students are getting a bad deal. Yes I believe that the RCN and the ANS has failed student nurses. Yes I believe that Christine Hancock is innefectual (in the same way I regard Tony Blair and Alan Milburn are useless) I do not seek to attack them personally. I seek to state my opinion that none of them are doing there job effectively. I believe that the RCN is failing me because I do not have enough money to live on and despite constant promises of action I personally have yet to see anything. I repeat that no one on this site has attacked anyone in a personal way. I still cannot see where I or Roger have a problem with foreigners. Doesn't Roger state that he respects those from other cultures and has even spent time among them? Suren this last posting does despite all of my efforts to the contrary seem to be the posting of someone with a problem. Now whether this problem is of your own making or of anyone else's only you can answer. But firing accusations at people who don't agree with you is not the way to do it. I hoped that my last posting may of been seen as a conciliatory gesture but it seems that you don't want to compromise and that you only seek to villify..... I am sorry at this situation. To everyone else lets try and return to the original argument. We have all agreed that Student Funding is inadequate the next question is what can we do about it? I hope that this puts an end to all the vitriol...
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:11:18 (BST)
wow roger
You always seem to miss the point. I have shown some staff nurses and HCAs all the posting i.e. 53 pages of it and they have read them and they feel that you are the one with the problem here. You have a complexity about foreigners. U see Roger not matter what you say or do you will not undermine the hardwork the ACN and ANS has done for Nursing Students. You would not turn a good debate into your own little mind games. You should re-read all your posting and then look at it as Tom and not Roger and then when u have understood what you have written then you would realise how offensive and how demeaning u have been. U have made retractions of statements and u have offended many other people on the website as well. So roger u can go on and on attacking me and my honour....but before u do that take a good look in the mirror and see who is standing in front of it....I just that ... I saw me a decent and an honest person....I saw a person who believes in what he stands for....you started this whole attack and you initially made some very personal attacks on me.....so go back and reflect...and also go to the very beginning and see how many other people you have offended with your tirades.....I have no problems about your postings and you.....I have the problem when you attack people because they do not fit your way of thinking.....you accused me of a lot of things and you have questioned my intergrity.....well are u a really honourable person....if u was u would not behave in the manner u have.....now I can see what a fool I was to respond to your tirade and drop myself into a debate with a person who is so self righteous. U got to understand with all your quotations and trying to impress has no relevance to the fight for a fair bursary. By attacking Christine Hancock and the RCN does not make u a better person. If u feel so strongly about her why don't you write to her and tell her exactly how you feel rather than attack her without giving her a chance to defend herself....so take that look in the mirror and see who you see there......this is my last posting in regards to you and your chums and I would prefer you not to contact me nor respond to any future meassages I put on this website which is information for the benefit for students.....please leave me alone and live your life and I will live mine.....I beg of u not to reply to this and just let it be.......good bye and god bless you
Suren Suku
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:54:05 (BST)
TRUCE!!!
Suren, please, please stop this. This situation must end now. You cannot just go around throwing accusations wildly at people. I have read all of the postings that you have suggested and I cannot see any of the things that you say are there. There is no hidden agenda, there are no conspiracies of people trying to oust you from your position. No one wants your job, in fact as far as I can discern people have been quite positive towards you up until you started accusing them of things that I believe are not there. Most of this situation has arisen because you believe that you are being attacked on a personal level for whatever reason. That is not true. People disagree with the position you take and the viewpoints you state AND NOT WITH YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL. As one of those who you have inferred of racism ( I said inferred and not accused) I feel very strongly that you may be missing the point of the postings. Until you started reacting strongly to others no one had posted anything that was in any way critical of you as a person. I wish to apologise for anything that YOU may have taken in the wrong way. I cannot however be held responsible for your OWN UNIQUE interpretation of the postings of others. I ask once again that some sort of truce is agreed so that the issue can turn away from petty squabbles and as Roger and others have tried to do return to the matters at hand. I thank you for your consideration. Kris Nicol
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:18:55 (BST)
Suren
Clearly you feel that you have been slighted. It is also evident that you feel the victim in this. Most of the postings on this site prior to your identifying another agenda were concerned with student nursing. I have posted two pieces today concerning a proposed solution to the problem of funding. I am not sure quite what it is that you feel you can achieve by maintaining this continual tirade. It would seem that the person whose position it is to help others, is in fact in need of help himself. There is nothing more that I wish to say to you. You pose questions and when you get the answers you ignore them. My only concern is for the safety of those who oppose your opinions. One other thought, Britain is a democracy, the last time I was at Heathrow, the customs people were stopping people on the way in. If you so profoundly hate the way we fascists run this totalitarian state, perhaps a return to your native land would be the salve for what ails you?
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:12:47 (BST)
You go away for a weekend and all hell breaks loose! Will everyone stop shouting, it is very difficult to read. Roger your last post had some interesting ideas in it, coupled with some of the other suggestions here about how student teachers are being treated and some sort of restoration to benefits it would certainly help. The RCN is in the process of putting together its annual evidence to the Pay Review Body, which although it does not really have a remit for bursaries it might be worth including something on anyway. I will come back and read it tomorrow when I have not got so much vodka on board, and if I can cut and paste it will forward it to the appropriate person.
Linda B****y
- Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:06:12 (BST)
wow
Hey I will be around and I will achieve what I am set out to do. If you guys feel this strongly why did any of you not stand for elections and then maybe we could have real debates and real policy discussion. Rather than picking and choosing what you guys are going to attack me on. Well if nursing is going to survive....I do not see it surviving in your hands, i.e.. Roger and his chums. Take a good look are your postings and read them carefully. Everything you guys accuse me of...is a true reflection of your personalities. If you people are so mature and intelligent why not lets meet around a table in a boardroom and discuss these issues. Instead of continuously attacking me and when I respond you do not like it. You guys have insulted me..used vile and vulgar terms on me. If you guys are so decent and upstanding citizens you would not print such nonsense and hide behind this tirade. Thus far none of you people have addressed what I have been asking you all to address. Why are you all not wanting to discuss the real issues here...Ange and company u can say what you want to say u can have your opinions which u are entitled to. This does not mean the entire population of the nursing students are going to believe you. By Ange, Roger, Heather, just to name a few really do believe they can take nursing student forward then come forward and join the ANS executive. Come forward and fill in the positions that are available. Make your voice heard. I have all the postings you have made and there are lot of nastiness and offensive remarks made by yourselves and lots of retractions of your statements....so if you people want to really debate student issues or really want to say all this to my face I am willing to meet all of you and show me where I am wrong. Show me what have I done to deserve this abuse from you all. It is easy to sit behind a computer and type away. It is easy to attack people and try to demean them. It is easy to attack people without substance..If you all really believe that what you have written was not offensive and not racist then show me where I went wrong and I will write an apology to you all unreservedly......but before I go I would like Roger and his friends to go to the following postings and read what they have written: 01. wow what a response; 10/09 @ 01h31 posted....02. Lynette; posted 09/09 @ 14h51....03. Roger; 08/09 @ 22h46...04. Ange; 07/09 @ 22h48....05. HCA attitudes to student nurses; 07/09 @ 01h27....06. obviously dim; 05/09 @ 19h31...07. what; 04/09 @ 10h54 this is just a few you all should reread and then reflect on what you have written....yes you are correct in saying that you have a democratic right to voice your opinions in any form or manner. But when you incite xenophobia and hatred....you lose that right....well you all are preaching democracy...have you all allowed me my democratic right.....have you all actually given my postings a fair reading and understanding.....all along I have been asking for unity.....well go ahead and run your anti Suren campaign and hey if I get kicked out no probs.....at least you have achieved your goal.....then you must ask your selves this question...AM I A HUMAN BEING? WHAT HAEV WE ACHIEVED HERE? HAEV WE REALLY ACHIEVED ANYTHING BUT JUST MADE ANOTHER PERSON'S LIFE A MISERY BECAUSE WE COULD NOT ANSWER HIM BACK IN A GOOD HUMANE MANNER? WELL ROGER AND CHUMS, I WILL NOT RESIGN MY POST AND LET ME TELL YOU THIS I WOULD FIGHT YOU ALL ..... ALL THE WAY THROUGH ..... I HAVE DONE NOTHING TO DESERVE THIS ABUSE FROM YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS.....JUST GO BACK AND REFLECT ON WHAT YOU ALL HAVE WRITTEN....JUST LOOK AT IT VERY DEEPLY....DOES THIS MAKE YOU ALL BETTER THAN ME......WELL IF YOU ALL HAVE AN OUNCE OF CONSCIENCE AND COMMON DECENY AND BEFORE YOU PEN YOUR NEXT POISON MESSAGE THINK, JUST THINK....WOULD YOUR PARENTS BE PROUD OF YOU ALL IN THE MANNER YOU HAVE ATTACKED ME.....
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:51:36 (BST)
Email sent to me.
Following the message that I posted yesterday, I received an email from Suren - the content of which I find quite disturbing. An extract - "hey I do have a life.....it show how ignorant you are.....well birds of a feather always flock together........it amazes me how you all stick together and protect each other on the webpages....go back and read the postings properly and if u do not see the bigotry and racism then u are naive and ignorant....or u choose to deny it is true. You choose to hide behind pathetic outbursts like you just made.....u can make me the butt of your pub jokes but are you any better than me....at least I know I am not perfect......but are you....." I would just like to respond in two ways - firstly, Suren said that he would no longer visit this site to see the lively and extremely interesting (my view not his!) debate that is going on. Secondly, is this the type of person that we, as student nurses, want to represent us? I rest my case.
Heather <Leheluja@aol.com>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 19:55:31 (BST)
Payment partnership prevents poverty
Further to the idea of earlier, an expansion of the idea. The premise would be that throughout the training period, the time spent by the student in non-clinical settings would attract financial support from the present source, higher education in the form of LHA's or wherever the bursary or grant arrives from. This would be paid either at the start of the semester (I am assuming that is how the degree students are paid what little they get) or split over the year as the diploma students are paid. A tally of the hours to be worked in each semester would allow the appropriate weighting to be applied. By this I mean a first semester first year student with limited ward exposure would be largely paid by the educational side of the partnership. However, for the remainder of the time, that spent 'working' on the wards, the student would be paid by the hospital where the work was performed. Presumably this would mean by the end of the course the student would be largely 'paid' by the hospital they worked in.............paragraph.................. This means that the student would have to be given a payroll number and the hospital would be responsible for calculating and paying the 'wage' that the individual student 'earned'. This could be incremental, dependent on experience and reviewed semester by semester. This would mean that as the course progressed and so did the students skills, so there capacity to earn would increase. .............paragraph.................. Present sandwich course students earn significant amounts of money during their year in industry yet retain their student status so some form of precedent exists. The wards would be obliged to regard the implications of rostering students as cheap cover or using final year students to make up for staff shortages. If possible the negotiation of shift allowances would further the students cause. .............paragraph.................. Basically, if you were going to earn a reasonable wage, even if it was not a significant one, working all those unsocial hours would be a little less painful. If the cost forced ward managers to re-evaluate their use of students, perhaps there would be a lower incidence of unsocial rostering anyway. The pressure to work in addition to study and placement would be reduced, and hopefully the pressure as well. With a little more money rolling in, more weekends off and the chance to relax or study at night instead of slipping into another job, life might improve. .............paragraph.................. The money will essentially come from the same place, though there will need to be more of it. However, the cost of dropouts and people leaving the profession should be considered here as well. .............paragraph.................. So, please chip in with the all the blatantly obvious things I have overlooked or missed, it is just you know what it is like when you think your onto something. .............paragraph.................. Oh, I should think that as long as you 'earn' less than £120.00 per week tax and NI should not be a problem.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 18:52:33 (BST)
How mature, Suren.
I totally agree with Angela regarding the bitterness and immaturity expressed on this website of late. Suren, I was under the impression that you were elected as student representative. How? You do nothing but verbally abuse the students who write in with issues that obviously you have no regard or concern for. I have read your last messages addressed to Roger and feel deeply appalled. Is this the voice of someone we are meant to be able to rely on for help and support? I think not. I personally think you are abusing your position and if I had my way you would not be student rep. You need to LISTEN to what people are saying before you jump on your high horse giving advice and opinions which wouldn't even be possible in an IDEAL WORLD. Stop using this website as a petty excuse to lay into every student who expresses their concerns or thoughts. I would recommend that you examine your thoughts and maturity before you next write.
Ange
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:49:53 (BST)
Idea
We currently earn £2.60-ish an hour for our time, whether at college, placement or on holiday. Some of have been discussing the idea that if we received the same flat rate for the college element and the holidays, paid by the college/LHA, as a grant/bursary; we then reason that we could be paid the minimum wage for the time on the wards, by the hospital that we were/are working in. Hopefully we would be able to get some form of adjustment for weekends and nights. This would allow students to be viewed as something less than cheap-rate bank HCA's. Perhaps a change in the cost that students represent to hospitals would help engender a change in the way students are utilised and rostered and ultimately treated.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:41:26 (BST)
Appearrd on the BBC site:
Monday, 4 September, 2000, 14:20 GMT 15:20 UK Seriously ill 'left with student nurses' Inexperienced nurses are being left to cope with high pressure situations Student nurses are being left to look after seriously ill patients without supervision, a survey has revealed. Research by the public sector union Unison has found that a serious shortage of nurses in the NHS may be putting patients at risk. The survey is released on the same day that an NHS Trust announced it was turning to TV advertising in a bid to curb its staffing problems. The poll of more than 200 student nurses and midwives in London found that 45% had been left alone in situations where they felt patient care was put at risk. The desperate shortage of nurses cannot be used as an excuse for unsafe practice Christine Hancock, Royal College of Nursing A Unison spokesman said: "Student nurses are being left alone in intensive care wards and acute wards in hospitals where people have just come back from operations. "They are understandably terrified and we have very real concerns about this practice." "We are all for students getting experience, particularly in their third year, but second year students with very little experience are being left alone and that is unacceptable." The union said that many trainee nurses are being regarded as "an extra pair of hands" rather than students who need supervising. Student nurses are paid just £2.60 an hour and the survey also found that 95% are forced to work extra hours for private agencies to supplement their incomes. Poor pay: Unison nursing student president Alice Dawnay said: "Not only are students being paid less than the minimum wage, but they are also expected to plug the gaps as staff in the NHS struggle to give patients the care they deserve. "It is no wonder that 30% of nursing students in London end up dropping out of their course within the first year as they try to juggle the demands of their training together with the need to survive." London has one of the worst nursing shortages in the country and the government has recently announced a series of measures to tackle the problem. Royal College of Nursing general secretary Christine Hancock said: "This is an alarming report". "Nursing students are in hospital to learn, not to be left in charge of patients, many of whom are seriously ill. "The desperate shortage of nurses cannot be used as an excuse for unsafe practice." Television campaign: The TV advertising campaign to be run by East Kent Hospitals is believed to be the first of its kind in the UK. The trust, which manages five hospitals, hopes to lure back former nurses and midwives who have left the profession by offering flexible working conditions. The series of 14 adverts will feature nurses already working in the local service. Nurse recruitment manager Hilary Brian said: "A single half-page advert in the nursing press is very expensive and makes TV advertising attractive, particularly compared to the cost of bringing in nurses from abroad." Search BBC News Online
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:06:58 (BST)
that should read " I HAVE HAD QUITE ENOUGH...."
Angela Smith
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 14:25:00 (BST)
WHAT A BLOODY SHAMBLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'M SICK FED UP COMMING ONTO THIS SITE TO FIND PETTY BLOODY SQUABBLING. I HAVE ALREADY STATED "DIVIDED WE FALL" AND THE DIVISIONS ARE BECOMING ALL TOO OBVIOUS. I AM TRYING TO RUN A CAMPAIGN THAT WILL INVOLVE ALL SECTIONS OF STUDENT NURSES BUT QUITE ENOUGH OF THE PETTY ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE DOMINATED THIS SITE IN THE LAST FEW DAYS. THESE PEOPLE KNOW WHO THEY ARE. ONE OF THEM I AM PARTICULARLY DISAPPOINTED IN THIS PERSON SHOULD KNOW BETTER THEY ARE IN A POSITION WERE THEY WILL HAVE TO ROLL WITH THE PUNCHES. IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN A POSITION OF OFFICE YOU HAVE GOT TO LEARN THAT NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU OR THE WAY YOU DO THINGS. THAT'S LIFE AND, IF YOU ARE GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO YOU LEARN TO IGNORE THOSE PEOPLE AND GET ON WITH WHAT EVER IT IS YOU BELIEVE IN. WE ALL WANT THE SAME THINGS AND FRANKLY WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET IT THIS WAY. I WANT PEOPLE TO HELP ME WITH MY CAMPAIGN FOR STUDENT BURSARYS, BUT I DO NOT NEED NOR WANT PEOPLE WHO CANT GET OVER THEMSELVES AND SEE THAT WE ARE ALL FIGHTING FOR THE SAME THING. FOR EVERYONE ELSE'S SAKE GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 14:23:25 (BST)
YOUR INCREDIBLY THICK ARENT YOU?
MAY AS WELL TRY AND PITCH THIS AT THE INTELLECTUAL LEVEL THAT R.C.N. COUNCIL MEMBERS OPERATE AT. AGAIN YOU HAVE CHALLENGED ME PRIVATELY ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT I WRITE ABOUT. I THINK THAT IF YOU CAN READ (AND FOR ME THAT IS A PRETTY BIG IF) YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ELUCIDATE THE FACT THAT I AM WRITING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO STUDENT NURSES AND NURSING IN GENERAL. YOU CAN KEEP ALL YOUR CLOSET CHRISTIAN CLAP-TRAP, IT SEEMS THAT MUCH AS MESSR'S PYTHON SUGGESTED THE "GREEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH" AND INDEED "BLESSED ARE THE CHEESEMAKERS". I DO APOLOGISE FOR THE USE OF REFERENCES WHICH YOU HAVE SOMEHOW CONTORTED INTO RACIST IDEALOTORY, CLEARLY YOUR FANTASTIC COMMAND OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS ALLOWED YOU TO READ WHAT THE HELL YOU LIKE INTO ANYTHING. JUDGING BY THE STRENGTH OF REACTION, YOU SHOULD PERHAPS RESIGN THE TENUOUS POSITION YOU WERE VOTED (UNOPPOSED) INTO (BUT NOT BY ME) AND CONCENTRATE YOUR EFFORTS ON ATTACKING THE VILE BRITISH AND THEIR TREATMENT OF HCA'S FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. THIS WOULD SEEM MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED. AS FAR AS STOPPING THE HCA AND DOCTOR BASHING, THIS IS A STUDENT NURSING WEBSITE, A FACT YOU SEEM TO HAVE AS LITTLE GRASP OF AS THE FACTS DISPLAYED HERE. YES I AM SURE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TURN THIS AROUND AND PROBABLY HAVE ME BANNED FROM THE R.C.N. FOR LIFE UNDER SOME DISTORTION OF THE RACE ETHICS LAWS. WELL DONE, YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY STIFLED A DEMOCRATIC DEBATE WITH YOUR PARANOIA. YOU HAVE PRODUCED THE INTELLECTUAL EQUIVALENT OF THE 'NECKLACE TIRE'. OH, I DID LIVE IN AFRICA ALL RIGHT, IN A COUNTRY CALLED EGYPT, YOU HAVE PROBABLY NEVER HEARD OF IT. I HAVE NOT BEEN TO TRANSKIE OR THE HIGH VELDT, NOR DO I POSSESS A FOOT LONG BEARD AND A COMMAND OF THE AFRIKAANS LANGUAGE. I DO HAVE A 'FOREIGN' NAME, SO I SUPPOSE PEOPLE WITH THE WIT AND INTELLIGENCE OF A CARROT COULD READILY ASSUME THAT I WAS A BOER TRACKING THEM ACROSS THE WEB TO HUMILIATE THEM. GOOD NEWS THEN, I AM NOT A BOER AND YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT PEOPLE PORTRAYING YOU AS SOME SORT OF FEEBLE-MINDED, MOUTH FOAMING RANTER, YOU DO THAT FOR YOURSELF. OH, DO I GET TO INSULT YOU ON A PERSONAL LEVEL NOW? PROBABLY NOT, IF I INSULTED YOU BY CALLING YOU A COWARD LIAR ETC, THEN I COULD BE ACCUSED OF RACISM AS AFTER ALL YOU ARE NOT OF THIS LAND, AND I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOU WOULD AND PROBABLY HAVE USED THAT ONE A FEW TIMES. AS FOR JOINING YOU! I WOULD RATHER ATTEMPT TO FORM A DEBATING SOCIETY WITH A HAMSTER
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 10:10:49 (BST)
APOLOGIES FOR BAD GRAMMAR
My sincerest apologies for my bad grammar......English is not my first language but I try my best. If I have repeated myself I am sorry. I have to think Afrikaans and write in English so this is expressed opposite from what is said very slightly.....I am sorry once again.
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 09:53:40 (BST)
This Ship has a Captain
Tim, it would be good for you to read what has been written before you go off on the same tangent. Roger and his chums have attacked me from day one. To them the things they say my be humorous to them but I am not laughing. He has constantly attacked me and he got his mates as well. I stand by what I said and in no way have I said he was a racist. His constant attacks on me was like being home.....or working in the last work environment I worked in. Let me tell u something...racism is there and everyone knows it....they hide behind this sick disease by the means of denial. People are aware if they make blatant racist remarks, they can be prosecuted or sued in a civil court of law.....racists do not say much or write much, it is their actions speak louder than their words. (this is not referred to or insinuating that Roger and his chums are racist. It is an explanation my grandad gave me and my siblings in regards to make us to understand about racism in South Africa. I am not using racism as a form of defence here. But many people over here have attacked HCAs . The terminology they used and the reference to Hitler. Now that is racism and xenophobia....as far as my knowledge most HCAs are either black or from the Philipines.....the Philipinos are very qualified degree or diploma people. They have to work in the wards from six to twelve months as HCA before they are fully accepted as qualifed nurses, even though in their country they are fully qualified nurses. There are lots of students who talk down to these people. These people are human beings.....there are some bad HCAs but not all of them. Look at the postings here about the HCAs and you would see that all was filled with vermin and hatred. that attacks was very personal. These people were being attacked with an opportunity to defend themselves, then the placements were being attacked. Once again the tone and language used was not polite, it was vulgar and rude. So Tim, these people opened themselves to criticism and as u say it is about debating.....is it not that these people cannot accept I believe in being fair no matter what the situation is. I will not sit here and let these people attack a very hard working group of people who are an asset to the nursing profession. We are dependent on them. They do play a very important role in nursing...so do the staff nurses. This expression comes to mind "THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE." I am not anti students I have the best of students at heart but I will not let a few to ruin a good relationship between HCAs, Staff Nurses and Students. Take a good read on the website and see there is more hatred than good there. I am aware that HCAs and Staff Nurses read these pages because I referred them to it......this tirade has to stop and stop now.....before we alienate ourselves totally.....I am not the enemy I am very disappointed that Roger and his chums ahs chosen the path they have chosen
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 03:04:44 (BST)
A ship without a captain.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. We really need to get a grip of this web-site. What is going on in here? Suren, you cannot go around labeling people as "sad, sick, racist, fascist, shallow and weak". You certainly have the right to reply, especially if you don't agree with someone else's point of view. But come on, as a representative of all students it has to be more objective and you can definitely not single out individuals with these sort of attacks. You have the privilege of access to certain corridors of power that we as regular students don't, you will have to give us some leeway if we don't have all the facts.
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:42:19 (BST)
Withdrawal number two
I would again like to make clear that I refute all allegations of racist behaviour. I would like to state my sadness at this turn of events. I will henceforth cease to post replies on this website in the hope that I may avoid any further allegations of this type. Yours sincerely,
Kris Nicol
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:27:35 (BST)
Response to Roger
I have not labeled you a racist. It is your constant attack on me. Look at your very first response to me to the present one. You would see u have responded to what you have said to me. Well maybe that would be nice to meet you face to face so we can sort this out. I have asked u several times to meet and discuss this. Have you responded to that. I addressed you via email..what did you do? you brought it into the chat room. So mate you want to see Queens Council u are more than welcome to. I have a intelligence complimented with common sense...so mate remember you started this and you have made a lot of remarks that insinuated a lot of things....so do what you have to do and I will defend it with my honour and intergrity...good bye and good luck
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:25:18 (BST)
wow
How much lower can you stoop Roger.....u know the saying "EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE" do u really believe I am using my position......Roger I timorously invited you to work with me on issues....have you ever responded to those....have you ever said anything in that regards......so please stop this feel sorry for me and I am sorry attitude u have developed......before you pen the next attack on me think carefully very carefully....from my very first posting you have attacked me......it is like this I "WHEN A THIEF STEALS WOULD HE ADMIT THAT HE HAS STOLEN....NOPE" think mate....think very hard and carefully about the accusations u have made on this website.....I have sent u emails why are you dragging it into this website....if I wanted to address u in public then I would have posted it here....so if u have any honour or integrity u would stop this attack on me and rather work with me on the real issues here...student funding, accommodation, placements, travel costs, hardship fund, bad practice teachers and mentors......lets use this wasted energy on more useful debates than cheap attacks on ward nurses and HCAs....they are not responsible for our hardship lets focus on the real issues than this silly childish tirade......I am still willing to work with anyone who is willing to work with me for a better future both as a student and nurse
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:17:55 (BST)
Statement
I have been using this site to express my opinions about student nursing. I have leveled criticism where I believe it was warranted. If I felt safe to continue contributing to this web site, I would continue to do so. However, I feel that the conditions are being set to allow me to be portrayed as some kind of rabid racist. In this profession there is little room for bigots and I am sure that once labeled It would be hard to shake the tarnished image. Julius Ceasar said that "it takes a man a lifetime to build a reputation and but a moment to lose it". A wiser man than I for sure. I will not accept the libelous and scurrilous commentary that is being made against me without seeking some form of redress. If Suren continues to pursue his present course labeling me as racist and cowardly, he may find himself face to face with if not me, then certainly a Queen's Council.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:11:30 (BST)
Hey Roger
Are u this sad....are u not man enough to face me one to one...are u so desperate for attention......u know what I will play along with you ok.....let me amuse you and your chums....seems like u guys lack humour so let me humour you.......you start a topic and I will try my best to humour you and your chums....wow......when where u in South Africa and for how long.....what province is Natal in and what is the capital Transkie
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:06:38 (BST)
Lets meet Roger
Hey lets meet face to face and sort this out........do u really think you are making me look like a fool by attacking me in the website.....this just shows that you are man with no substance.....if u are willing to dish it out then be able to receive it.....why are you hiding behind the website and a few chums.....are u not man enough to meet face to face and discuss this.....I am not using racism as an excuse I am just stating the facts here about how people behave....and your behaviour says it all.....why not debate the real issues here....why not use the same energy and your wisdom and improve the conditions for nursing students....why are you not addressing the other issues I have approached you about your knowledge of the law etc.....if you really feel hard done by your placement in the ward make a formal complaint and use that procedure to get justice for yourself, or the accusations u made here are false with no substance.....did these things really happen....I am finding it difficult to believe you now.......if you was really victimised in the ward...make that formal complaint and let the hospital investigate and discipline this person or persons...we do not want other students to suffer the same faith do we now......so if u really want to help nursing students, then make that complaint and the allegations you have made are very serious......so think very carefully before you put ink to paper
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:02:37 (BST)
More reason from Suren Suku
What a coward are u scared to meet me face to face......u think I am scared of you.......once again u have showed your true colours....it shows how shallow and weak you are...... you know nothing about apartheid and racism.....you are a free rider
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:00:59 (BST)
Question?
Im sorry but I feel hurt. In no way was I a racist. In no way do I perpetrate the bigoted views that Suren suggests I do. I refute totally all allegations of racism against me and ask a question of all the readers and contributors to this site. If you believe that anything I said in any way could be understood to be racist towards Suren in any way, if I have denigrated him on the basis of his culture, colour, race or religious beliefs, then I will retract everything that I have said about him and will write him an unreserved apology. If you believe as I do, that he is being over sensitive even zealous in his attacks, and if you believe that all I did was express my opinions on his viewpoints and his standpoints then you will be as puzzled as I am by his outburst. I seek not to vilify him, only to engage him in a debate (which is what I believed this site was for). I wanted to exchange arguments with him and feel very strongly that I have been wrongly accused of something I did not, and have not done. I apologise to all if indeed you believe I am guilty of these statements, but I believe that I have carried myself in the correct manner at all times. Yours sincerely,
Kristian Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:58:56 (BST)
Withdrawal
I should like to withdraw from this site and the paranoid delusions of one of the main contributor. It is an offence in this democratic state to accuse someone of racism without foundation or substance. Offence was not intended, even if it was taken. As an elected representative of the RCN and ANS, you should take a long hard look at what you are writing, it is quite simply rhetoric.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:56:14 (BST)
FOR AN IDIOT WHO HIDES BEHIND ANONIMITY
WOW ..... IF U WAS HALF THE MAN OR LADY YOU WOULD NOT HIDE BEHIND ANONIMITY....IT WOULD BE MY PLEASURE TO MEET YOU FACE TO FACE AND DISCUSS THIS....ARE U A RACIST....HAVE I TOUCHED A NERVE IN YOUR SAD LIFE THAT YOU CHOOSE TO HIDE YOUR IDENTITY......YOU ARE A COWARD AND WILL ALWAYS BE ONE...ACTUALLY I DO HAVE A SENSE OF HUNMOUR. IF U SAY MAKING BIGOTTED REMARKS WITH RACIST OVERSTONES IS HUMOUR. THEN I AM SORRY I DO NOT FIND THAT AMUSING......IF THIS MAKES YOU LAUGH AND A FULL HUMAN BEING GOOD LUCK TO YOU.....IT WHAT A MODEL CITIZEN YOU ARE
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:49:26 (BST)
Suren, if this is balanced...
WELL HERE IS A THING!! I WROTE THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE TO SUREN TO STATE MY CASE IN WHAT I HOPED TO BE A BALANCED WAY. Suren I don't even think of this country as my home, I have lived more in the Middle East than in England despite what it says on my passport! I am of immigrant stock, German Irish if your interested but the one thing I am not is a bigot. I find that your equating me to a Boer Vortrekker is more than a little out of place. I visited South Africa when it was a fascist state and I also lived in Africa as a foreigner. The lessons I learned was an understanding of the gentle beauty of the Africans I met, with their easy humour and joyous way of living. I learned to appreciate Islam, Coptics, Greek Orthodox, Christian, Fallange, Jewish and Maronite faiths. Whatever happened in your past must and may affect your life, but my past affects mine and I am not prepared to be labeled. My point is simple, in this country, the waves of racial resentment run through all walks of life. If people constantly defend themselves as individuals with the arguments of racial oppression; then all it serves to do is make racial oppression a cheaper thing. That is not in the interests of anyone. I THOUGHT THAT THIS MIGHT CALM HIM AND ALLOW HIM TO GET AWAY FROM THIS PERSECUTION COMPLEX HE IS BUSY DEVELOPING. I GOT THIS IN REPLY, THIS IS THE BALANCED AND REASONED VOICE OF OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE, SLEEP WELL.. you are a very sick man........where do u know me from ......it is the likes of you that makes the racists and fascist to prosper......you are a very sad person....very sad.....lets meet face to face and sort this out..........u hide behind a computer in the comfort of your home....and think you are god....well matey u are just a sad person who uses the Internet to vent your anger and frustrations here......well lets meet face to face and sort this out.....from day you have been attacking me .......so put your money where your mouth and meet me face to and say what you are saying on the websites I WILL NOW SHOW WHAT I REPLIED WITH Nice, like your style, very balanced, very open. Good to know that the future of nursing is such safe hands, perhaps you should post your last missive from me on the chat site. Because unless you work out some way of retracting what you just sent me it will be there in 20 minutes time for all to see your true colours.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:39:09 (BST)
WOW WHAT A RESPONSE
I know I said I would not come back I have to say this mush the both of you meet me face to face and lets discuss this further. By the way Roger there is more instituionalised racism in this country and anywhere else. At least in South Africa they were honest but here it is all hidden in the appearance. Should I remind you about the late Stephen Lawrence and the McPherson report and also the follow up admissions of this type of racism within the various government departments which includes the NHS. I have witnessed racism in the wards whereby white English staff nurses abuse black and Philipino nurses and the manner they talk down to them and abuse them. So don't you and Kris lecture me here. racism is here and it will always be here. Racism comes from all sides....black on white....white on white .....white on black....so people please stop finding excuses here and have cheap shots at me.......Roger take a good look at yourself......think and reflect about the things you have written on this website...the people you have attacked and belittled without giving them a chance.....and you Kris ...look at your postings......so stop your bigotry and live a real life.....it is easy to sit behind a computer and air your views.......lets meet in person and talk to me.....ok please do that.....I am willing to meet you anywhere....name the date time and place.......u see Ihave seen enough racists and bigots in my life time to recognise one........I FIND THIS RATHER AMUSING THAT HOW ROGER AND KRIS PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME ON.....BUT THEY WOULD NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES HERE...THAT ISSUE IS ABOUT FUNDING AND PLACEMENTS....I HAVE ASKED ROGER MANY TIMES TO WORK WITH ME ON THIS ONE.....HAS HE AGREED OR MADE ANY ATTEMPT TO SAY LETS MEET AT THE CONFERENCE AND TALK NO......HE DID NOT...I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS LAW KNOWLEDGE AND HAS HE RESPONDED NO......SO ROGER PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND DO SOMETHING ...... MONEY TALKS BANANA WALKS....IN YOUR RECENT POSTINGS U MADE ACCUSATIONS BOUT BEING ILLTREATED AND HARD DONE BY THE SISTER IN YOUR WARD....SEEMS LIKE THIS PERSON HAS BREACHED SOME ETHICS AND CODES YOU SHOULD MAKE A FORMAL COMPLAINT ABOUT THIS INCIDENT SO THAT IT CAN BE INVESTIGATED AND THIS PERSON IF FOUND GUILTY SHOULD BE DISCIPLINED. WE CANNOT HAVE THIS GOING ON CAN WE. WHAT ABOUT THE NEXT STUDENT...WOULD WE WANT THIS PRACTICE TO CARRY ON..AFTER ALL WE ARE ALL WHINGING ABOUT BAD PRACTICE IN THE PLACEMENTS....IF WE DO NOT REPORT THEM HOW ARE WE GOING TO STOP THIS...SO ROGER AND ALL THE OTHERS WHO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH PLACEMENTS....USE THE COMPLAINTS PROCEDURE AND LETS PUT A STOP TO THIS PRACTICE...IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS AGAISNT YOUR PLACEMENTS AND YOUR MENTORS OR STAFF NURSES ON THE WARD.....LETS OUT PEN TO PAPER AND LETS MAKE IT KNOWN TO THEM THAT WE WOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS BEHAVIOUR...AFTER ALL IT IS YOUR FUTURE IN THEIR HANDS.....IT IS EITHER YOU PUT UP OR SHUT UP......IF YOU ALL REALLY FEEL THIS HARD DONE BY YOUR PLACEMENTS AND PRACTICE MENTORS REPORT THEM....OR STOP THIS BIGOTRY.....now u can write all the nasty things you want to.......I cannot be bothered anymore to respond to childish snipes at me....with or wihout your help NURSING STUDENTS WILL PROSPER....REMEMBER THERE IS 41,000 NURSING STUDENTS AND JUST A HANDFUL OF YOU...WHEN THEY SEE WHAT I STAND FOR AND SEE THE CHANGES .....THEY WOULD JUDGE ME ON THAT AND NOT ON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE......I MERELY RESPONDED TO YOUR POSTINGS...SEEMS LIKE U DO NOT LIKE THE REPLIES YOU GET U ATTACK ME AND TRY TO MAKE ME THE BAD GUY....WELL THUS FAR I HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR UNITY AND WORKING TOGETHER......HAVE ANY OF YOU SAID YES WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER......THAT SAYS A LOT...RACISM IS NOT WHAT WRITTEN OR SAID BY A PERSON....IT IS THE ACTION THAT SPEAKS LOUDER THAN THEIR WORDS....GOOD BYE AND GOD BLESS....NOW LEAVE ME ALONE I GOT BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN RESPOND TO SILLY POSTINGS LIKE THESE.....
Suren Suku
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:31:37 (BST)
Racial undertones???
I am an avid reader of the messages posted on this page and have been for a number of months. I am due to start my training in 2 weeks! I would just like to add my bit towards the discussion. Firstly, Suren - get a life! No one on here is getting at you personally, and I find it really difficult to find racial abuse in any of the messages posted on here. For you to attack another member like you have is pathetic. We are all in the same boat, fighting to get what we deserve. I have one other comment about the attitudes of qualified nurses. I am currently working as a bank nursing auxiliary to try to get myself through training. While I agree that there are nurses on the ward which I work on that really should wake up and change their attitude, it is us, as student nurses to change those attitudes when we qualify. We will be setting examples to the student nurses of the future. I for one will try my hardest to help any student to become a better nurse. I won't ramble any longer. Take care everyone and good luck with your studies.
Heather <Leheluja@aol.com>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:20:26 (BST)
Now there's a man in need of a sense of humour transplant!
Lynette dont worry it seems as if our esteemed colleague 'saint' Suren Suku has a complete lack of a sense of humour. Perhaps he needs to lighten up a bit and stop being so bloody precious. Not everything in the world revolves around him. And as for your sense of humour it seems fine to me. Perhaps Suren does get up to something nocturnally that we need to worry about. Perhaps that is why he is so sensitive. If humour is a crime then you'll have to shoot me first. Suren sort your worthy but sad life out and get a sense of humour!

- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:04:09 (BST)
Suren Grow Up...
Suren, whilst I respect your right to an opinion, I must protest at your tone. To call a fellow nursing student the equivalent of the Afrikaners back home is totally unacceptable. It seems to me in my humble view that you have been ready to take offense at anything that you disagree with and then if people further disagree with your viewpoint you call it racism. This smacks very much of petty childishness. If you don't agree with me then I am going home. There are no racists here and while I accept your points that there is an awful lot of negativity on this site it is because there is an awful lot of negativity in Nursing! If people cannot have there say without having people overreact (which you are) then what is the future of democracy? Democracy involves the stating of viewpoints to which you may not agree so what would you have happen, that all discussion stops encase people somehow injure your sensibilities? Its about time you realised that not everyone in this world agrees with you and that just because they have a different viewpoint to you it does not make them a racist, it does not even mean that they don't like you. It just means that they hold a different point of view. I suggest that you stop being so paranoid and seeking conspiracies where there are none and grow up. Variety is the spice of life and any democratic society needs a difference of opinion. If you are ever to survive on the wards, my friend, you need to toughen up. Stop being so sensitive. If you are this sensitive on a nursing student chat website god knows what you must be like in the flesh...
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:47:44 (BST)
Trump card
Why is it that you can manage to read racial overtones into EVERYTHING? Bad news, I have lived as a 'foreigner' for over 15 years of my life on four different continents and would like to think that it has helped me to be supportive and understanding of people of different cultures in this country. In fact, I have had the pleasure of being told this by some of the African students on my course, something that made me feel more than a little proud. I justified my support of them as being reciprocal, as I had been treated with the same courtesy when I lived in Africa. WELL DONE if you intend to fight the good fight for student nurses but if when you are doing it you constantly take exception to anything that could be remotely extrapelated as being even vaguely racist in inference, then you are going to let more than a few people down. I bemused by the fact that in almost every instance where you have been the recipient of criticism in your 'professional' capacity, you have reverted to accusing those who have leveled criticism against you as being racist? It is beginning to sound like a well worn trump card! If you achieve even a quarter of the things you are setting out to do then you will be able to depend on the loyal service and respect of ALL student nurses. Why is it that you seek to have free ranging arguments with people, then recoil behind an argument which conveniently portrays all those who would disagree as narrow minded bigots? I have had the opportunity to assist people of different races, religions and beliefs on many occasions and one of the reasons I find myself taking a nursing course is that I am a great fan of philanthropy. Travel has taught me that we are the same under different skins and with different ways. As far as cheap shots go, yours has been the cheapest!
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:37:45 (BST)
GOODBYE
Just want to say thank you to all of you for your postings and thoughts on various hardships experienced by yourselves and many students. I have taken all on board about your experiences and treatment at these placements. I am not going to promise you all the world and deliver nothing. But I do know I am going to try my damnedest to get us all a fair and proper increase in the bursary and grant issue. Regards to placement I am going to campaign vigorously for better induction's, communications and more link tutor involvement. Will try and get more textbooks in the library, more lecturer and tutorial support. I cannot say I will be able to deliver but at least I would try and who knows we might just get at least 50% of that which is better than nothing at the moment. As in regards to Rogers remarks I think you should go back and read all your remarks and personal attacks on people here. May I remind you that I lived in a racist society for 30 years of my life and was subjected to this vile behavior at least 20 years of it , i.e. from the age of 10. So please don't you lecture me and suggest that I am stirring racial tension here. You should read your postings and the manner and tone you have written them and when you can understand your own posting then meet me and explain to me what they mean. You are making me paranoid on these pages. Your ranting and raving reminds me of the Afrikaners back home. I have invited you to work with me. You seem to have the knowledge and you seem to be factual in what you say so lets put your words into action. Well everyone WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE NOW. ARE WE GOING TO WHINGE ON THIS WEBSITE ALL THE TIME OR ARE WE GOING TO UNITE AND RUN A SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGN FOR A FAIR AND SUBSTANTIAL INCREASE? NOW IT IS UP TO YOU. IF ANYONE WANTS TO JOIN ME AND SUPPORT ME ON THESE ISSUES I AM WILLING TO WORK WITH YOU ALL. BUT LETS STOP THIS HCA, SISTER, STAFF NURSE AND JUNIOR DOCTOR BASHING. AFTER ALL WHEN YOU ALL QUALIFY YOU WILL MOST PROBABLY END UP WORKING WITH THE VERY PEOPLE YOU ALL DESPISE. I AM NOT GOING TO RETURN TO THIS WEBSITE ANYMORE. I AM JUST TIRED OF THIS PETTY TIRADES AND NEGATIVITY AND I AM NOT GOING TO SUBJECT MYSELF TO COWARDLY ATTACKS BY PEOPLE WHO DO NOT EVEN KNOW ME TO ATTACK WHAT I SAY. PLEASE REFLECT ON YOUR POSTINGS AND SEE ARE THEY FAIR AND IF THEY ARE THEN I APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE FOR MAKING THIS STATEMENT BUT I AM NOT GOING TO BE PARTY TO SUCH BIGOTRY AND UNFAIRNESS TO PEOPLE WHO WILL BE MY COLLEAGUES IN TWO YEARS TIME. GOD BLESS YOU ALL AND GOOD LUCK IN YOUR FUTURE..BUT PLEASE KEEP THIS HATRED AND YOU ALL WILL FEEL VERY LONELY IN THE REAL WORLD. THIS WEBSITE IS JUST A MEDIUM AND I AM AWARE OF NURSES, DOCTORS AND HCAs WHO READ THIS SITE AND ARE VERY HURT AND DISAPPOINTED IN THE BASHING AND ABUSE THEY GET ON THIS SITE. SUREN SUKU
Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com>
- Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:04:15 (BST)
Looking for a job
Does anyone know of any web sites with a good employment section?
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 21:58:48 (BST)
Petitions and just general chit chat
One thing on petitions if those of you who already have petitions know of other student nurses at other unis who might do petitions please contact me and let me know and I can send them one too. I want to keep track of which unis are involved so that uni's are not being saturated and others don't get at all. Sorry for having a go at junior Dr's last night but the two on the ward I'm on just now are, well I can't say it politely are bloody useless. Hope those of you that are going to conference soon have a good time. Some of you might be interested to know that I am also in collaboration with one of the national Scottish news papers and I am hopefully going to see the three labour MP's and the numerous MsP's as well as Alex Salmond (out going leader of the SNP) who is an mp for one of the local regions
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 17:10:04 (BST)
Racialist overtones is becoming massive
Suren, delicate though this may be, but you seem to be finding racial overtones in places where they clearly do not exist. This will only serve to dilute the message and reinforce some of the negative stereotypes that pervade our society
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 16:49:57 (BST)
oh and..
Anne-Marie I have to agree with Roger, you are sharing. We all have a lot to say I will make it clear that I am aware that I maybe better off than most, due to my circumstances but it still is not good enough. Last year I employed a nanny to look after my three children the bill added up to £870 per month and my bursary well need I say did not match that! and my husband's wages were rubbish we ran up thousands of pounds of debt in three months so my husband gave up work to look after the children. The bursary they have awarded me for my dependent husband and three children is £2490 pa ..I should be grateful maybe, but it's not just me struggling and so that is why I feel the need to rant on too! so don't stop!
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 15:07:24 (BST)
OH DEAR OHDEAR
I want to make a public apology to Suren who sent me an email. It would seem that you were unamused by my referring to your nocturnal habits....I was just trying to place a bit of friendly humour into the rather passionate rant that I had, I was only commenting on your message that was five o'clock in the morning which I thought was quite a late time of day! I am sorry that some how you got from this that I am racist because I MOST DEFINITELY AM NOT!!! I am sorry for causing you offense I won't do it again.. I guess I have a dry sense of humour which doesn't cut it with everyone ! sorry sorry sorry.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 14:51:44 (BST)
Linda
Linda Sorry about the gentle chiding, I think the question should sound more like, "How is it so many good people have struggled for so long to achieve so little". I think that in the end all the arguments can be distilled and eventually they end up in the same place. The present government and all its predecessors have had the distinct advantage when it comes to changing anything. They never had to find the edge, during negotiations, they already knew that nurses "talked the talk" but most certainly would not "walk the walk". Any lingering doubts could be put to rest, when they considered that this was so central to nursing's hierarchy that it had become enshrined in the constitution. Very few negotiations begin with one of the parties announcing that in the event of its requests being ignored and the wishes and the will of its members being discounted, that it will be obliged to do nothing. In fact it will carry on regardless, and in fact if this becomes an annual event, so will the response. I was tempted to use a canine analogy but the RSPCA will be after us if we keep talking about toothless, incontinent canines. I am fully aware of the counter-argument about patients needs, but that has now been taken out and dusted off once too often. As I work on the wards I continue to collect stories and experiences that tell me that patients already suffer. If I qualify, the one single thing that it will mean for me, is that I will not have to stand before another patient making someone else's excuses. To watch a terminal patient writhe in unspeakable agony because the Staff were 'too busy' will hopefully be something I can consign to the past. It can live there with the missed washes, unchanged dressings, lack of human contact, tearful terror and all the other things that as a student you see right up close and personal. So what I am saying is that the patients are suffering already, more than enough. The state of nursing and the nature it has taken means that wards are short-staffed, populated by the walking wounded. These people are not uncaring; they are trying to protect themselves from the reality of what they are a part of. There is altogether too much gallows humour floating around these days, a tell tale sign of stress and coping at work. What is to be done? Well the government needs more nurses and quick and public reaction to the rape of the former commonwealth countries suggests that the avenues open are narrowing. The result is a free for all, "yes, you too can be a nurse". Taking on board the HCA's means that we have got the EN's back, cadets means that we have our very own YTS scheme. Now, what characterises these options, availability, cheapness, flexibility (when I was in management that meant you could fire them easily) and the removal of the higher educational emphasis. So what is nursing going to do? They will probably meet with the government of the day and say that they feel that these are ideas that have merit. From cadet to queen is not just a dream eh Christine? The increasing incidence of people in the workplace that are not 'qualified' will probably be glossed over, and at a time when American nurses are fighting to have visual uniform distinction from their unqualified colleagues. They, as I have said before, have had LPN's and LVN's for a while now, strange how they seem to be feeling undermined? While the people I talk to say that the experiences they had as 17-18 year old 1st year students have left scar, we are talking about putting the Nintendo generation into care settings. Well, as I have said it is cheap. Government at least can relax about one element of the plan, the fact that no matter what nurses think, and a lot of the ones that I have talked to are less than thrilled about either option; nothing will be done about it by or for nurses. And in the rare event of something being done, they can be safe in the knowledge that nurses are not going to stay home today, unlike the Police or Fire Brigade have done in the past. My solution, it is easy enough, follow the Irish it took them three days and they did not lose an ounce of public credibility.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 14:35:19 (BST)
It was worse in my day...
What was it about Nursing that made me give up my dreams of doing an english or history degree and become one of the overworked and underfunded 'saints' of the nursing profession? I often lie awake at night wondering why I did it and why I choose to give up my right to a life (unwillingly) and why did I ever involve myself in the slow torture that is student nursing? Im sure all student nurses realise what im talking about. It is all very well campaigning for ideals and higher levels of practice and surely 'every thing we do should be to drive nursing forward'when I cant seem to think much more about the fact that I may not be able to feed myself for the next week. I cannot tell you of the times that I have lain in an insomniac state counting and recounting just how much money I will have till payday, I cannot say how often I have lain awake feeling sick to the stomach of being poor and knowing that there is not a damn thing I can do about it. I came into nursing for somewhat altruistic reasons (I hope) I believed that I could do some good. Fresh from college I hoped to put back something into society, I wanted to meet people and to perhaps help or even sometimes just share the things that made them unique. For the first year of my nursing course I believed that I could still change things, that people would see my enthusiasm and seek to help me learn to become one of the best Nurses I could. When I reached the second year however, reality was starting to bite. Financial considerations were beginning to dull my enthusiasm and I found myself being ground down more and more by the system. I found that it was hard to balance life and work and then study, so I withdrew and concentrated on my studies and I felt myself becoming more and more disappointed with the way I was being trained. Allegedly taking place in a higher education environment it seemed that anyone who differed from the views held by those of the establishment was remorselessly crushed. We were always told in theory that we were no longer the doctors handmaidens of old that we were thinking, questioning,practitioners and yet I found that anyone who did question was branded a troublemaker both in college and on placement. I just want to know why we do this was the question I asked, why should do we continue to bicker amongst ourselves and why do we subject our students to conditions like this? And when I asked there was no reply. It seems to me as Roger has said before that Nursing is stuck in some kind of ritualistic time warp. We musnt change is the cry I hear uttered, we have always done it this way. In my day it was much worse. Does this statement seek to justify to me all the times when I have felt low following a shift where someone has died and I have not received even the smallest of debriefs? Or the time after I saw someone die and I cried and was told to pull myself together because I was a nurse. Does this seek to console me or ease my worries about another assignment that is due in and that I wont get the result for, for a following three months drawing the whole process out into some kind of acceptable Chinese water torture? Now I'm in my third year I am hardened to the unfairness of it all and like the people I used to despise I readies that when I qualify I wont make an iota of difference. I will continue the whole self perpetuating cycle, I will crush those who seek to change and I will always seek to keep things the same. After all it was worse in my day...

- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 12:44:29 (BST)
Roger, I enjoyed reading your last posting even if it is now 2 a.m. Did you never wonder why, if you could change things when you became a prefect, no one else had bothered too in the preceding 100 years or so? Most people are happy to continue a system, no matter how unfair, because it is custom and practice, no one likes to rock the boat, because the prefects (ward sisters??) made their lives miserable when they were juniors they were determined to make someone else go through the same pain they had been through. A nurse I have a great deal of respect for once said to me that "nurses eat their own young" and sadly I knew what she meant. I would like to believe that we are not the only profession to behave in this way, that other professions have their own sort of "sluice room politics". It takes someone different and willing to make themselves unpopular to be a "tall poppy" and buck the system. Although your training is very different from mine I can empathise with a lot of what you are saying, I nearly had my training discontinued on a number of occasions, and failed numerous ward assessments, my final one at the end of three years because "Student nurse Bailey does not assume the subservient position expected of student nurses on this ward", I had that framed and on my wall for ages. I guess I was lucky to have an ally in the bloke who was head of my school of nursing. It sounds as if you have not found a similar ally but you have nearly finished your training despite this. What would be distressing is if you decide when you have qualified that you were so disillusioned you did not want to continue in nursing. I hope you stick around and continue trying to change things. BTW someone earlier asked if messagers here never sleep, I'd like to think the only thing I ever had in common with Margaret Thatcher was that I can get by on 4 hours kip a night.
Linda B****y
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 02:27:07 (BST)
Flying feathers...
This one has been in my heart and in my head for such a long time that it has become one of my favorite insomnia fueled self -debates. Throughout the two and a half years or so that I have been training, I have repeatedly come across the attitude that the course I am studying, Dip H.E. Nursing or P2K, is in some way inferior to that which preceded it. The impression that is given, often without invitation, is that I will qualify as a less practically skilled nurse than my predecessors. This produces a series of questions for me, not about the course but about those who are willing to cast dispersion upon it. While I am working on the wards, I am supposed to be receiving on the job training. Therefore, surely if at the end of three years of such training I am short of practical skills, to whom should the blame be attached? Presumably, it would be reasonable to assume that I should take some of the responsibility, as it could be argued that I had not applied myself while on placement. However, I would contend that it is indeed the very people who point the accusing finger that need to shoulder some of the responsibility. If the Staff on the wards are happy to utilise me as an HCA, why should they then be surprised when the training produces qualified nurses with HCA style skills? Surely, by solving the short term problem of staffing levels by utilising students as HCA's and consequently failing to allow them to develop appropriate skills, they are failing not only the students but also nursing itself? I worked part-time in my first year and had a conversation while at my other place of work with a senior nurse. She also lectured and complained that she was tired from marking assignments, to which I retorted that I was tired of writing them. In the ensuing conversation, she condemned the practical inadequacies of P2K trained nurses. When I replied that if anyone was to blame, then perhaps the nurses who were failing to teach students on the wards and the managers who used them as anything other than potential nurses, would be good candidates. Needless to say, this was not warmly received! I have just finished another placement today, during which one of my colleagues had her shift changed (without notice), as the ward found itself without a housekeeper for the day. Rarely would there be more than one HCA on per shift over the weekend, no matter what level of qualified staffing existed. The inevitable shortfalls were made up by students, and when questioned the stated ward policy was to give the staff, both qualified and unqualified, weekends off wherever possible. This I was told was because they had to work on the ward full time and not for just eight weeks. This presumably did not take into account the fact that student nurses could be found on the ward for up forty-eight weeks of the year? Student nurses on the ward could be expected to work one weekend in two, unlike the qualified staff. As usual, when this was raised the inevitable answer was "it was worse when I trained". I will let you into a secret, I went to a public school as a boy and boarded. It was pretty fierce stuff, shades of Tom Brown's schooldays with bullying and ridiculous regulations policed by over-zealous little tyrants. When my year approached the time we could start to dish out the punishment, I was easily as excited about it as my colleagues. When I became a prefect I reveled in my newfound authority and instantly stopped all the ritualistic rubbish that was going on. The idea spread quickly and before you knew it, all those precious traditions were consigned to the past. As a group, we reasoned that if we had hated what was being done to us, surely those that followed would have felt the same. Bit of a homespun homily I know but it illustrates why it is that I cannot understand why nursing cannot achieve this. It seems that when the uniform changes, so does the person. Not every time and even if does, it does so in varying degrees but it does. Well, that should have put the cat among the pigeons, and I am sure that those who do make students feel welcome and valued will be the ones who write in to defend themselves. They need not, if they know that they are doing that already, they should have no need. It is those who aren't that I would love to hear from or about, they are the ones who are producing poor practical practitioners.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 01:44:08 (BST)
finals
well folks....it seems like its taken forever to get to this stage of my training, but its finally arrived. I sit my finals on the 14th of September!! why do I no longer feel excited! is there anyone else out there also approaching this torture.
Sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 00:16:25 (BST)
PLACEMENTS AND FUNDING
WOW, I am really impressed by the passion and honesty that is being expressed on this website in regards to funding and placement problems. WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? it would be good if all of us stick together and lobby our local MPs, sign the petition that Angela Smith has out. I have already distributed this petition to people I know both who are nurses and students. The more signatures we get the better it is. We got to be united on this. Lets put or political beliefs aside and work together in negotiating a good deal for all students; the present and the future. Those of you who will be graduating soon good luck for the future. But please we need your support all the time. Lets not stop believing in what you have expressed so passionately about. Lets stay united and especially the final year students we need your wisdom and support to lead us into the next generation of nursing. Rob I understand u are graduating soon. As you have so passionately made your points and your well informed postings. We would benefit from your wisdom in our fight for a fair bursary increase. Show us the way to fight this monster and defeat it. Rob I invited you to work with me in getting a campaign going in regards to the various issues discussed on this page. You have made some very valid points and you also seem to know the letter of the law. I guess with your law background this would benefit our campaign. (I am sorry if I misunderstood your posting where u mentioned about you studying law). we need people like yourself and many others on this website who is passionate about student funding and treatment during placements. Friends we have the words.....now lets turn those words into "WORDS INTO ACTION".......lets call our campaign "WORDS INTO ACTION" suren suku
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 23:24:18 (BST)
Ouch!
One of those days eh? I have had one as well, having hurt my back (third student from my course to do so in as many days) while having a 6'4" 18st patient fall on me. Went in for two days and today it was too bad, so I asked to fill out an incident form ect... Net result, sent home! That would be nice but it was my last day on the ward and they wee "sorry that they would have to write in as a sickie", as I had turned up unfit for work... I just keep thinking that if I can ever qualify I will try not to be quite as miserable as they are, it almost keeps me going! In the meantime hang in, hopefully the next will not be as savage
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 23:06:30 (BST)
Bloody Junior doctors
All I can say Is you are damm lucky Anita I have just spent the last seven hours chasing doctors for discharge letters for patients some of whom went home two days ago and some o whom need prescriptions for tomorrow and now wont get home because they "could not be bothered" (their words not mine) to write them and then getting abuse from them for asking for the letters more than twice in the space of two hours. I then got into trouble from a staff nurse from the day surgery ward because I did not take a patients case notes with me I did not even know where they were it turned out the affor mentioned Junior Dr. had taken them to lunch with him. The said nurse did not even apologise People wonder why we drop out ?? well I tell you I could quiet easily jack it in tomorrow
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 22:46:00 (BST)
Where are all the Scottish nurses?
I still have not received any offers for petitions from any Scottish uni's yet this upsets me a little. Come on people where are your fighting spirits?
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 22:24:54 (BST)
Im not Gengis Kahn Honest!!
The last time I logged on there wasn't half the messages there is now. It took me ages to read all of the post, my phone bill is going to be huge! Im just writing to say how hugely impressed I am with this debate and to perhaps move it on a stage further. Student funding at the present time is abysmal and a return to employee status may be overdue. And before all you RCN 'spaniels' rush to lynch me for being a luudite and the nursing equivalent of Gengis Kahn I am not against nursing taking place in a higher education environment but at the moment the higher education route seems to have failed us both in a financial and a being supported whilst learning sense. I think that carrying out a job as taxing and as difficult as Nursing whilst studying full time and not getting paid a living wage is a damning incitement of the present state of affairs. What other higher education course expects its students to do this? And why oh why don't I have lots of time of over the summer? (Dreaming of a hot beach!) The situation at the moment seems to reek of exploitation and strangely enough isn't that the cry that is issued when anyone suggests we return to employee status? Doesn't working on a ward with only two other members of staff (well apart from those of us working in rehab hospitals!) doesn't this seem a tad exploitative? At least if we were employees then we would be covered by employee law and entitled to at least the minimum wage and also ward mangers might have to think twice about staffing the wards with students if they qualified for weekend pay rates... Still if anyone can think of a way of better paying students while still protecting them I would be glad to hear it (mind you so would the Government!!!) As my friend Suren says Unity through Strength or something approaching that anyway. P.s im not a member of Unison honest!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 20:37:11 (BST)
My first placement
I am 2 weeks into my first 4 week placement and how lucky I am!!! The hospital I am at is a rehab type place and at the moment they are OVER-STAFFED!!!! One of the two wards is closed for a while for re-wiring and it is great. The staff have loads of time and patience to teach, I've been on ward rounds with the doctors who have taken the time to explain each patient's condition and why they are so. I've also dealt with my first death, attended case conferences, done my first injections, temps, pulses and I am able to go up to the study room in the afternoons to do some assignment work. I feel that I have gained the trust of the patents and have a good relationship with them. I am able to attend physio assessments, OT assessments and pretty much visit any department I want to. I realise that I must make the most of this and that I will probably not get another placement like this one, what bliss it would be if this was the norm. Every member of staff have had something to teach, we have a lot to learn from HCA's, even though I have been one and I can't praise them all enough. I feel as though I've learnt a wealth of information. The only downside is that I am holding a job down too which can be quite difficult but luckily I'm bar manager in the pub so the staff swap hours around with me to fit in with placements. Problem is I'm shattered!!! But I'm sure it will be worth it in the end.
Anita
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:53:46 (BST)
You are sharing not whining
Anne-Marie it is great that you shared your experience with 'us'. The more that 'we' find out about the conditions that prevail around the country the better 'we' will know how to react. A few weeks of observing as a body and I think the wards would be quite keen to see us paid! By 'we' I mean those that read this site not Royalty
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:44:37 (BST)
just out of interest is anyone here from the Uni of Central Lancs? Anyone here planning to attend it?
Ange
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:09:17 (BST)
WAITING FOR THE GREAT LEAP FORWARD
This site is a great forum for debate on several issues and I have found lively and interesting. But is there anything we can physically do to change our situation regarding are pitiful bursaries. My university launched a new initiative called the mature student bursary. I collected the form, which was about 12 pages in total, and it took me hours to fill in - I had to account for every penny I spent including "entertainment" well I suppose that constitutes my television license and my library card! I then had to give copies of bills, bank and credit card statements, child minder fees etc. etc. - it took a while. I handed it in and waited hopefully...but only to get a letter back saying as I was on a non-means tested bursary I was entitled to nothing. Well I suppose I was not really surprised. Bit of a waste of time really. Sorry had to get that one off my chest. What I am trying to say in a very round about way is how can we change our situation, what can we do to make a stand? it is all very well to discuss our situation but we need action - I am willing to take action but need guidance and support. Sorry I have gone on... but my overdraft just keeps increasing!
Anne-Marie Osborne <h9150375@hud.ac.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:48:19 (BST)
Suren
Suren I am not entirely sure what it is you have invited me to do, if indeed you have invited me to do anything. I am keen to do anything in my limited power to promote the cause of students nurses and to assist any of my fellow student nurses. I am not sure if a separate forum is needed to discuss anything, as this one seems to do an excellent job. I have visited the RCN chat page concerning bursaries and have found that there are some other agendas being raised. I do not think that the RCN site offers the same degree of freedom as the Brutish nursing site, being as it has to be moderated. I have to confess that I am a great fan of 'angry' people's opinions. People rarely become irate without provocation or cause and the fact that some of the subjects debated generate some heated exchanges is wonderful! Nursing needs passion and passionate people to help drag it into this century from where it lurks on the edge of the century before last. I am certainly interested in reaching out and contacting student nurses in other countries and in other cultures to compare the training and conditions they experience. However, all this will have to be balanced against the fact that I am not going to be a student for too much longer, well I hope not for too much longer. I should qualify in the New Year and have almost a month of holiday in that time as well. So, if I have missed the point or barked up the wrong tree, then apologies but hopefully this will clarify the situation.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:38:24 (BST)
politics
I am intrigued and overwhelmed at the messages that have appeared since I last looked about a week ago. Suren do you not sleep? I find this whole communicative passage enthralling. I think that we all have stories to tell re. HCA's, money and personal dilemmas... I have a talent for dogged determination I am extremely interested in the involvement of the forum. I had plans to go to the RCN conference but my membership only came through today and I believe it is too late .... So I am interested to be physically involved. My MP has proved her incompetence (or incontinence as the preferred phrase should have it) what next? answers on a postcard please!!! oh yeah and; "up the revolution and all that!"
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 13:45:51 (BST)
Forum
thanks roger. So I understand that you are willing to head this forum and when art conference we should meet and kick start this. I will be meeting with Tim and if you want to join us for a round of golf on the Friday you are welcome to.....see u at conference,,,,,,,,
Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 05:41:15 (BST)
Passion, I meant passion
Damned fingers...
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:42:12 (BST)
Suren
Seems like an immensely good idea, as there is clearly a lot of passion out there. The next step is to encourage those whose voice is missing to contribute, those who I would describe as the silent majority.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:40:41 (BST)
FORUM
hi roger, seems like you have made some very valid points and seem to be well informed how about you heading this forum and lets kick start a network so all students can share and inform each other about their good experiences and bad ones.
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:10:21 (BST)
lets form a forum
it seems like there are lots of good points being made here. why not lets form a forum and address these points and lets try and better the bad situations and encourage the good ones. Lets network and share information and experiences good or bad. Now that there is so much been said how about some action now.. We have got the words.....LETS TURN TALK INTO ACTION.
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:07:39 (BST)
The pen is mightier than the sword
You posted while I was writing Linda, as a 35 year old I have found it chastening to have to grovel appropriately to the all powerful qualified staff whose every pen stroke could or would ruin me. Perhaps that is where the paranoia is coming from, an arcane and inane system that breeds not only contempt, but the contemptible
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:41:48 (BST)
The beauty of the web is that you can say what you want, how you want to and on your own terms. To anonymous colleagues I can understand why you want to stay that way, it is just a shame that we have a culture where you feel that need. No matter, keep your views flowing, they all add to debate and that is what the web is for.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:40:54 (BST)
Come on spaniel.
Dear Linda, Hope you haven't forgotten my request about the success of the RCN recently, I'm twitching with anticipation.
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:38:54 (BST)
Branching out?
With all the deference I can muster, it seems that the questions posed to Linda revolved around (or is it about) the great (or small) successes of the RCN? Now bear with me as I go out on a limb but... Did not the RCN suggest earlier this year that this is one of the worst recruiting crises? Is there not a chronic shortfall of qualified staff, matched only in ridicule by the distance that colleges are prepared to go to recruit (that is physical distance). So, what I am saying is, after all these successes, how can there be failure? We all love a tale of the old days, no-oneloves swinging the lantern more than I but....
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:38:07 (BST)
The truth is out there
to the most recent anonymous postee, I would ask you to join me in my recently established party "the paranoid tendency" but I am scared that if anyone else joins besides me they will hold a caucas meeting and form a breakaway party. Anyway more than one is a compromise
Linda B <linb121@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:36:02 (BST)
students post things anonymously the same way the 'love the ward' and are 'having a great time' and 'learning loads', because you never know....

- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:30:01 (BST)
An earlier anonymous (why?) post asked what I did in the eighties. The experiences Ray described in the seventies were very similar to my EN training in the early 80s. In my 7th month of nurse training after precisely 2 weeks of college learning bed making and thermometer washing I was left in charge of a gynaecology ward on nights with 2 auxiliaries. On the first night a woman arrived back on the ward at 10 pm following a total pelvic clearance, with 4 IVs, morphine pump and a Schwann Ganz Catheter in situ. The less than helpful SHO took five minutes to show me how to obtain a capillary wedge pressure by inflating a balloon sitting in her aorta (don't forget to release the syringe afterwards) before waltzing off. Needless to say she did not last the night. That pretty much set the scene for most of my EN training, and I could either leave or stay and try to change things for the better. So I stayed and I worked hard lobbying for the implementation of Project 2000 while doing my RGN training and degree, so that students afterwards received what I wanted, an education and not a training. I am aware that things have not worked out for a great number of students, so I am still working to change things for the better, but I stand by my earlier comments that if you really want to change things you can only do it from the inside, it is possible to join the establishment without signing up to. Well I am aware I have taken enough of your time so I am off now to try and find a twinset and pearls that fits.
Linda B <linb121@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:24:08 (BST)
I think roger raises some important points in this debate. I am rarely ambivalent, but on the HCA/RCN issue I really have not made up my mind. Part of me thinks that HCA's are just another part of a stressed workforce who work alongside RN's. But there is a danger, as roger says, that we recreate the SEN in a "modernised" form. The fact that the RCN seem to be pushing this is noteworthy!
ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:22:41 (BST)
My view
I am a student nurse and in my spare time I work as an HCA. I feel that HCA's should have a better understanding of what student nurses are there for. My experience as a student nurse is that all staff on the wards believe the have a certain job to do and HCA's feel threatened by students because they have progressed. Students on wards do not have a role to fit in to, either as an HCA or a staff nurse, we are in between, in limbo if you will. I think if HCA's had a better understanding of a student nurse role then we could all get along just fine. student nurses who are HCA's part time seem to show that understanding towards HCA's so why can't they?
Clare
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:21:01 (BST)
Suren
Suren, I think you have misunderstood me. I am not suggesting HCA's are the new 'ward manager'. I have exercised my rights as a supernumerary member of staff on many occasions and have had discussions with my link tutor, only to be told 'to get on with it'.This is not acceptable. Are you suggesting that we let ourselves be taken advantage of? I am aware of the concenquences by commenting on these issues online, however, it may encourage certain members of staff to reflect upon their own attitude next time they speak to a student, or any other member of staff. Don't you think that it's best that these issues are addressed so that they can be discussed and hopefully resolved? Since when did keeping quiet do anyone any good?

- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:59:44 (BST)
Who are we fighting for?
Some of the tone of the debate about HCA's has been of a less than objective nature. However, there is rarely smoke without fire and as some of these comments are made by student nurses, perhaps the other students should be considering the motives behind these comments? How is it that student nurses have come to feel so ill of the people that they work with? Whether or not people from other countries are required to work prior to their acceptance onto the register is a separate issue. If you choose to attempt to gain employment in another country, surely you will find yourself adhering to that country's rules? The same applies for British trained nurses attempting to work abroad. I believe it was Lord Shaftesbury who put an end to the forcible recruitment of persons from other cultures in the century before last, so surely there are few who can be surprised by what befalls them when attempting to gain employment here. The problem would seem to be that a proportion of qualified staff regard student nurses as glorified HCA's and then a further minority of HCA's seem to regard student nurses as something less than HCA's. This can result in very damaging experiences for student nurses, often on the busiest and least well managed wards where they are open to 'abuse'. During my training I can recall countless occassions when HCA's took the route of least resistance and allowed me to make up the difference, while the qualified staff seemed ambivalent about the whole thing. Equally I have the distinct privilege to work with some HCA's who have been without doubt peerless in the quality of the care they delivered. The fact of the matter is that there are good and bad in every walk of life. However, how is it that we see nursing so inextricably linked to the HCA role and yet so distinct from the other members of the multi-disciplinary team? It is curious that with many authorities delivering what amounts to ultimatums to their enrolled staff to convert; the same authorities are returning to programs of induction that seem characterised by if not the lowest common denominator, certainly a lower one. The proliferation of vocational training can be seen in theatres, where qualified staff are being replaced by ODP's and ODA's, whose training is quite distinctly NOT university based. It is however, characterised by substantially better renumeration during training and incremental remuneration as well. Not bad for a two year in house NVQ. Perhaps those student nurses who are finding life difficult either with or without a bursary should consider the option of leaving nursing for a better paid if not easier route to patient care? Given the tone of those who, if not espousing the party line, are certainly members of the party, it could be the best result. I cannot help but feel that there is a drive from the RCN's equivalent of Millbank to foster this vote upon the profession. I am sure that if it goes through that it will not affect many of the committee members or senior staff who might approve. Equally, I am sure that those responsible for the budget would be only to happy to see a cheaper alternative arrive, just as nursing pay starts to crawl into the late 1980's.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:55:37 (BST)
Ange
It seems like not you have made a "U" turn. Your tone and the manner you have written is totally different from what you are saying now. I am confused here are u saying that the HCAs are the ward managers, ward coordinator or sister in charge. I cannot understand how a HCA has the power to make you to do things that you do not want to do.. As a supernumerary u have the right to say no. why don't u exercise that right. Yes where I am majority of the HCAs are from the ethnic minority group. There are also qualified foreign nurses who are employed as HCA due to the policies of the UKCC and the government whereby if these qualified nurses do not come from the following countries: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hong Kong and South Africa will have to wait for six months before they are given full nursing status. So these HCAs are qualified nurse which obviously you are not aware of. Let me tell a story from RCN congress this year. There was a final year nursing student who said to her friends...."well I am graduating next month and when I am a staff nurse I will make life so difficult for students because I had a bad time as a student." Having people with this attitude makes life miserable for students like us. I hope now you have an understanding before attacking people online. Think how would you feel if the HCAs and staff nurses attacked you on their website and pages. Next time when u are in your placement think before you become judgmental about a persons behavior towards you. If this person is rude or gives you a hard time....it might just be that this person or hi/her colleagues has read your writings on this website. By comments like these on websites this does not do us any good, it does us more harm. If you have a problem at your placement...take it up with your link tutor or mentor....there are complaints procedures use them rather than attacking people whereby they are unable to defend themselves. What is happening here is a hate campaign being built up. So please stop this now before it gets out of hand and does more damage than good. ONCE AGAIN THIS IS MY PERSONAL VIEW AND NOT AS AN OFFICIAL. I AM A STUDENT AND I WANT TO REAP THE BENEFITS OF ALL PROFESSIONALS IN A WARD AND I AM NOT GOING TO LET THINGS LIKE THIS SPOIL WHAT COULD BE A VERY GOOD LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR ME. REMEMBER NURSES AND HCAs DO READ THESE PAGES. AFTER ALL I AM STUDYING TO BECOME A NURSE
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:48:08 (BST)
Pardon???
Suren, I feel I have to respond to your last mailing. When I sent the previous message regarding the attitude of certain HCA's, I was merely commenting on some of the encounters I had had with them - after all, this is meant to be where students can discuss current issues on the wards isn't it? I am aware that there is 'good and bad' in every grade of staff and that there are many HCA's out there who are worth their weight in gold - hence the expression 'some HCA's' in my message! You seem to be rather judgmental in your suggestion that many HCA's are from ethnic minorities. From what you write, one could be led to believe that you suggest we all dislike HCA's because of their culture. What utter rubbish. I merely have a problem with struggling to gain learning opportunities, when SOME HCA's think we are there to work for them. Yes, I have aired my views in a professional assertive manner on previous occasions and have acquired no respect at all from it. So, before you start suggesting that we end this 'petty hatred', try thinking a little deeper.
Ange
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:27:25 (BST)
TO JUST A THOUGHT
I think u are missing the point here. If we are going to adopt this petty hatred for HCAs and then separate ourselves from them and make them look like the enemy then we are going down the wrong path. The important point is that you have to accept that we are going to be working with them when we are qualified and we are going to work with them during placements. HCAs are here to stay. So instead of rubbishing them online. We live in a democratic society and we should give them a chance to defend themselves and I as a student and I speak as a student and not abusing my position, further more I only take office from October 2000 and not before that...i found them to be helpful courteous and very well informed. Take a step back and look from the outside into the inside of these things and you would see that not all of them are such horrible beasts as some of you make them to look out. How would you feel if you was a HCA and these people were writing these vile comments about you as a HCA. So before you go about HCA bashing....think very carefully what are you doing here alienating yourselves. Do you honestly believe that staff nurses and HCAs does not read these pages. Do you honestly believe that you are all saints. Well it seems like the reasons there is hostility is because of what people write on sites like these. You give them the reason to resent you because in the manner you all resent them and in the manner you attack them on this website. From my knowledge most HCAs are from the ethnic minority group. Is this a problem with them not being able to understand English due to English being their second or third language. I am working at the moment as a bank staff and most of the HCAs I am in contact with are from ethnic minority group....they are either from Africa or Philippines. Also not forgetting some of these people are qualified nurses in their country and the NHS has recruited them to work in the hospitals here. They got to work as HCA even though they are qualified nurses for six months before they are given full status. Are you aware of these factors. How would you feel if u was asked to go and work in their countries due to shortage of nurses, you have a degree in nursing and u was a sister on ward....u go there and they down grade you to HCA status for six months before you are recognised as a qualified nurse.....so please stop this bigotry and lets all work together for a better NHS.......after all when we qualify we are going to work with them in the wards....they are here to stay...and you will not get rid of them....so lets work together and respect each others points of view.....THIS STATEMENT IS A PERSONAL ONE AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY FUTURE ROLE WITHIN THE RCN AND I AM NOT ANTI STUDENT.....I AM VERY PRO STUDENT AND VERY MUCH IN FAVOUR FOR A BETTER DEAL FOR ALL STUDENTS......THIS IS JUST A PERONAL VIEW AND I FEEL THAT SOME OF THE REMARKS IS UNCALLED FOR AND AFTER ALL WE LIVE IN A MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY.
Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 21:20:08 (BST)
To the colleague who took the queens shilling let me say that before this, as a student in 1970, I was left in charge of wards at night and alone in mental health. I remember well being "expected" to remove sutures as a 2nd year, though nobody had ever taught me the practice or theory. In my general training I remember being left in charge of an acute medical ward at nights with 19 IV's to manage and many sick patients. Technically of course I was not in charge because a night nursing officer did rounds and was at the end of a bleep, but was usually busy with other priorities. I well remember being left with a young man dying with a degenerative condition and feeling his dread and fear, groping hopelessly for the best judgments I could make. I do not want to go back to that. We were salaried, though it was still a pittance. The RCN was not the only organisation that believed the future was in higher education, the majority of the profession and students at the time saw this as the way to go. I always worried that P2k would leave us possibly with the worst of both worlds and said so at the time in many articles. But I do not believe that a return to salaried status is the panacea that some would imagine. We must work for a decent deal for students, degree and diploma and ensure the quality of their experience in both the uni and the clinical placement. All unions, including the RCN and UNISON, have attempted to do their best by their members and the RCN was crucial in 1973 in registering stewards under the then labour relations act to protect the IR interests of members. This is a rich nation. If we can find £45 million for the bloody dome then it cannot be beyond our wit to properly fund the education of nursing students. The government are putting more into the NHS, the health unions must find some common ground and fight to ensure that a fair chunk of the new money goes towards education.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 20:46:25 (BST)
H.C.A's
I don't think that it is appropriate to use this page as a sounding board for students views on H.C.A's. As so many people have said, there are good and bad people in every sector of the health care hierarchy so I think that it should just be left at that. Yes, I know what it's like to work a shift when you are not treated as a valued member of the team but then it is up to the student nurse to be assertive and voice your position. You never know. You may even be respected for it.
Rosie <hiphopyoyang@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 20:45:22 (BST)
The future is bleak, and it is not orange
The Americans have had two qualifications for what would be called HCA's in place for some years now, Licensed Vocational Nurses and Licensed Practical Nurses. Both 'qualifications' are gained by attending short courses at what amount to night school. They are State Registered and are beginning to replace Qualified Nurses in a lot of care settings, particularly hospitals. In essence, they are the physical re-embodiment of what would have been called SEN's here but a few years ago. The Department of Health Consultation document 'A Health Service of all the Talents' describes the need to maximise contribution from all staff. It outlines the need to remove barriers that prevent the overlapping of roles and also emphasises the need for training to allow this to occur. In short it allows for the expansion of roles of nurses but by the same token allows for the expansion of the HCA's role. In America, the creation of Licensed Practical or Vocational Nurses (LPN/LVN), has created a template for generic health workers. The LPN/LVN's are able to cannulate, administer drugs, plan care, change dressings, take bloods and perform diagnostic tests, after only a one-year course. The fact that B grade HCA's in both Mental Health and Learning Disabilities settings, can administer medication under local protocols, suggests that nursing has surrendered its Holy Grail already. The drug round and the ceremony and deference attached to it, are the manifestation of that which separates those on the register, from those aspiring to it. The creation of a more homogenous healthcare professional by the Royal College of Physicians would seem to be the logical progression of the present trends, certainly in America, where physicians are among the first to promote the benefits of common training for allied healthcare professionals. The removal of rigidly demarcated roles and the evolution towards a common training program (The NHS Plan, 2000) that emphasises reciprocal respect for not just nurses and doctors but allied health professions has been mooted. The present Government has set targets for this to occur in the United Kingdom in the discussion document 'A Health Service of all the talents' workforce where the emphasis is on 'flexibility' of workforce and 'integration'. There seems to be stubbornness about accepting not only change but also more prosaically change that originates in America. However, given that so much of what is common practice now in the U.K. originated in the United States this seems at best facetious. The American model uses qualification as both the entry criteria into nursing and as a requisite for advancement within the profession. The existence of structured, moderated and recognised professional qualifications for nurses practising in advanced roles there for more than thirty-five years suggests that nursing in England could do worse than borrow some American ideas. Admittedly, some of these concepts are now appearing in the plans of Government, with the concept of higher practice being used as part of what is being described as a 'career trajectory' in 'Making a Difference'. However, it is worth noting that the first rung of the Government's proposed new ladder is the HCA. So, go ahead and vote for the HCA's to join our merry band, but at the same time remember the date. It will be the day nursing gives away it's future for the price of appearing egalitarian. It is noticeable that those that argue so vehemently against a return to employee status for Student Nurses, asserting that it will be retrograde to disassociate the profession from higher education; are some of those who would welcome vocational qualifications with open arms. If familiarity breeds contempt, then I can think of no better example.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:51:09 (BST)
A bone for the continent spaniel.
Linda B, I noticed in your posting that you could argue the RCN's corner successfully but wouldn't because you thought that it "could take a lot of everyone's time". Well, you certainly wouldn't be wasting my time and I am sure that there are a lot of people who visit this web site that would love to hear of the RCN's success in improving the lot of nurse's (student or qualified). Thanks to the RCN's success large numbers of students are still dropping out of the course and those that do finish are qualifying with substantial financial debts. I hope that you do take the "TIME" to reply, if it's not too much trouble.
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:07:17 (BST)
Just a thaught...
Whilst I accept that in any group of people there are good and bad, I feel that I may have to draw Suren's attention to one small point. He has NOT been elected to represent the viewpoints of HCA's. It strikes me as a bit rich to come onto a STUDENT website as an elected STUDENT representative and critisise Students. Perhaps Suren should dedicate more of his time to actually trying to achieve those things that students actually need instead of painting wonderful word pictures of our sainted HCA colleagues. Also does anyone know why the RCN is so keen to push for HCA's to become part of it? Perhaps the reason may not be as they say to offer membership to a wider section of Nursing for the benefit of nursing, but maybe the financial reward of having so many more members may just explain why the RCN is so keen to push for a yes vote. Who knows perhaps if the vote is yes Christine Hancock will get another pay rise, she obviously needs it, i mean she only earns £84,000, its not alot is it?
dissatisfied of 'Tunbridge Wells'
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:57:42 (BST)
Linda I'll tell you a story, and you can tell me what you did at the same time. When I left sixth form, my mate and I took the Queen's shilling; he in the Royal Marines, I myself went after the Queen's Commission in Her Britannic Majesty's Land Army. Some of it was crap and a lot of it was repetitive, hills, rucksacks, and rifles. One of our best friends went to be a nurse, bless her. We would go and visit her and her friends for leave. The talk was always of poor pay and conditions on and off the wards. Students being given the offensive smelling end of the stick by uncaring and exploitative staff, no one cared or argued their corner. In fact nursing seemed hard done by with poor pay and conditions the order of the day. Margaret Thatcher was busy giving us lovely big pay rises and had just let the lads off the leash in the sun-drenched Falklands. She was also just starting to put her foot across the throat of nursing, where she kept it for quite a while. That was all a long time ago, back in the eighties. So Linda, nurses and nursing students are still badly paid given the fact that it is now a University based course, students still complain of poor treatment at the hands of unscrupulous nurse managers. Young men and women still take the Queen's shilling, and they still get paid more than nurses, despite the 'efforts' of the RCN. My mate is qualified and working in Australia, fed up of the treatment, she and a fair few of her friends jacked nursing in. So what were you doing during the time this story took place?

- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:39:30 (BST)
WE NEED MORE
OK there are now petitions at Huddersfield and kings college. Even if you think you can only get a few they all count. If you want one mail me
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:34:06 (BST)
More about HCA's..............
From reading the last few messages, I have been able to emphasise with the number of students complaining about the attitude of HCA's towards them. On many occasions I have had encounters with HCA's who seem to presume that we are an extra pair of hands to assist them, while they themselves catch up on all the latest gossip in the kitchen. I have had endless 'dirty looks' just because I am working with a staff nurse or joining in on the ward round. Obviously, some HCA's have not read their job description properly! What annoys me is if we complain we are branded a trouble maker and receive a poor report on completion of the placement. Is it any wonder so many students are leaving their training when this, amongst other factors, is what we have to put up with - all for the luxury of £2.60 an hour!
Ange
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 17:25:32 (BST)
hca's
my message was meant to point out that people have their own stuff, not necessarily aimed at those around them at work..a viewpoint gained from perhaps being older and more used to this! Im not having a go at anyone..i try and remain objective or else id go mental so i agree lets not climb aboard a vindictive bandwagon..there are problems that we all need to work out and resolve! Whew what a vitriolic site.. could out you off altogether!!!
jo lee
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 14:28:32 (BST)
HCA
why is it always it everybody elses fault than the students? i have been talking to people and there is always going to be good and bad practioners either as HCA, Staff Nurse and Students. i had a rather interesting chat with a ward manager two nites ago. this person informed me about students who are placed in the ward just will not take part in any form for nursing care. they are invited to observe and ask questions on the ward which they refuse to do because they are supernumery. they were absolutely rude to the HCAs. when they did speak to them, they spoke down to them and also was insulting. so please not all HCAs are as horrendous as soem of these people make them out to be. Have any of you thought about treating them with respect as you are demanding from them. from my expereince with HCAs i found them to be polite and very hard working people. I found them to be well informed and trained in their field and that they are relied upon by the qualified nursing staff to provide the care where the nursing staff cannot. so stop this bigotry and negativity. lets be united and lest work together rather than being petty and vindictive. yes there are some very bad HCAs who are arrogant and rude. bu also there are very arrogant and rude students as well. i have come across quite a few in my class at university and also through bank jobs and placement. this is a two way traffic here. TREAT PEOPLE LIKE THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED. FOR EVERY FINGER U POINT ....U HAVE THREE POINTING AT YOURSELF......SO PLEASE STOP THIS BIGOTRY AND LEST BE UNITED AND WORK TOGETHER
Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 06:54:56 (BST)
Re: HCA's attitdes to student nurses
as a student nurse, who was a HCA for 9 yrs prior to doing my training, this subject makes my blood boil, this phenonama is all to frequent, both with myself and my colleagues. i have worked with HCA,s who have a lot in common with Hitler. I have watched my fellow student friends complain and have horendous placements because of this. at the end of the day, 'your only a student' and this sort of attitude seems to prevail on a lot of the wards that i have been on. alls i can say is, to these particular hitler style HCA's is that they are a disgrace to their profession, and one day my time will come! as for the jealousy they portray, they should count themselves lucky. at least now, trusts are seconding them and paying them their wages...unlike us...who have to survive on a meagre bursary. if they want to be a nurse , they can no longer use the excuse of pay to stop them doing so. i have to say however, i have worked with some brilliant HCA's who are an asset to their ward and who have helped me no end.
sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 01:27:35 (BST)
UNITY IS STRENGTH
wow......lets use this energy campaigning for a better deal than having a go at each other. we cannot afford to have this divide amongst ourselves. lets respect each others views and unite for one purpose to get a better increase for our bursary and grant. lets campaign for a better and eqaul curriculum. these are the things we should be looking rather than having a go at each other. lets unite and stay united. after all it is our future is at stake. suren suku
Suren Suku <M1ser@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 00:28:05 (BST)
Reply from Continent Spaniel
I have been following the messages here with interest and was amused at Roger's description of the RCN as an incontinent spaniel. I currently sit on the RCN Council representing nurses in South Thames & London and could take a lot of everyone's time arguing the RCN corner (successfully) but I won't. Instead the advice for anyone who wants advice is that if you really want to change something you change it from the inside, or walk away. Yours in unity Linda B
Linda B <linb121@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 23:54:16 (BST)
What the hell are we doing?????
I have now just read the last few messages. Iam appaled WE SHOULD NOT BE ARGUING WE SHOULD BE WORKING TOGETHER. we all know what it is like as one other message said UNITED WE STAND,DIVIDED WE FALL
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 18:51:35 (BST)
Thank you
Ok there are petitions now going in Du Mont uni (Leicester), Chiterns (Bucks), Central Lancs uni, and south bank And a few of these are going to RCN conference Ray Rowden (running for Pres.) is also taking on too. Please if you are attending hunt them down and ask to sign. I can't attend (suprise, suprise because I can't afford to )so please give this issue as much Publicity as you can. We need to start to fight for this if we are going to get any where. Thanks again to those who have signed up for petitions but the more we get the better Angela Smith Robert Gordons Uni ( Aberdeen)
Angela smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 18:35:24 (BST)
hca attitudes
Been there done that! It happens all too frequently..i try and remember that they probably regret not having done the training and are disillusioned! Some are ace and help more than the nurses..but there are exceptions to every rule! I try and bear in mind that they have their own agendas and its not me they are picking on! Sometimes i have to go bite on a brick but so far so good LOL good luck.
jo lee
- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 15:27:02 (BST)
ps
And I work 16 hours a week on top of that!!

- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 15:13:51 (BST)
HCA attitudes towards student nurses
why oh why do we get a handful of HCA's, when we are on placement, who seem to think that we are there to make there job easier????? I am on my first 4 week placement which has been fantastic, all the staff have been very helpful and I have learnt lots to assist me in my assignment, but there are certain HCA's who treat us like idiots who they can boss around. Their attitude seems to be "why are you with the trained staff instead of doing the dirty work with us?" Well, we don't mind digging in and getting on with it but we have certain criteria to fill to meet assignment needs which doesn't include washing and dressing and it's about time that they were made to realise that we are super numary. Another attitude that I have encountered is the 'how come I couldn't get in to do my training?' or 'Some of us haven't got time to go to college' or 'I can't afford it'. Well to all you HCA's out there, neither can I afford it, I'm 35 and single with 2 children to keep and I got off my butt and took my daughter to college with me on the bus every day to get me where I am, so I suggest you all button it.

- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 15:00:41 (BST)
REVOLUTION
START YOUR OWN REVOLUTION AND CUT OUT THE MIDDLE MAN. REMEMBER THE REVOLUTION IS JUST A T SHIRT AWAY. (apparently)

- Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 14:30:07 (BST)
stuff
Just curious if anyone else seen the 'small' but significant article in todays (London) Metro (and I presume Evening Standard) re: students being left in charge of critically Ill clients unsupervised... I am glad to see the so called 'supernumery' status being in the public domain as well as our little one. They also mentioned that we get £2.60 an hour, nice to know they all know that too! Just thought I would mention it, might lift the tension from this page for a few seconds and, perhaps, make us all wake up to the fact that it is getting the public behind us - not the government - that will get us somewhere in our quest!
Claire <ClaireMacL@aol.com>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 23:35:37 (BST)
Black Report
Hello Angela, I have a spare copy of the black report. If u still need it please email me a postal address and I will send it to you. I also got the Acheson report which is very good and it is the follow up to the black report. You may borrow both the books and would appreciate it if you can return them once u are finished with them.. suren suku
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 23:13:22 (BST)
Too quick to Judge...
Firstly i would like to apologise to any Qualified members of Staff who were upset by the generalised comments that i made. I wrote them after a particularly hard shift (both physically and emotionally). I realise that not all Staff Nurses are intent on exploiting Students. I realise that out there, there are Nurses who work very hard to ensure that Students who are on placement enjoy them and recieve all the support and teaching that they need. However i was refering to the 'Status Quo' (and i dont mean the aging rock band either!) that exists on the wards today. Students are exploited, often not wittingly on a local level by ward managers, who themselves are under a huge amount of pressure, but they are exploited none the less. I am working on a ward where the Ward manager admits that she uses students to make up the sadly depleted numbers. I have worked six weekends from a possible eight basically because i am a cheap form of labour. That is exploitation. There needs to be a radical overhaul in the way that Students are funded through their training, whether it be through an increased bursary or through the return to employee status i do not know.(That is a decision for greater minds than mine to make!) All i do know is that as far as i am concerned when i came into nursing, i never realised that i had given up the right to a life. As they say Strength through Unity. Cheers
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 21:07:21 (BST)
Obviously dim...
I have to admit defeat, but for me it was not the endless drudgery of the last few shifts, but the mental drudgery of the responses I have garnered. I find it hard to understand how when I originally wrote an 'open' letter to Suren, it started by saying that I did not characterise him as an enemy of student nurses. The next thing I worote was in reply to his 'personal' message and it stated that he was probably a excellent nurse-to-be and a fine human being. I have obviously misjudged him terribly and would glady retract those assertations about him. If he cannot grasp the relatively simple premise that I am attacking the RCN with its "incontinent Spaniel"-like history of public sector pay-bargaining AND NOT HIM AS A PERSON, then the theatre of politics or even quasi-politics might prove more than a little wounding to him. What I have said has been largely that the RCN, though I am a member, has been crap over the years. I remember it's ineffectual dealings with the Tories over the years. I regard Unison as being a bit far removed from purely the nursing cause. So what I am saying is more unity less dissention, less feelings of intimidation, less concern about geographical location (but an appreciation of the differences) and a few questions about how much Christine Hancock earns and how many patients benefit from that... I hate the good old justifications that we have again seen, "It was like that in my day" and the infinitely disappointing "We gave up trying to change that". These are some of the things that have got us (nursing) in the situation that we now have. Falling numbers, sickness and absenteeism are not usually regarded as a good sign... So that is my point, sorry to sound wounded, anyone who knows me would be happy to vouch for the fact that I have skin like a Rhino and manners to boot.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 19:31:00 (BST)
united we stand
It has been quite a while since i visited this website. I have to admit i had almost given up hope that anyone was interested in trying to fight for more money for student nurses. The "march on the capital" is a fantastic idea, the advantages being phenomenal, but the disadvantages being - unity, The amount of work we student nurses have to do. I helped in the angel of the north campaign and i could not believe how few students were interested. All this apathy really gets me down, but returning to this web site has made me want to continue the struggle for a decent waage/bursary whatever. I do not think it matters whether we do a degree a diploma, whether we are unison or rcn. Maybe this division is a trick of the government enabling us to squabble and not get our acts together! (i am not really cynical(not good at spelling either)). If there is anything i can do to help this campaign please tell me. I am a desperate single mother struggling - like we all are on this pittance... please accept my apologies if you think i have ranted on too much. i hope no-one has been offended.
anne-marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 15:29:34 (BST)
Response to Kris
I found this site as I was looking through the Thornbury website. As a qualified nurse who has been prctising for 12 years I urge you not to give up with only 5 months to go. As a qualified nurse I should feel guilty for your plight but I dont personally.......sorry! Please dont hold, waht will soon be, your colleagues to ransome for conditions on the wards! I bet the Sister doing the off duty with no staff is having sleepless nights too and want ing to jack it all in. I cant promise it will get better as it may not, but I'm sure it wont get worse. There is more to life as a nurse than ward work, there is a whole world out there and with your qualification you can go out and explore it. I have nmanaged to avoid working on the wards for 12 years, but have worked within the hospital environment and have done all I can to educate, stimulate and encourage the students I have worked with. Most of my colleagues wanted to support the student nurses anyway we could however we couldnt change it from the top only make things more comfortable at ground level. What happens at government level we cannot change straight away, but we can keep chipping away until there is no firm base for them to ground their prepostourous ideas of burseries and the likes on! Dont blame us all and please dont tar all 'qualified nurses' with the same brush. You know the old saying 'united we stand, divided we fall'.
India
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:57:47 (BST)
Am I missing something here.
I've tried to read through the postings and follow the plot..........the main gist I have grasped 'student nurses and Qualified nurse are undervalued and have had enough'..............good on you all those who have the get up and go to get some changes made. Could someone please tell me what has got 'Rogers' back up,..............he seems to think that all the postings are digging at him. I hope you are training to be a psychiatric nurse so that help is close at hand for that paranoid state of mind you are experiencing. Ray if you could help students that would be brilliant but please ensure that things are equally as tolerable for when we qualify, Nursing needs all the help it can get.
Stubsy <Stubbsj2000@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:42:51 (BST)
I thought you might like to know that Chris Watson, current RCN Prez has written a letter to the Nursing Times, in response to my Arena column last week. I am accused of being "out of touch" with the Rcn, the use of new technology being an example. The story goes that the Rcn has a website, so all is wonderful. A visit will show that apart from students, the facility is not widely promoted or used. Virtually no branches are on line, and few membership forums are using the facility. You might also be amused to learn that the Press page on the Rcn site had no updated info for months. It is so awful they have pulled it off. I am told this was due to technical glitches and that it will be up and running in two weeks. Takes months to realise there is a problem and two weeks to rectify it, fast or what? Who, I wonder, is out of touch?
ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:13:51 (BST)
ANS CONFERENCE
To all students if u can make the trip to the conference please do so. fill in those questionnaires. we need them so we can use that in our campaigns and also as form of data. so please fill them in and send them to us......if anyone needs those questionnaires email me and i will send them to you. suren suku
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 23:43:23 (BST)
to all nursing students
i am very much aware that when someone takes place of office within any organisation is subjected to good constructive criticism. as i mentioned i am the incoming student member of council. i only take office from the 18 october 2000. i am trying to reach out and see what the feelings are amongst nursing students within the united kingdom. i am aware the problems faced varies from region to region. i am trying to understand the hardships and the manner students irrespective of degree or diploma, first year or final year. i am here to represent all of you and not just the south where i am based. i am willing to travel within reason and meet students to discuss their problems and take this to the meetings i will be attending on their behalf and put their points as strongly as i can and also negotiate a good deal all round. friends i do not want to say what i can do and what i am going to do. but i do know that my actions will speak louder than words. i have already tackled lots of issues in regards to student funding and also made some alternative suggestions to the RCN and the Grants Unit in Blackpool. when i am in office i am going to arrange meetings with various people who are responsible for student funding and bursaries. i am also campaigning to drop off vat on all study materials and student related items. all i am asking give me a chance and not knock me off before i even took office. the email i sent to Roger Obermaier was a personal issue and not a public one. i had that choice of responding to him on the website but i chose not to be offensive and treat him in the manner he has treated me. i respect peoples views and opinions and i would expect the same in return. roger give me a chance and if by christmas you do not see any difference then u are welcome to question me and criticise me. as long as i have not taken office please keep your criticisms till then. i am open minded and i am very much in touch with things that is happening in the wards. Friends, i have spoken with Ray Rowden. our discussions was very student oreintated and we discussed about the financial burdens and also about placements. when ray is elected he and i hopefully will work together to get a better and fair deal for all of us. he definitely and is genuine about student affairs. he would support us on the increase we deserve and also compensation for weekend work and night shifts. lets all unite and work together in partnership rather than attack each other. PLEASE GIVE ME A CHANCE ..... I HAVE NOT YET TAKEN OFFICE.....SUPPORT ME AND I WILL DO MY BEST FOR ALL OF YOU.......NURSES AND NURSING STUDENTS. suren suku
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 23:37:29 (BST)
Don't give up!
In response to Kris Nicol, I'm sorry to hear about your current dilemma. However, nursing needs people like you who are up to date of the current issues and who are prepared to do something about it. Why should you give up your career when you've only got 5 mths left? Don't let them beat you. At least when you qualify, you will be able to emphasise with students which will help to stamp out the abuse of their status.
Ange
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:52:12 (BST)
RCN Election
Dear All. As a nurse of some years standing, I am supporting Ray as someone who has the decency to speak out for nurses especially on the NHS Plan. I am somewhat pround to be a nurse, yet feel I am being designed as a 'doctors' lacky' OK I intubate cannualte etc, aall the skills that make me fashionalble, but I too, want to see pay, conditions and professionalism on the TOP of the agenda. If you want to know what I am referring to, go to Ray's webiste on http://come.to/ray-rowden and read the Students, manifesto and Agenda Page: then decide and spread the word, there are alot of nurses NOT voting, come on: give them an incentive. G
Gerry Bolger <gmb@dircon.co.uk>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:25:21 (BST)
Exploited again
Well there it is a perfect example of just how 'valuable' a commodity student nurses are. Have just finished a late shift on a busy vascular surgery ward. Number of patients 22, Number of people on Shift 4, Number of Students 2. Out of 4 staff on the late shift 2 were students. The other two were me a third year student and my colleague also a third year student. When will the exploitation of student nurses stop? When will we be seen as more than just a short term solution to Nursings chronic staff shortages? When will i as a student Nurse actually be able to learn or practice some of the skills that i will need to be a staff Nurse (apart from bed making and taking people to the toilet). I qualify in less than 5 months and i have done one drug round in EIGHT weeks. Well its not as if i will need to know how to give medication when im actually a staff nurse now will it? So Thanks to the situation of poor staffing and inadequate reward im actually thinking of quitting Nursing. Why should i continue to break my back for no reward. Its not even as if im learning anything.. All you qualified staff out there who may be reading this i hope your happy. You and others like you have allowed the exploitation of Students to continue and have driven this Student to consider a change in career. Anyone know the number of the Local Mcdonalds... I hear the pay is better there!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:13:41 (BST)
For general consumption
WHEN YOU TAKE ON A ROLE, YOU ASSUME THE MANTLE OF THAT POSITION. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE LIKE THE PRIME MINISTER ATTRACT CRITICISM, IT IS NOT DESIGNED AS A PERSONAL ATTACK. IF YOU ELECT TO STAND FOR OFFICE, YOU CAN EXPECT CRITICISM. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT SUREN IS BOTH AN EXCELLENT NURSE-TO-BE AND A FINE HUMAN BEING, BUT NEITHER OF THESE THINGS MEAN THAT THE R.C.N. WILL MANAGE TO SECURE STUDENT NURSES BETTER CONDITIONS. THIS IS WHAT HE SENT TO ME ======================================================================================i am disappointed that you wrote to me in that manner. if you are looking for ten minutes of fame you have got it. if you read my posting it states very clearly that i am willing to listen to any one irrespective of their postcodes ie. everyone with the uk. snide remarks and attacks like these would not unite us. but just cause a greater divide. before you go on speaking gibberish....next time think and read and understand what is written rather than have pock shots with no substance. it is people like you who are dangerous and not good for our campaign. by the way english is not my first language and further more i am very much in touch with students and the hardships they are facing and i am constantly inviting students to email me and talk to me so i can be aware of what is happening. so stop this tirade and get real...use the energy more profitably rather than making personal attacks with no substance. god bless and kind regards suren
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:05:32 (BST)
Once again thank you to all those who have asked for petitions please keep Mailing me we need as many signatures as we can. There are a lot of people who have expressed opinions about making a difference but these people seem very unwilling to put in the time. I finish in six months I have essays to do and placements and I'm trying to work as well. I find the time to do what I believe in these people should do the same. I started the same debate on the RCN student forum and there are some members who actually are disagreeing if we want to make a change then we have to stand together.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:54:17 (BST)
Matt, thanks for the welcome, but I am not an "Rcn top dog" yet, I have got to win an election! Keep the ideas flowing and if I win we will have a drink with Brother Abberley at UNISON and bend his ear Ray
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:13:22 (BST)
don't lose the plot
I thought we were supposed to be united at last...who cares where you both live, you both have the same problem, you're not getting enough money whilst you're training. I'm a student in Sheffield where the public transport is excellent and relatively cheap, and I'm still skint. By the way Ray, nice to see an RCN top dog wanting to join forces with unison on the bursary situation.
Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 17:30:06 (BST)
oh, I see
Jan try communting 60 miles a day at your own expense including parking and depreciation and then have a long, hard look at your tube ticket. I am not some country ocker, I have lived in 'town' and am only here in the 'country, for my course. Please try and resist the temptation to be to precious about our beloved capital, but it does have rather more infrastructure than the average market town....
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 13:09:16 (BST)
What!
Roger mate........are you mad!! What planet are you doing your training on! Enlighten me mate, 'relatively cheap public transport'.........have you been on the Tube lately! When its running that is! and the 'part time job market'......fine if you can beat the typical 'Antipodean' backpacker to the bar work!.....I think not! However all the other points you make a valid and worth a read.....just try and get rid of the 'I'm not studying in London' chip off your shoulder before it starts to weigh you down.
Jan
- Monday, September 04, 2000 at 10:54:36 (BST)
Student Funding
I think i am being misunderstood here. I am willing to listen to all students in reagrds to their hardships on the following matters: 01. bursary and grants 02. accomodation 03. travelling 04. textbooks in libraries 05. link tutors and placements 06. problems with lecturers and university 07. financial hardships. this applies to all Nursing Studenst in the uk not only in London. I MEAN ALL STUDENTS.
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:54:32 (BST)
Time to clear the air.
With the RCN students congress drawing closer it would seem that the air is getting a little thick with the causes of our financial hardship. At the end of the day if students are working weekends and night shifts they should be paid accordingly, at least the same as the senior HCA also working that shift. I for one am not bothered whether it comes by an increase in the bursary (as long as all students across the country are rostered and not supernumary) or whether we receive employee status in our 3rd year by which we could all expect to be working these shifts. The why's and the wherefore's are of little consequence this late in the day, we need to be paid for the work that we do and it needs to be an amount that reflects our worth. How many wards rely on students as another "pair of hands" to get the days workload done? Some areas are using student nurses to staff their wards at the weekends to keep their staffing costs down. It's not on. It's got to stop. The powers above in the organisations that are supposed to represent student nurses have got to put more pressure on the people who hold the purse strings. In fact, Christine Hancock if your reading this what are you doing to help us? You represent me and thousands of others, but I don't hear or read anything that convinces me that you are "making the stand". Why not? I, as I'm sure many others will be waiting to hear your response at the conference. If any of you out there are part of the "flowery, there's nothing wrong in nursing" fraternity who think that your cliques will run this conference well, let's wait and see!!!
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:46:58 (BST)
Make A difference
I'm still looking for people to do petitions (especially in scotland) Please when you mail me can you let me know whay uni you are at Thank you to those who have come forward so far
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:33:46 (BST)
addendum
Suku, in reply to your 'statement', it is not that I regard you as an enemy of student nursing... It is just that the RCN has a long and inglorious history of ineffectual bargaining for QUALIFIED NURSES, let alone students! It is only as a result of good old uncle Tony that they got a pay rise, certainly not the timid pawing of the incontinent Spaniel of public sector pay-bargaining. The Conference this year was attended by one of my best friends who was forced into barracking 'the sainted Hancock', as the question of student conditions was not worthy of debate. Traning in London with its large and relatively cheap transort system, libraries and massive part-time job market must be different. The more rustic colleges are hardly scenes of bucolic bliss but issues such as mileage allowance are of vast import to people now forced to pay for the privelage of driving 30 miles to college. I am not saying you are 'out of touch', but perhaps with a little over a week to the next conference, you need to 'get in touch'. As has been said here before, the Irish nurses achieved more in 72 hours when they threatened strike action than they had in years of worthless dialogue. Over to you, prove the cynic in me wrong!
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:28:32 (BST)
anyone know a good lawyer?
Just a thought, if anyone does know a good contract lawyer then it might be worth asking them if they think that we have a contract with the hospitals we train in. I am basing this on the contract law and employment law that I studied, but that was more than a while ago... The premise is that I think that we might have a basis for saying that we have an 'Implied Contract', by virtue of the actions of both parties. Both sides gain 'satisfaction' from the arrangement (that is the legal term, not necessarily the emotional term), the hospitals get labour and students get money. I think that given my experience I would be more than happy to argue that the level of on-ward training is so poor, that it hardly qualifies the discription. This said we could argue that the 'work' that we do is of an equal standard to that performed by the auxiliary staff and should attract similar renumeration. Any ideas?
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 23:13:27 (BST)
Student Funding
Dear Nursing Students, I do not want to sound patronising but I am very aware that there is a huge problem in regards to our Bursaries and Grants. I am the incoming Student Member of Council at the RCN. I am willing to listen to all of your problems encountered during your placements, lectures and mainly in regards to MONEY. Yes i am aware that there are different methods of payment and also am aware that there is no parity in payment of these grants and bursaries. As Student Member of Council I am going to try my best and get that parity and also the increase which is reasonable and fair to all of us. At the moment there is a divide as to whether we should be salaried or stay on bursary. My view on this is if nursing students are going to be rostered and made to work on weekend and nite shifts. They should be paid for that time worked. I would campaign for this extra payment and uniformity through out the country in regards to placements and supernumery status. It seems each region have their own definition to this and also it si important to have this uniformity. At the moment students are still doing their placements whereby they should be on holiday. Students have to sign atendance registers. If they are continuosly absent then they will lose part of their bursaries and grants. I am saying no to this. i am saying we should be heard and we should be given a fair infaltion related bursary and grant. I am saying lets be united irrespect of where and what post code you live in. Through unity and an orderly campaign we would win this increase. We got to be united on all issues and respect other people's points of view. At the moment we do not have that unity. I am willing to listen and talk to anyone and discuss their issues with an open mind. I would present their suggestions to the necessary departments. Please all those of you can attend the conference please be there. This is your chance to make the difference and changes for Nursing Students. This is your chance to voice your opinions, anger and hardships at this conference. It is your conference. So lets make the best of it and lets negotiate a better deal for our future. Good luck and a safe trip to the conference. See you all there. Suren Suku Student Steward Southbank University
Suren Suku <Suku@btinternet.com>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 21:58:00 (BST)
Student agenda
As a candidate for Rcn President it has been invaluable to read this site. It seems to me that all students, degree or diploma are getting a bad deal. It is daft that the Rcn and Unison are not getting their act together. Salary, bursary, grant, whatever, it is clear that the current situation cannot go on. You can have unity in the student community, if elected as Rcn President I will do all I can to support that unity and fight for a fairer deal for ALL nursing students. I will not set that agenda, I will listen to you so that you can set it. Don't fight each other, fight a bloody awful system which leaves you with grief. Ray Rowde.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 21:08:06 (BST)
Unite and Fight (for your Rights!)
As student Nurses we must Unite and become more politically aware. For too long we have allowed others to set the agenda for our debates. We MUST NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN ANY MORE. The issue of degree vs diploma and who suffers more is an especially devicive one and we as a student body should bypass this debate and concentrate on what matters. We need to unite behind the banner of Nursing Students first and formost. We all do the same job, we all suffer the same chronic shortage of support, so isnt it about timew that we all stood together? No matter what your political persuasion, no matter what your union we should stand together and start to campaign for fairer conditions. We need to be paid more. We need to have a nationwide policy on what students can and cant be asked to do. But nothing will be achieved if we militate against each other. The only way to achieve anything will be to unite.The time has come, the seeds of the Student nursing revoloution have been sown WE MUST UNITE AND FIGHT. VIVE LA REVOLOUTION!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 20:02:43 (BST)
IA funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
I WROTE TO RAY AND POSED A FEW QUESTIONS WITH A NURSING STUDENT ASPECT, AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID. I WILL SAY THAT I HAVE VOTED FOR HIM, ANYTHING THAT CHANGES THE PRESENT SITUATION WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT. Roger, thanks for you email, appreciated. Could you email as many colleagues as poss with details of my website at http://come.to/ray-rowden students are on line more than some and every vote will count. If I win I intend putting student bursaries/grants high up the agenda thanks Ray
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 20:01:00 (BST)
spelling
ok i mean LA REVOLUTION!!! degree training dont aid spelling either LOL One more comment - as has been said noone on the ward cares how we trained , just that we offer good care and expertise..lets bear that in mind when prejudices kick in ..i for one find that motivating if nothing else! Take care people!
jo lee <additonal>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:29:41 (BST)
nursing divide -supposed!
Good to see some unity at last! Almost scared to admit im a degree student nurse BUT there you go i ended up on it and am making the best of it as i go! We are on seperate campuses to diploma students which makes liasion hard, and opinions biased. The uni doesnt help with this problem and have been criticised in recent audit for the same. On placements we do however get together and support each other in the main and really learn despite barriers imposed. We should ALL get a better deal in training and in post.. no more bickering amongst ourselves and lets get some unity and action going ! Glad this site is here to help us do just that. As has been said VIVE LE REVOLUTION!
jo lee <jo@kunchai.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:25:46 (BST)
hurray! hurray! hurray!
well I am so absolutely bloody happy that so many people have expressed their anger at the money situation. I am evevn more pleased to see so many people tell Mr. pimmion the pillock miester where to stick it....I live in a very wealthy county and I have decided that I cannot take watching the wealthy mincing about unaware of the problems that the nursing staff have to endure in trying to train..I have written to My MP and I am composing an article to the local press and hopefully then the national press. I am e mailing you Angela, do you need any help?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 13:40:43 (BST)
workers of the world......
Why is it that even Student Nurses cannot achieve a degree of unity? Sorry I used the word degree, I do not wish to favour or slur either party, given the degree of inane infighting (oops, did it again). As a diploma studen I have the utmost respect for Degree students and empathise with them on the poverty front. Ten years on I am STILL paying student loans off from previous courses. I am curious why that when the diploma students who contribute here all seem to express support for the degree students,we still see letters stating how much harder it is being a degree student, from degree students? What do we champagne charley diploma students need to do to show that we understand? Perhaps if the degree students wrote to their local MP as voceferously as they write here, seemingly against diploma students, they would soon be richer. It is a shame, at my college we have no degree students, they are at a seperate campus. Neither party seem keen to interact, each being dubious about the other. It all seems a little churlish and pedantic. Perhaps a little UNITY would not go amiss, after all, when you qualify, unless you insist on one of the tragic enamel badges (I have one somewhere that says "Swimming Captain"), no one will no what qualification you studied. The only thing they will see is a nurse....
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 23:57:25 (BST)
Petitions
I have alredy got a petition going that I hope to take to both the scottish parliament and westminster anyone interested in doing the petition in their uni. Please E-mail me and I will send them a copy we have to have our voices heard and this is one in along line of events I hope to have in the near future. VIVE LA REVOLUTION
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 19:25:12 (BST)
I'd like to reply to something christine said. I think both degree and diploma students should recieve the same amount of money. We should be standing together and fighting for better pay for all.
angela smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 19:19:08 (BST)
HELP............
Please can anyone help me? I am an 18yr old student currently studying an Advanced GNVQ in Health and Social care.I am extremly interested in continuing my educational carer,training to become an adult nurse...However i am having problems finding colleges in the London or Leicester..If you attend a college in these areas please could you mail me information about the types of courses, entry requirements and what the colleges as a place is like..and if possible a contact number.All help is appricated, thank you very much for your time.
Lucy Bull <LRAB24@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 14:36:00 (BST)
divided we fall...
I have noted with some optimism the current increase in, dare I say it militism amongst the student nursing body. I think that so many of the people who train are jaded by the time they hit the wards at qualification. Many are seriously in debt and with the current staffing problems added to the pervading sense of gloom, it is no wonder numbers continue to fall. I am (hopefully) scant months from qualifying but it seems that the situation for student nurses worsens at every turn. One of my good friends who I shared with in residences, qualified two years ahead of me. He barely worked a single weekend and not more than a week of nights in his final year. Those halycon days seem long lost and present practices seem purely exploitive, we are quite simply cheap labour. Those of you of a Pemmin-istic nature try and resist the temptation to tell me that I am talking out of my hat. What ALL of nursing is crying out for is unity. I am not sure that either the RCN or UNISON are really concerened with nurses, one being a political lap-dog (and I am a member) and the other being somewhat dilute or diffuse in it representation. Perhaps then the students who I hear in seminars and the people whose opinions I read, in forums such as these, feel the same. Perhaps, rather than trying to make our voices heard above either the polite grovelling of the RCN or the more strident sound of UNISON, we should be speaking for ourselves. I know the NUS is keen to involve student nurses more, perhaps our salvation does belong with the Union which we are all afilliated to. I would like to say that we should "strike while the iron is hot", but I know how 'that' word makes some fret...
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 01:06:02 (BST)
elective placements?
I have recently found out that our elective placements have been 'scrapped'! I am an April '98' student just starting module 9, throughout the course we all look forward to elective placements. I'm studying at the Thames Valley University in Slough. I have taken this up with our placements manager, and he told me that it does not state anywhere in the ukcc that we have to have an elective placement? has anyone else been told this. please let me know. Also there is conflict over 'making up time' We were told at the start that we could miss 10 days in CFP and 11 days in branch. At the end of CFP, we were then told we could not have any days 'sick' and any time that was missed had to be made up! you can imagine the uproar, I just woundered if any of you has experienced the same thing.
louisa <ajay.barbar@virgin.net>
- Friday, September 01, 2000 at 15:48:17 (BST)
I've just come back from my summer holidays (a measly 3 weeks) to find even more people incensed about the bursary situation. I have been campaigning with Unison for some time now to get student nurses back to salary status, which should hopefully mean getting employment benefits as well as more money, which we thoroughly deserve. I feel if we are really going to change the situation, we need to join both th RCN and Unison together, and try to get the NUS involved aswell, because this is a union of which most of us, if not all of us, are members. Please don't stand back and let Alan Milburn et. al. tell us we're getting a substantial amount of money, how does he know? I bet he couldn't live off £4,800 per year. We should also be fighting for more consistency and equality amongst student nurses. I feel very strongly about the current three tier system in which degree students are expected to live off even less than the bursary students, and pay back a lot of what they receive. I don't have anything against seconded students, I think it's great that they get the amount of money they do get, but I think it is decidedly unfair that other students don't get the same. We're a special breed and we're being exploited because we've gone into a career that we wanted to do, not just something that was available at the time. Please contact your union to find out how to get involved, and tell your fellow students to do the same. The more people we get campaigning, the more chance we have of getting more money. As for Jim, go back to bed, toryboy.
Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com>
- Friday, September 01, 2000 at 10:56:17 (BST)
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