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Poo isnt the only thing...
As a someone who agrees with Roger's point of view i find it hard to understand just what Reynagh actually wants a staff nurse to do? I agree that if the situation requires it then obviously the qualified nurse should help with all the bed baths etc etc, but who would then be left to organise the discharges? Who would do the drug round? Who would chase the doctors up and inform them of changes in the patients condition? Whilst i agree that poo does play a HUGE part in nursing i personally dont believe it is the be all and end all. I want more from my career, i dont want to be another nurse chained to the drugs trolley and the bed pan, i want to be able to do more for my patients. With nursing constantly advancing, with the development of scope it shows allows the nurse to become more involved with the patients care. It allows the nurse to practice in a more holistic manner, we, as nurses would be totally responsible for the whole care given and not just for the pooey end! I guess what im trying to say is that nursing is one of the few jobs that caters for all types, therefore isnt there space for those who want to go off and develop their role as well as those who want to stay by the bedside? I think that we can all work together. I think what im trying to say to Reynagh is that whilst the poo side is important, there are those who dont believe that it is the only side, so please dont think that because we dont want to be chained to the bedpan for the rest of our lives that we arnt good nurses. Anyway thats all folks!
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 22:25:33 (GMT)
Thanx!!
I would just like to say how impressed I am with the last day or two's entries on this site. This is what its all about good healthy debate!! Thanks to all those of you giving views on Supernumerary status issues, keep them coming (and any other burning issues!) they're all going on board!!! Keep up the good work and give yourselves a big virtual pat on the back! Im going now before it all gets too fluffy (And I don't mean the sheep!!)Bye 4 now Chris :o)
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 21:26:28 (GMT)
Reynagh
I guess my responses are as predicatble these days as yours! Maybe I have not even realised that I have already joined the stalemate. As for the intimation that the NA role is beneath me, well why do I need to write all this dross and sit these exams if I am going to end up doing the same job an unqualified person does? I think it is about appropriateness for tasks and realistic expectations. I watched a G grade make beds for a whole morning because she was obliged to work on the ward on certain occassions. She did not enjoy the work but enjoyed making beds and talking to her old friends. Perhaps not the greates utilisation of resources or funds but true.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 20:25:25 (GMT)
Good luck
I would just like to send a big good luck to all those going to Leeds and just here to say that plans are now afoot for the big sleep out in Edinburgh at the begining of the year also I HAVE FINISHED MY LAST ASSIGNMENT AND ALL MY COURSE WORK......... HURRAH
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 19:33:01 (GMT)
the bedpan brigade
I am not sure of the title bedpan brigade was aimed at me. If it was then I feel duty bound to say that I was proud to be one.I have had shit under my finger nails and worse but it was always in the interests of patient care.I as one of the first men to undertake a post grad midwifery certificate and Health Visiting Certificare so I have also suffered the slings and arrows of outraged fortune.When Roger says that he does want to do what the NA's do I wonder what he does want to do and I wonder what preconceived ideas t he has about being a Registeed Nurse..joining the dairy box brigade perhaps.What ever you say Roger, Nursing is caring for patients even those with incontinence...therefore shit under the finger nails...fact of life. I am sure that you will be a good RGN and as a staff nurse set an example to all the staff beneath you. As for those NA's (?hca's) having done their job for three years you will certainly know that they are doing it properly. Just because we are over thirty we are not over the hill and can offer help and support. I have just helped guided and supported my friend thro his training and by talking to him about my knowledge and skills on his admission prepared him for life as a staff nurse. I also learned a great deal about P 2000. and I believe that the course offers more than it can deliver.
reynagh Jarrett
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 19:19:35 (GMT)
Louise
Dear Louise I am in agreement with your rationale concerning the loss of student status. One of the problems that I have, is the specious premise that if we were to loose our present status then we would become instantly utilised as stop gap labour. In truth, that is not a premise, it is a reality in certain hospitals. Against that you have to measure the student status itself, which I would suggest is a tenuous allegory at best. What is the point of the mystical figure that students have to spend engaged in practice while training? What are we supposed to be practising for all that time? The counter arguments are all too familiar. Students require more practical experience, because after3-4 years of training, they lack practical skills upon qualification. Sorry, that just says that are not being given adequate tuition while in practice. If you cannot learn core skills in three years on the wards then there ought to be questions about the individual or the system that trained that individual. The next argument is that it is the responsibility of the student to extract the maximum potential from their exposure to practice while on the wards. This idea sounds like good advice but in reality is fraught with danger, I have not suffered personally but as a 36 year old 16 stone ex-squaddie I can normally express my disquiet. Many others are simply grist to the mill and are abused accordingly. I don't hear of the same things happening to the in-house training afforded to ODP's? Incremental pay seems to suit them fine and the recognition that responsibility attracts reward, seems to be reciprocal. As for the student part of the equation, I have grave doubts. I regularly caused mirth amongst the powers that be by requesting Wednesday afternoons free to participate in University sports. Seemed a lot like health promotion, especially in a trade with a pretty handsome mean BMI, not to mention the smoking, drinking and effects of shift patterns. No, impossible, we may be students but it is clearly with a small 's'. It seems that certain elements of nurses training remain set in stone and these need not be old ideas, the newer ones are as inflexible. The obsession with registers, attendance and placement booklets, seems to suggest that the mentality is "never mind the quality, feel the width" (to quote Grace Bros.). I feel fairly confidant that the reason for the reluctance is simply economic and nothing more. Given the cost incurred in bank and agency staff, added to the cancellations, sickness and absenteeism, drop-out rates, foreign recruitment, nefarious advertising campaigns, the inexpensive option would probably be higher staff wages and waged students (on a realistic wage). That this has not been communicated to the public, in an effort to garner further support is unfortunate. Added to the fact that the parties on both side of the bargaining table seem satisfied with the rapid elation of reactive responses, as opposed to the enduring satisfaction of proactive management of the crisis. I have suggested a joint method on this site before and even worked out the sums! When I mooted the idea at the Ans conference, it was instantly shot down, as it may have fallen foul of some element of employment law. Forgive my ignorance, but such a change would surely require the efforts of Parliament anyway, and is that not how law is formed. There is a great resistance to change from within the profession to any form of change, even that that would benefit nurses and or students. If no is the easy answer it is the first answer proffered. That is why I have directed criticism at the RCN and the others involved in promoting the rights of nurses. I am sure that the numbers that disagree with this are greater than the ones that agree, either that or the usual apathy that accompanies change or prospective change will win the day again.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 18:55:54 (GMT)
re: the great myth
Louise, I do not just want to defend the status-quo. I personally would like an increased bursary, I didn't say that anybody else had to agree. As for seconded students, many in my trust are used as an extra pair of hands (admittedly because of their background) AND they are tied to the trust for two years following registration which is something I would rather not be contracted to. With the current nursing shortages, giving salaried status to students could signal similar conditions of loyallty being part of any contract of training. I simply don't want that, even if it does guarantee a job, although I do appreciate that some may think that is a small price to pay.
Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 18:35:45 (GMT)
Louise, Louise.....
You raise a very good point about the unnecessary tieing together of supernumery status with bursaries. Unfortunately you then muddy the waters by taking a snipe at RCN/ANS. Why not focus on the issues and work together to come up with solutions? A quote I think is appropriate in this chat area are "If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem."
Dave <DaveRGN@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 13:27:04 (GMT)
the great myth
I meant to say - say what the real reason is for opposing salaried status. I really must work on my typing skills!!! Sorry everyone
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 13:21:05 (GMT)
the great myth
Why do some think that a wage means loss of supernumery status? Just look around you and see the seconded students on your course. Have they been reduced to 'an extra pair of hands'? They are living proof that we could be salaried and still be as supernumery we are now. The greatest threat to our supernumery status are staff shortages - not whether or not we get a decent income. Stop using red herrings to undermine the arguements of others - say what the real reason is for opposing supernumery status. You might not care but at least I'd have a little more respect for the RCN/ANS position. At the moment you don't have a position - just a desperate desire to defend the status quo whatever that may be.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 13:13:36 (GMT)
Suzannah vs Roger
Suzannah why are you against freedom of speech? I'm not about to subject you or anybody else here to a tyrade of abuse. I personally enjoy Roger's input, I don't always agree with his views, but at least they are constructive. These pages are for healthy debates on the frustrations of student nursing, and as a qualified nurse, you may like to take some of our views on-board - learning is a two way process. I'm sure you are a reasonable person who can appreciate the pressures of today's nursing, and with your experience I'm sure that you could offer much wisdom to those of us who one day hope to reach your level. Advising someone to leave the profession before they've even started is perhaps your way of telling us about something we don't know? After all, you didn't mention many of the reasons that have made you stay in nursing for so many years. So, try giving some hope (and your e-mail address) instead of deriding us. What are you scared of?
Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 02:04:52 (GMT)
Chris: Re supernumeracy
Chris, (by the way, I now know what you look like thanks to this weeks NT!), anyway to the matter in hand. I personally favour supernumeracy in principle, I agree that a salaried status is far less beneficial in terms of our learning. Your e-mail to me (10/10/00, re: surviving my first week), confirmed that I am not alone in believing that a substantial increase in the bursary is preferable to employment status. If nursing is to progress to an all graduate profession, then I fail to see how training can be effective if we become part of the workforce. BUT supernumeracy should mean just that, there should be more flexiblity in shift patterns - affording childcare on £5000 per yr is almost impossible, something that is rarely taken into account whilst on placements. We also need study time as well as off-duty, why shouldn't we be allowed days off that mean just that. I could go on forever... These are just some of my views, does anybody else agree/disagree?
Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net>
- Tuesday, October 31, 2000 at 01:31:23 (GMT)
Supernumeracy is it a myth?
Chris, the issue of supernumeracy is quite a difficult one. The ideal situation would be that for three years the student would be supernumary ie they would NOT be counted in the numbers. This would not mean that they would sit on the sidelines and not get involved in care (before all the bedpan brigrade get upset!) It would mean that they are free to observe anything that they wish, get involved with things that they want to and have the time and space to have teaching sessions. By being supernumerate, the student would also be protected from explotation. They would not have to do every weekend etc. However as a realist i accept that this can never happen. The trusts that are 'training' us need something back so the idea of a salary in the third year seems to be a safe idea. The trust would get a highly trained workforce who would be paid slightly less than an na, this individual would be then able to work weekends and as a student getting paid for all the weekends i work would be joyous! The argument is that if a student accepted a salary then they would become nothing more than an extra pair of hands and in an ideal situation that is not good. The trouble is that students in their final year are allready being used to make up the numbers and therefore are being relegated to nothing more than another pair of hands. This is the crux of the arguement either stop the exploitation of students or pay them for the shifts they do, how you go about it is up to you. Anyway goodluck despite being one of those stazi like RCN/ANS!!!!! (LOL)
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 19:47:16 (GMT)
Come on Guys and Gals?
I thought we had got past all this persecution of individuals? In future can I suggest that any personal attacks are ignored with the contempt they deserve? I'm not into censoring (depsite being on the RCN/ANS!!) but Im sure and hope if they are ignored the culprits will get bored and find other ways to amuse their sad existance! Ray, I think we really need to look at the supernumerary status issue prior to salarying students because once the salary status comes into play any hint (and ok its not perfect at the miniute) of salary comes into being, Supernumeracy will be fossilised with such greats as giving students the keys and allowing them to run the wards at nights etc. (If you see what I mean?)!! LOL. What is the general feeling around Supernumeracy (besides the financial issues??). How would you like to see this used for STUDENTS? All comments, positive and negative gratefully recieved, would just like to get a grounding in general feeling!! Email me or messages on here are fine!!! Keep up the good work!!! Chris:o)
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 18:15:43 (GMT)
Fan club
Will you be needing any after dinner speaking, presumably as the focus of the organisation I could hope to earn a few quid with more of my bizarreness? PS not sure even I could face my own gurning image leering up in the most intimate of places and moments. Now where did I put that rattle...?
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 17:07:00 (GMT)
Keeping the site sane
Can I suggest a solution to whoever is posting some of this personalised and nasty stuff either anon. or with a variety of strange names. It is that we don not give him/her the oxygen of any response. Let such people put such nonsense on this site, but simply ignore it! The personal attack is never justifiable and it is certainly unfair when Roger simply tries to make fair points in a sometimes very amusing fashion. I liked the idea of the third year as a salaried employee, any other thoughts.
ray rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 16:58:26 (GMT)
Keep taking the medication!!
If things are so bad in the profession why do you not abandon ship oh great Rodger??? If medicine is looking so attractive why not go and study it.From my of view of a Unison member for an RCN member you do show disturbing traits have you ever heard of the concept of shooting oneself in the foot?? I was considering joining the RCN but after seeing your antics which I find most scarey and bizzare I have changed my mind. Oh and please watch out for those men in White Coats Sweetheart (And I don't mean the RCN Nannies!!) because they'll catch up with you one day darlin!!! When can we have the T-shirts and Baseball caps with your cheesy grin on, Oh great Guru in Nursing? I personally am waiting for the personalised toilet roll to wipe your face all over my A**.!
Obermaier Fan Club UK
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 15:24:59 (GMT)
In reply
Suzannah, You must be right! I should join the large numbers of people nursing who are leaving. We clearly cannot see the bliss for the crisis and are tainted compared to those awaiting canonisation. However, against that the sainted few must be feeling either hugely justified in their vocation, or concerned for their profession. As the NHS faces another winter crisis, with beds closed through nursing shortages, why is it that there is not a surplus of nurses? With the brilliant insightful interventions of the members of the nursing profession over the years contributing to the idyllic working environment, you would think people would be fighting for the jobs? Clearly it is the result of the nasty people, the less than evangelical who have tainted the pure ones. They are the ones who lack the 'proper' drives and desires for the job. Strangely, it would seem that even the college that you have so kindly invited me to depart, has noted that there is a need for increased wages and better conditions. Now how could that be? Is it that in fact nursing is in crisis, and rather than robbing the grave or the former colonies, it needs to find realistic solutions? Why would anyone in this day and age wish to slog at A level and then again at University to earn such a derisory wage? Why is it when the technologies that medicine obliges nurses to comprehend increases, 'proper' nurses choose to criticise technical skills? Perhaps the real problem seems to be that nurses burn out and cannot be replaced as recruitment struggles to match the haemorrhaging. Perhaps it is that when you get someone who has the requisite educational requirements, you should not treat them as some kind of lacky. I was amused to note the sincerity with which the profession investigated the possibility of SEN's being bullied at work! Given the number of my fellow students who I have known to be reduced to tears, I am surprised that students did not get a mention? The traditionalist bedpan brigade have managed to wrest control of the sinking ship and are sailing full speed for disaster. I am reminded of the Titanic, as she struck the iceberg one of the passengers enquired what the noise was. They was assured that the ship was just taking some ice on board. Tragically I have been invited to apply for work on virtually every ward that I have worked on, surely an indication of the direness of the staff shortages. In fact so desperate are the wards that they will even concoct glowing appraisals for students even as undeniably poor as I must be. Truly the great ones and the old ones are few and far between. I know a large number of nurses who occupy the D,E,F grades who are facing incredible difficulties in their daily chores. How can this be when they have been preceded by such wisdom and wit, with the bountiful stewardship of the RCN to act as their aegis? Ah well, it is either time to leave or stuff my head into the sand and chant the mantras suggested, "everything is alright", "patients first", "no criticism, it is so hurtful".
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 13:38:53 (GMT)
BIG SLEEP in LEEDS
Great press interest from around the Yorkshire & Humberside Region to the story that nursing students will take to the streets of Leeds and going to sleep! There are already stories appearing in the papers so let's hope for a great turn out. Please get in touch for further information.
Karen Towner <k.towner@unison.co.uk>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 13:36:30 (GMT)
Get a Life Baron!!!
Just when all seemed to be getting better on this site some tosser who can't even give his real name drops in a little comment to try and stir up the Sh!t$ once more. Have you got nothing better to do?? Im sure that the those who you have named would be extremely pi$$ed off at the query of their existance. -------In case you haven't noticed since you have been away doing what you do best (being away!!) the majority of people on this site are trying to put differences aside and work together. So do us a favour Baron von TW*T take a long walk off a short pier and let the genuine students who want to start making changes carry on with out childish and rather sad interruption. Could I recommend you try the Samaritans or something????============Phil Mullinex (O'h and yes I do exist!!!!)
Phil Mullinex <Muttley@buttonmoon.zzn.com>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 13:23:26 (GMT)
Reply to the real Nurses
You see it is that sanctimonious 'holier than thou' attitude that really grates with me. The idea that because people believe that there is something wrong in nursing that they should quit is ridiculous! I cannot state how much this attitude annoys me. We cannot all agree on the way in which nursing should progress as we all have differant ideas and values, but when someone states that they are having a rough deal, for someone to turn round and say 'well nursing would be better off without them' and 'to leave it to the real nurses' that is lunacy! It seems to be a case of see no evil hear no evil speak no evil. These things are happening in a hospital near you! If you choose to blindly work through and have that Dunkirk spirit then that is very admirable but why is it in Nursing, nurses are not allowed to criticise? Are we not human? Do we not have opinions? Or should we just put up and shut up? After all this has done so well for Nursing hasnt it? I mean nurses dont get paid badly or work on short staffed under equipped wards at all do they? So you can see that by just quietly sitting there and letting the real nurses get on with it hasnt really achieved much has it?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The fact that ward managers have a very difficult job is well documented and i appreciate that. The fact that they have to cope with ever shorter staffing and more patients is also something i understand. But as a student i feel that when i am used as cheap stop gap labour then i feel i am losing out. I appreciate that obviously the time i spend with the patients is appreciated and is very valuable, however im not learning anything new. Because i have worked on a ward where i was treated as nothing more than a pair of hands i feel my training has suffered. I am training to be a nurse and wether people agree with it or not nursing is dominated by a task orientated ideal. If i dont know how to do those tasks because i was never given the chance to learn them, then how am i to act in the best intrests of the patient. At the end of the day i want to train to be a nurse, i never came into my nurse training to be an NA (as valuable as they are) so i would appreciate the chance to do it. There is a differance between the role of an NA and that of a staff nurse, that is why one requires someone to train for three years and to register and the other doesnt. The other major point is that whilst the ward manger has a difficult job to do they get paid for it, whilst the NA's work hard they get paid for it (allthough poorly) as a student you work all the weekends and lates and nights to help out and guess what you dont get paid for it.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 12:42:25 (GMT)
Ruth, Andrea, Suzannah or is it
Seems lik yur stile reminds me of somone else, complet with th e insilts? Maybe for you to purse yor lips an kismiass?
Prince Otto Von Bismark
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 12:28:10 (GMT)
Unhappy Roger
Roger if you feel so disillusioned with life and what you are embarking on, then you have a choice to quit and leave us the real nurses to do what we want to do. All you do is sit there and type a lot of garbage in order to seek attention. If you are really that unhappy about the way nursing is and the way the RCN represents it's members, you have a choice to quit what is making you so unhappy. The way you are going this will most probably affect your health and you would be of no help to the patients. If you continue this whining you might do more damage to your psychological well being. All you are doing here is annoying us with your constant rudeness, arrogance and disrespect to others. So quit nursing and get a real life that makes you happy. By the way I have been a nurse long since before you can walk. So stop this stupidity and get a life. Stop being self centred like the world owes u a lot. If you had any decency you would stop this tyrade. Take a good look at yourself and see how miserable you are. Goodbye and hope this is the last we hear from you.
Suzannah von Bronkhorst
- Monday, October 30, 2000 at 12:07:20 (GMT)
A questionable heritage
If nursing is all about the simple, functional (nee body function) orientated elements of care. If it is the work that is the present domain of the most cherished of healthcare providers (HCA's of course). Why is that these b######s are so keen to get the stupid blank blank students to do it for them. Strange how many nurses who qualified when God was a kid spend so much time talking about how important it is to get shit under your nails in this job and even stranger how few of them do so! The over-riding reason that I have felt like toeing it is being patronised by staff who use me to give their best mates the unqualified staff the weekend off and who expect me to find some quasi-religious, zealotary inspiration in the sluice. Modern students seem unskilled? That is because we spend our time learning to be NA's. And if that was such frigging great work, why dont the qualified staff put down the Dairy Milk and have a go? Do you know how to spell patronising?
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 23:10:20 (GMT)
Kris's mesage
One sentence in Kris's message jumped out at me "used as cheap stop labour " Doing what Kris..caring for patients and attending to their need .....is'nt that what nursing's about. I dont consider it cheap or stop gap.Or are you telling us that you dont want to nurse until you are Registered. I have been a nurse for 47 years and there has always been something about the profession to moan about so I dont think you are a miserable b******d.but I think that you a looking rather more at your needs than those of the patients both have to be balanced and with the acute shortage of nurses the balancing act becomes more difficult. Next time you are feeling cheap stop gap labour put yourself in the place of the Ward Manager trying to deliver quality care and if he/she thinks that you are capable of delivering it you should be flattered.
reynagh jarrett
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 22:49:06 (GMT)
supernumery or not
I an very interested to know what is meant by supernumery status. Does it mean sitting next to Nelly and watching and learning...not a good way to learn in my opinion. Task orientated learning is a dirty word in nurse teaching these days. But I believe that it is delivering care to the patient..surely thats what its all about so learning and giving a satisfactory outcome for both nurse and patients.The basis of midwifery training is three clinical placement days each week with a set number of competencies to be gain. Giving the students a feeling of satisfaction and achievement.Remember the RGN's that are your mentors today were the students of yesterday and in time you will be the mentors of tomorrow. So really it only takes one generation of students in training to turn things around because you are going to be splended mentors when your turn comes.
reynagh Jarrett <rhjarrett@btinternet .com>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 22:37:00 (GMT)
Another cry for Unity
Exactly the point that i was going to make. All students need to be protected because they are the future of nursing. Despite all the whinging that i have done there have been many high points in my training, there have been those wonderfull moments that do make it all seem worthwhile. I love my job, but and it is a big but, there does seem to be an agenda that all students seem to be there for, is to make up the numbers. To be seen and not heard. Until Nursing and the nursing heirarchy realise that the type of students now going into training has changed (students are now more knowledgeable, more politically aware and are aware of their own rights more than ever before) then the attrition rates are still going to be high. Whilst students are being used as cheap stop gap labour then there still is going to be discontent. I want to be a nurse, i have worked hard for nearly three years to get there and yet why is it that fellow students and i want to give it all up and do something else? What is going on in the health service that causes so many to give up? The answers have been stated here so many times before and they will be stated so many times after i leave. So it is a very noble ambition to try and build something worthwhile i hope that it happens, so again the cry for unity goes up but will it happen? Perhaps im just to jaded and cynical (or even perhaps im just a miserable b#####d!)
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 19:23:31 (GMT)
Ok Dave
I get it, everyone chips in and together we start something! How about some key principles/rules/guidelines that all would subscribe to? How about a series of clear definitions? I would like to suggest a return to supernumerary status for third/final year students. Without going into a by now immensely tiresome "does so/does not" arguments; it would seem that student nurses are on occassion used in an wholly inappropriate manner. I hope that this is not the catalyst for a great long list of qualaified and student nurses writing in about how brilliant they or there placements are. Suffice to say, not all are and there needs to be an organised and mandated form of protection for students who can and are (on occassion) utilised as alternate bank staff to combat very real staffing problems.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 17:23:36 (GMT)
Orgs and individuals
I have to support the comments offered by Dave. The world would be great if all organisations were perfect, they are not.This does not mean that any of us have to walk away from what we believe could be better. I put myself on the line to run as Rcn President to fight for change. Well, I did not get it, but I have the knowledge that nearly 23000 nurses were bothered enough to support some of my ideas. I have far better understanding of the current problems facing students than I had before, thanks in no small part to students on this site who were motivated enough to contact me. I have the knowledge that many hundreds of nurses bothered to email me with fantastic support and other ideas. So what do we do, we stay and cajole and question and fight for change and we do not need to slag each other off to achieve that. We can have healthy and robust disagreement on policies and ideas on a site like this(uncensored by Rcn nannies), but lets build the common agenda around which change can take place. Keep the ideas, questions and cajoling moving.
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 15:00:53 (GMT)
.....As an individual
That's my point! As individuals you don't stand a chance of doing much more than standing on a soap box and frothing at the mouth. If you identify a rough agenda and post it on the internet where others know to look - like here - you can get some sort of agreement of common goals and principles. Using this site as an example: Thornbury have picked a subject with a large audience; they then lit the touchpaper and stood well back. All you have to do is look for areas of agreement rather than ways to insult each other. The RCN has a chat area how does it compare? What sort of resources have they allocated to it? Fundamentally this is just a chat area with freedom of speech. You get to shape it however you like. Why not build rather than be destructive?
Dave <DaveRGN@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 14:38:26 (GMT)
In reply to Dave
All good stuff and sensible to boot. However, as an individual it is very hard to achieve the same impact that organisations can. The main problem here is that a lot of the problems that beset the profession, are characterised by a lack of willingness on the part of those who would seek to represent nursing. The fact that the RCN would have to form a committee to investigate nursing student poverty beggars belief. Add to that the fact that not all of the qualified staff out there in practice either care or understand the difficulties faced by those training today. It can go a long way towards explaining why attrition rates run so high, up to 45% in London and it's environs. Colleges are desperate to place students in ever-increasing numbers into the same hospitals. The result is that any placement is more important than the students who are in those placements. Unity is a grand notion, but while the wishes of the few are portrayed as the will of the many, by those who seem to eke out more than a modest living from the profession, there will be problems.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 13:57:19 (GMT)
Try listening instead of giving your opinion...
I've watched these pages with absolute amazement. Beneath all the backbiting and petty name calling there have been some pretty good things happening - the sleep outs seem to be a case in point. It would help if the people who call for everyone to work together would think before they put finger to keyboard. If you ask for everyone to work together and then insult previous users you just fan the flames. Two issues that have been brought out recently are the issues of burseries and supernumary status. The rest of the time has been spent insulting each other. It seems that you have a huge opportunity to raise the profile of students by highlighting how the government is offering with one hand and taking away with the other. They say how they are recruiting thousands more students but they don't say anything about the hardships faced by students once they have been lured into training. They don't mention they high drop out rates - can anyone supply hard facts about local and nationwide drop out rates? One of the reasons nurses have been trodden on so easily is that they have been divided. In real terms nursing pay has dropped more than has been highlighted already because jobs have been downgraded. If you are serious about making things better then work together to identify important issues. Would I encourage my daughter to be a nurse? You have got to be kidding!....
Dave <DaveRGN@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 10:51:51 (GMT)
Oh yes and I am going to say that what is the happening and the who is that is the ones that they is the one who is the one who is criticising. Oh yes, them is that without the sins is the one that is the casting of the first that is the stone. HCA's is the ones in the line that is in the front and is the ones that is the real workers. Nurses just be sitting and writing and doing nothing. Them three years at the college is the end of the be all? Ha! Nothing is what they is knowing the best of! What is Socrates saying with the emptiness and the vessels, is only as much as the not being able to put the new wine into the casks that is old, yes. With the landmarks that voted, the HCA's recognition will soon be as huger as that the nurses have taken for themselves. Matter that is time will be shown that the NHS is whole run by HCA's or the nurses that was the HCA's. Them that was not is not that that should be and should not be as they are not being the HCA's first. God bless and goodwill and the blessing of all the saints upon you and all of the significant figures whom might yet be canonised or simply seem particularly devout.
- Sunday, October 29, 2000 at 00:07:02 (BST)
Make mine a Amarula with Black Sambuca
Thanks Chris, I can assure you that my colleagues and I will support you and the ANS Executive through this trying time. My colleagues and I have been reading through these pages and have noticed that there has been some relly negative stuff written about the ANS. We want you to know that you and the ANS Exec are not alone here and i know the support is building up and all those who are RCN bashing think very carefully when you get yourself in a situation in the ward who would you be turning to for help or advise. Is it going to be Unison or RCN. Personally i do care who you go to but get your priorities right and look where your loyalty lies. One thing I know for sure I would not want to wortk with any of you cause of your remarks and the manner you all attack people and turn a decent debate into a personal attack. It is a pity that you have not yet valued the principal of working in a Multi Disciplinary Team. On my ward and shift I want to work with people I am comfortable with and I can trust. People I know would not be two faced and stab me in the back when I am not looking. I want to work with people with absolute no prejudices because the other person belongs to another union. Nursing is about caring and being sympathetic towards patients and their families irrespect of their race, religion, ethinicity and sexuality. I want to feel at home and comfortable with my colleagues. This is why I want to become a nurse to help and heal patients. not to make people's lives a misery for selfish reasons. To all those who feel they are the voice of nursing students. You are wrong. We have been reading these pages and since September we are disgusted and appalled with certain people's behaviour and the manner they have treated individuals on this web page. I have said my peice and I sincerely hope this would stop and the real campaigning will begin now and hopefully Unison, RCN and the NUS will join forces and address the real issues than a few empty vessels making noise on this website. Take that energy and use it positively. Good luck all on the sleepouts and if my hubby and kids allow me to join you it would be a pleasure.
Andrea
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 22:47:56 (BST)
Ps any alcohol will do for me, ta!
Lynette <Sorry>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 21:17:50 (BST)
PLEASE can someone give some dates for these sleep outs so that I can start planning.
Lynette
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 21:16:24 (BST)
Chris there are issues with our status. It needs to be clarified where we stand , although I realise that the financial issues effect the other issues, but I feel that our status is tenuous we should be accepted as a valuable member of the team because we are put in place of HCA's or we should be an accessory to the staffing team and be treated as an incapable bunch. I am sure that everyone on this site can identify with this.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 21:14:59 (BST)
Chris, Make mine a Red Bull and Vodka Ogh and a Stella Please!!!!!! What you having Andrea???? Drinks are on the ANS apparently!!! He He He!!!!
Ruth
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 21:05:21 (BST)
Thanks Guys!!!
As incoming member of the RCN/ANS Executive I would like to thank Andrea and Ruth in their support of our work as ANS. From a personal point of view I want to make sure that all Nursing Students voices are heard and will work together with the rest of the team to make sure that past events are avoided and hopefully mend some bridges along the way. One thing we need to be concious of however is that there is going to be no quick fix solution to all of our problems but we need to pull our heads together regardless of membership (which I am glad to see is actually being taken on board by the majority who use this site!!)inorder to start the ball rolling, hopefully it will gather the momentum to actually make a difference to all our lives. I hope I (and the rest of exec) can count on your continued support!!! We only have a week to go until the ANS strategy weekend so if there are issues which you feel are prominent in your Uni/area please let us know either via this site, RCN webpage or contact your ANS representative (details on RCN Webpage!!) Please also be asssured that student hardship/funding are going to be one of the main ongoing issues this year as all the feedback (and from personal experience!!) shows that its prominent one, but lets hear of some more too!!! Thanks again for your support!! (Will buy you that drink later!!!) Best wishes Chris :) Chris Headland (RCN/ANS Exec., Wales)
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 20:54:38 (BST)
Well ta Kris for the "hige" round of applause (ha ha). Miles nice thought but I don't wanna sound greedy but £850 was how much my child care cost last year don't think we should be on that! well at least it should reflect something of what hard work we put into it. But then there would be a dilemma if they payed us too much as students they would have to reconsider how much qualified Nurses get cos it int that much more! Anyhoo, can someone write up a list of more sleep outs because I am working on the 6th and next week.PLEASE!!!!
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 20:48:21 (BST)
Support all students.
The best way to avoid a nursing shortage of the tomorrow, is to look after those who are joining it today. I propose that all nursing students be paid at least £850 per month, Free accomadation cost and free travel. Does anyone, in their right mind, think that if the above was happening now, we would have a shortage of nurses. Would we hell. It is sometime now since I was a student and if I was treated like the ones of today, I would have looked elsewhere for a job. It never fails to amaze me that nursers are so much loved by the public but treated like shit by the politicians.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 19:09:43 (BST)
RCN/ANS
I totally agree with Ruth we should all stand united irrespect of uinions and support our student reps in our plight and fight for a fair deal. I am also a nursing student and I have met members of the incoming ANS Executive. They seem to be genuine concerned people and lets give them a chance to work on their strategies. Lou congrats on your success and I hope we can put our differences aside ie. Unison vs RCN and lets work together for a better future for all nursing students irrespect of their membership. Good luck in your studies and placement and hope maybe one day we can be sipping coffe and having a laugh.
Andrea
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 18:02:59 (BST)
sleep out success!
Congratulations Lou on the success of your sleepout!! I am an RCN ANS member and am really enlightened to see you fighting for what you believe in. Although my views differ to yours I think the more we lobby government from all angles the better. However I disagree with your comments re: ANS executive members. From those newly elected who I have met at various conferences etc., I think there is going to be a great deal of change or at least some action this year. I would urge you to take upon yourself rather than look for the negatives to use what you have already achieved and work together with our new exec. Maybe now C.H. is retiring this top down approach can be broken down? I know we as members of the RCN/ANS, although we can not vote on the new choice will campaign hard for a student-friendly listener and leader of our organisation!! Luv ya all, Ruth xxxxxx
Ruth
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 17:08:01 (BST)
HCAs/NAs
If one worked in a garage or worked in meany other trades, painting,building,carpenter,bricklayer. After a number of years, 3/4. That person would be known as a "Timed served" and would have ineffect "Tranied on the job" and be recognised as such. However in nursing, a grade A is a grade A for ever and a day. I do not belive they get any more money if they do have a NVQ. Some are B grade and a very few are C grade but most of them are referred to as untrained which I feel is unfair on them. They are all "trained" in their own right. Most of the ones that I have worked with and been cared by, know a vast amount about the job and they have a lot of common sence, but for the lack of O levels I am quite sure they would have done their RGN or whatever.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 15:23:10 (BST)
HCA's vs Na's vs the world!!!
I might get shot down with my next comment so apologies to anyone offended!! There is a degree in skill in taking blood pressures, temp etc. Having HCA's trained to do this is great but a number of HCA's whom I have worked with have pointed out the following.... The skill of taking Bp's and temps etc are important. The interpretation of these results are of even more importance. Training is given to us on the crux of the job but we feel that the skills taught to nurses are important and required to enable those results to be interpreted to the individual patient. Nurses from my understanding are taught to observe the patient to recognise deviations from what is "Normal" and to then cary out whatever care is required to rectify this. As an N/A I would feel poorly qualified in this area even though I know damn well how to take a BP or a temp!!!
Bob Flemming <bob.f@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, October 28, 2000 at 03:22:46 (BST)
HCA vs. NA
As regards the experience of HCA's, I agree that they have a lot to offer. As a first yr student however, I get sick of the "those of you who have been HCA's will know this (whatever is relevant at the time)". Some of us have been NURSING AUXILLIARIES in years past, and undertook the same duties as today's HCA's on NVQ level 3, but our experience is discounted by those who have NVQ's and even the teaching staff,who see our experience as being less valid than someone with a peice of paper to prove their existence. We were doing the same job as NVQ level 3 HCA's, I.E.:vital-signs,B.P.,resps,pulse, wound dressing, etc. & were just as competent. Certificates are actually a very positive step forward - and I wish that I had one to prove that I could do all of these things - but it would do well if the afore mentioned people remembered that I HAVE wiped bottoms, liased with relatives, been pissed and thrown-up on, taken BP, RESP's etc. The funny thing is, I was doing this before most of the people on my course with NVQ's had left school!
Donna <donna-c@carey-d.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, October 27, 2000 at 21:54:19 (BST)
Vigil @ the wickerman
UNISON nursing & midwifery students are holding a vigil at one of Somerset's newest landmarks this Monday. The wickerman of the west is just beside the M5 north of Taunton. The vigil will run from 5pm and there's point in repeating what UNISON is campaign for - contact me at UNISON SW for more information (01823) 288031. Good luck to everyone who's off to Leeds next week.
Dominic Forristal <D.Forristal@unison.co.uk>
- Friday, October 27, 2000 at 18:49:09 (BST)
SW Sleep out
Last Tuesday a group of students at The University of Plymouth held a sleep out at the Royal Devon & Exeter Hospital in Exeter and the support we received was just overwhelming. We managed to get really great coverage on local TV - both BBC and ITV. Within 30 minutes of the news both members of the public and staff at the hospital were bringing out flasks of tea and coffee, sweets, and boxes of chocolates. We all must have put on a stone. I know we all spend a lot of time here arguing about stuff but just speak (and listen) to NHS staff or the public and they support Unison's campaign without hesitation. It's good to see that RCN/ANS are finally getting round to bothering to ask their own members what they want but I'll bet an hour of my wages (£2.60!) that the questions will be suitably loaded so that those at the top will get the answers they want. As for dipsticks - student hardship is one of the biggest issues facing us all and what does 'no limits' have to say on the subject - certainly looks like there are definate limits for some.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Friday, October 27, 2000 at 17:39:50 (BST)
Thanks Rog!!!
Oy willl gow and luck at yur recwest, thanx 4 the suport, wil alos chec me spoiling next toime!!!! best wishes Chris :o)
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Friday, October 27, 2000 at 13:25:09 (BST)
Reply to Anonymous
You put some good points, but I don't understand why you are anonymous. Just a thought.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, October 26, 2000 at 19:31:56 (BST)
To Kris.
Thank you for your response Kris. I agree with what you say. The point that I was making was that having been on the "other side" as a patient and seeing at first hand all the care that I was given, made me realise just how much the HCAs do. Having said that, I should have known before. Of course all of those who cared for me were wonderful and I am so grateful to them all, but the male and female HCAs were very special, in that, in their role they were able to spend more time with the patients than the trained nurses, who of course had the ward to run and mountains of paper work to do.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, October 26, 2000 at 19:19:16 (BST)
Joining streams with Chris
Anyone out there without some degree of indemnity insurance is bucking the odds in this increasingly litiginous society. On another note, did you see the posting I sent in to your request Chris? Another pointer, is that if you have Word on your PC, you can cut and paste into the chat page savin awl thoise ebnrassing speeinlgs!
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 26, 2000 at 18:50:00 (BST)
Joining a Union!
Would just like to agree with Miles comments in respect of joining a union. For anybody who is new to nursing/ not joined a professional union and have read these pages, don't let them put you off joining a union. Which one you join is entirely down to your own preference but if you haven't done so already join one of them now it is really important that you do. I used to be an officer for our Student union and belive me no student union in the country has the funds to provide the indemnity insurance that us as Nursing students require!! If there is a student union out there that can please let me know!!! Advice to any new students is to go to the webpages of the unions and or talk to student stewards of the respective Unions theres almost always one in every University and make your own mind up!!! Good luck Chris :o)
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Thursday, October 26, 2000 at 14:36:03 (BST)
Passion
Is it bad spelling night tonight? can enywon juion in or wot? I feel in response to the posting from 'anonymous' that despite the fact that you say that we should all live in peace and harmony it is often the case that there are those who just seem to annoy the piss out of us. In our profession we are taught to respect others and i suppose this even comes true when we dont agree with what they are saying. I feel that allthough some of the criticisms on this site do tend to be a bit personal there is a lot that is said which is valid and interesting. So if we were all to be awfully nice and polite then a lot of the character of this site would be lost. If people are being how shall we put it, a little techy with each other then it is only because of their passionate beliefs. So i guess what im trying to say is i rather there is some conflict then we all say nothing.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 26, 2000 at 00:11:59 (BST)
Welcome bak Suren
Glad tu see yu bak
E-I-Addio
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 23:55:14 (BST)
HCAs
hi miles, i totally agree with you that HCAs do play an important role and that they should be protected. as for the unison versus rcn issue. as for as i am aware and can speak from the point of experience that most students haev dual membership ie. rcn and unison. students in my clas which is 300 has joined both rcn and unison. when it comes to figures it is irrelevant. what is relevant that we should stop attacking each other and work together as nursing studnets to achieve a better deal for all of us. we should think of joining forces both rcn and unison members to negotiate a fair increase in either bursary or salary. so lets all unite and go for eaquality in our bursaries or grants. so lets stop this rcn versus unison and after all most of the students have dual membership for their own personal reasons. as i see that the ones who are attacking the rcn are both rcn and unison members. will these people stop the attacks and decide which side of the coin you belong. lots of them are rcn members and unison but they tend to forget which side is their loyalty lies. so these so called activists make up your mind if you are unison or rcn. but from what i see most of them are unison members. thus far i can say i agree with your points and concerns but you have lost my respect since you all became personal and by making those attack on christine hancock and the rcn does not make all of you better people. it shows how bad mannered and if all of your attitudes is like this on this website then nursing has a long way to go and if these people think they are the future of nursing then they got a long way to go in life and lot of developing to do. well now all these so called activists and democrats can haev a go and insult me but remember everytime you print a derogatory message here and attack a person it shows the type of person you are. your little audience and fan club may applaud you for being nasty and vile but majority of the sane and reasonable thinking person haev a different view to what you have.
Anonymous
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 23:17:50 (BST)
Miles
Miles, i wasnt criticising HCA's in any way what i was cticising is the RCN's habit of massaging figures to make itself look better! I value HCA's, NA's CTM or whatever else you want to call them as highly as the next member of staff, allthough to say that you have never heard an NA complain about anything is a bit daft as im sure they are just as pissed off about their pay and conditions as we are. The untrained staff are extremely valuable and the NHS couldnt run without them, but neither could it run without the qualified staff who 'oversee' all the care that is delivered. I think that in Nursing and im speaking hear as a hopefully soon to be qualified nurse that we are very good at singing every one elses praises and yet not our own.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 22:19:31 (BST)
Reply to Kris.
As you may already know, HCAs used to be called Nursing Auxilliary's. However Miss Handcock, thought that it was wrong to say that the person who wipes a patients bottom, or baths them, or helps to put their willy in a bottle or does the other 100s of things that they do, day in day out. A NURSE. So the Miss Handcocks of this planet, amoung others, came up with, HCAs, and as such their were not, in Handcocks eyes, worthy of membership within the RCN...Untill now that is. Last year I had a motor bike accident and I was in hospital for seven months. Without a shadow of doubt,I can assure all of you that the HCAs undertook more of my nursing care than anybody else on the ward. Of course everyone who helped me was great, but the HCAs were the gratest. So now I have seen ward life from both sides. I now feel very humble when I see the HCAs at work and I for one have the greatest respect for them and the work that they do, for such a insult of a wage that they are paid, but it is not often that one hears them complain about anything.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 21:34:21 (BST)
'Mature' Student!
I'd just like to say that I am in my fifth week of training and as a 'mature' student (29!!) I'd just like to say thanks to Kris for admiring us students who have kids. My two boys are 2 & 4 and in three weeks time I have my first two weeks of placement. God knows what I'm going to do if I have to be on an early shift. All well and good for this Lord Hunt to say that we should take advantage of the college facilities, my college is 50 miles away from where I live, has no creche and does not open at 7am!! He's probably never had to work for £2.60 an hour or find childcare for two children that are too young to go to school! Try becoming a student nurse for a week, then he'd know what hardship was!! Anyway enough of my whinging. I'm enjoying it so far ... only time will tell!! Cheers all!
Heather <Leheluja@aol.com>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 21:28:07 (BST)
Lord Silver Spoon
Lord Bloody Hunt probably has a silver spoon in his mouth!!! He will be saying next that it is our own fault for having babies in the first place. Get in the real world Lord Toff!!!!
Anita <anita.keal@ic24.net>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 21:19:12 (BST)
Re: Number of Members
At the last count, 25/9/00. Unison had 47,851 students as members. However that should be of no surprise to anyone. Unison is the biggest public service union in Europe. What is more important than numbers, is whatever organisation you join, make sure that you are in something. I have no time for these daft buggers who are too mean to join anything, then when something happens, they think the world owes them a favour to get them out of, you know what. The RCN has got it's self a bad name because when Maggie Thatcher was in number 10, Ms Handcock betrayed the nursing profession by sucking up to Maggie, by agreeing to a pittance of a pay rise for nurses. Unison where dead against it, presumably Handcock was in hope that Maggie would have made her the new Queen of England. Over looking the fact that Maggie thought that SHE was the Queen.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 20:35:31 (BST)
Lord Hunt's letter
Sounds like there was a typing error on the part where he should sign his letter...in fact his surname begins with a "C". Ask him to join us in the real world some day!
Newbie
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 20:26:23 (BST)
The governments great and good (not really)
I wonder how many of the 'great and good' that the government appoint to these comittees could actually survive on what we get paid? It probably wouldnt keep Lord Hunt in cigars for any amount of time would it? I have so much respect for all those who have children and manage to do their training as well. Not only do you have to put up with crap conditions as in poor shift timings and no child care but you have to pay for your kids on the pittance that we recive. As a young single bloke (no this is not the begining of a lonely hearts add!) with no major debts, i find it hard enough to survive let alone if i had any dependants. I think that you deserve a hige round of applause for your dedication as being a student Nurse aint easy at the best of times but being a student Nurse and being a parent must be damn tough! On another note in the Nursing Standard today the headline is that'4 out of five members want HCA's to join the RCN' yet a figure below said that only 14% of the RCN's members actually voted. Sound a bit strange? Is this another case of the RCN bending the facts to suit itself and cover itself in glory? I'll leave it to you to decide.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 20:17:24 (BST)
oh pooh
I cannot believe that you were given the same bollocks as me Anne-Marie. Lord Hunt said some crap about me giving up my training and starting again as a HCA!!?????Then some tosspot called John Wright from Direct Line at the education regulations branch, implied that I should be grateful for what I had because other students have it tougher than us!And that makes it OK I suppose? Oh God I am so fed up with these stupid people.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 19:37:43 (BST)
Recruitment
Don't be like that Gareth, we've just spent days trying to get away from the RCN vs Unison debate. Try contacting the London office (1 Mabledon Place) or email them via the web page. Our members are usually in lesser numbers because the RCN is a professional body not a Union and so we are viewed differently. Let's try and forget the numbers and work to improve the conditions. Lizzie
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 18:14:18 (BST)
I think both the RCN and Unison are both crap but I joined one for my own protection. I chose the RCN coz their badge is better and you get a diary, mug key ring and wallet whan you join. I can't understand why they gave me a wallet though coz I never have anything to put in it.
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 17:43:29 (BST)
Number of members
I've been told that the RCN has about 30,000 student members unfortunately when I asked th eUnison recruitment people how many student members they had thay couldn't tell me does anyone know or is it so small that they don't want to tell me?
Gareth Jones
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 17:39:32 (BST)
RCN Student Survey
The RCN/ANS has commissioned its own survey of students views on funding etc. the initial findings will be available in December. Obviously only a random selection of RCN members have been used but the resluts should indicate exactly how thay would like to be funded and thus provide the back bone for any future lobbying be it on the bursary or salary.
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 17:04:11 (BST)
oops
sorry it was not supposed to be sent twice - this computer technology sometimes has me baffled!
anne-marie
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 12:00:15 (BST)
student inequality
i have just received a letter from Lord Hunt which attempts to take on board issues raised but unison regarding student nurses - it has a few flaws! apparently we are fortunate that we do not have to pay £1000 tuition fees which other students in higher education have to pay, "the support package they (student nurses) receive, for both fees and maintainance, is more favourable than that for other students in higher education" - obviously failing to mention the fact that we do almost a 40 hour week and get only 7 weeks holiday a year, which results in student nurses having to work long hours to supplement their "favourable" bursary. Whereas other students do around a 8 - 20 hr week and get 8 weeks in the summer, so have time to supplement their student loans (not to mention that at the end of their training they will be earning an awful lot more than the average nurse). The letter goes on to mention that seconded students get more money than the rest of us because they are usually "older, have family commitments and could not afford to lose their salary whilst undergoing training" - this part left me speechless! And as regarding childcare costs "students may be able to take advantage of concessionary facilities for students. Students are advised to contact their universtiy, regarding the provision of childcare and the costs involved" - i agree the university creche is £5 a week cheaper than what i pay my childminder, but it closes when the university closes, do i take my daugher to lectures when it is not open? what will i do with her when i work shifts? any way if you have any thoughts on this let me know - i will be writing to Lord Hunt regarding these flaws.
anne-marie osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 11:58:59 (BST)
student inequality
i have just received a letter from Lord Hunt which attempts to take on board issues raised but unison regarding student nurses - it has a few flaws! apparently we are fortunate that we do not have to pay £1000 tuition fees which other students in higher education have to pay, "the support package they (student nurses) receive, for both fees and maintainance, is more favourable than that for other students in higher education" - obviously failing to mention the fact that we do almost a 40 hour week and get only 7 weeks holiday a year, which results in student nurses having to work long hours to supplement their "favourable" bursary. Whereas other students do around a 8 - 20 hr week and get 8 weeks in the summer, so have time to supplement their student loans (not to mention that at the end of their training they will be earning an awful lot more than the average nurse). The letter goes on to mention that seconded students get more money than the rest of us because they are usually "older, have family commitments and could not afford to lose their salary whilst undergoing training" - this part left me speechless! And as regarding childcare costs "students may be able to take advantage of concessionary facilities for students. Students are advised to contact their universtiy, regarding the provision of childcare and the costs involved" - i agree the university creche is £5 a week cheaper than what i pay my childminder, but it closes when the university closes, do i take my daugher to lectures when it is not open? what will i do with her when i work shifts? any way if you have any thoughts on this let me know - i will be writing to Lord Hunt regarding these flaws.
anne-marie osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 11:57:09 (BST)
Hi Chris
I was at the ANS conference thingy and went there on a wave of optimism and washed back up on the shores of reality on a tide of discontentment. Nursing has such well documented problems, that I think that there is no need to invite repitition. This endless argument that pervades all the RCN about whether or not people should be criticised is fascile. At the conference, one of the speakers read the story of the 'Emperor's new clothes'. I am beginning to fear that the RCN is allowing itself to be dazzled by the wonderous cloth it weaves and the rest of us are being embarrassed by what we can all see. What nursing in this country needs, rather than another catalogue of its misfortune and the misfortune of its members, is action. What nursing needs to say is that you could recruit three times as many potential nurses into colleges, bring everyone under eighty back, take anyone with a nursing qualification from anywhere, and if you do not improve pay and conditions, they will leave. Why is it acceptable to put patients at risk on a daily if not hourly basis in many hospitals across the country through staffing levels? Why is it such an anathema to the hierarchy to protest the appalling state of the NHS and the conditions that nurses endure through controlled, structured work to rule? How is it that one of the single largest groups of employees in Europe are unable to achieve leverage during negotiations? That is how people come to question £84k for the figurehead and wonder what it is that the endless committees and meeting achieve? The argument that I have presented and that people have vocalised to me, is that if the RCN is doing so much to fight for nurses, why is it when people becoming fractious, they are instantly blackmailed with the 'put the patients first' argument. Why is criticism so badly recieved? Amost everywhere you go in modern life, organisations are requesting the criticism of their users, in an effort to improve. Is this beyond the scope of the RCN/ANS, are you above reproach? If the members are all just backseat drivers, chipping in with unwarranted and unwelcome observations; why is the car in such a state already? Are the driver or drivers somehow absolved of all balme in this journey? Why is it that the student nursing bursary (for those who receive it) has been allowed to remain unchanged for so long? Has the ANS never questioned the RCN as to the origins of this sorry state of affairs? And if they did, how is that no improvement has followed this? Why was it left to members from the floor to raise these questions at the ANS conference? Why did the ANS committee not leave the rostrum and join the ranks of the disaffected, because it seems that nothing is achieved by sitting at the big table. Lists, letters and meetings seem to have achieved nothing over the years, perhaps a more vigorous approach is needed to the problems. And if the answer is that people are studying as well as politicing, then lets get some sabatical action going, god knows the RCN can afford it. What is the latest little ditty, "turning talk into action"? Please!
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 23:49:35 (BST)
Please contact me!!!!
I take on board all the issues raised here but i can not do anything for anyone unless people contact me. Those who know me know that I am extremely approachable and also extremely contactable. RCN Members in Wales, I have put a message on the online forum asking for comments and suggestions in relation to ANS strategy which is happening in a fortnight. I can only represent you effectively if you talk to me. So you (and the rest of the UK) consult your ANS members and maybe we can do something (that is if we are not too "dipstick-ish" to take your coments on board. I do not want to get to the end of my turn of office to be told I have done nothing when the problem is lack of communication. Belive me its not on my part!!! As for working together I have been informed that the RCN and Unison are working together??? If this is not the case lets get on and sort stuff out!!! So please contact me anyone.... u can email me at the address below or if you want a chat call 07967 055947 (if Im not available leave a message!) Lets use all the resources (little though they are!!) to get a better deal for us all!! Bye 4 now Chris :o)
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 21:22:54 (BST)
ANS whiter than white?
I am sooo glad that the ANS have finally pulled their collective thumb out of their arse and actually acknowleded that their is a problem! All i can say is that it is a bit rich that the ANS is taking the moral highground when they have been responsible for most of the mud slinging. All they have done so far is tell everyone how great they are and slagged evryone else off whilst not actually doing much else. Talk about turning talk into more talk!
AN other p###ed nurse
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 19:42:56 (BST)
A.N. Other
When did you donate your brain to Medical research? Oh don't try and work it out, I will tell you.....It was a LONG time ago. The boys in the Lab have just told me that even with the latest technology they failed to see anything in it.
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 19:22:38 (BST)
Reply to Simon
I've said it before and I'll say it again. PACK IT IN - ALL OF YOU! Simon, you are no better in terms of "prejudging". It would appear that you know very little about Louise's work to improve conditions for students, in fact there are many of us who have taken active part in several campaigns who you know very little about. I hope you term with the ANS is very successful but please be sure that the issues you are addressing are for the benefit of your members. I believe that it is this aspect of the RCN which causes the most concern. Despite evidence to the contrary, the RCN continues to promote changes which students have voiced concerns over, in particular the issue of salaried status. When polled, 67% of students wished to return to a salary yet the RCN seems to think and increased bursary would solve the problems. The reasoning they give is that a return to a salary would mean students lose their supernumary status which is a farce in itself because "supernumary" is meaningless in many clinical settings. There has been a huge amount done on this issue and Louise and myself have been involved quite deeply. Why don't you try to communicate more positively with each other and perhaps the new ANS will be able to work on the issues that really matter. I notice that Gemma Hale is not too keen on uniting students, she would seem to promote a uniqueness associated with the RCN whichis also a shame. (I am referring inparticular to a notice she made in June about a trip to meet Alan Milburn where she told of 5 student nurses being invited from the RCN. There were in fact 10 students invited, 5 from UNISON and five from RCN and BELIEVE IT OR NOT we had the same problems and (almost) the same solutions so it is not all lost hope.) Please do not ignore the students who chose to join UNISON, this is not a competition, it really isn't and likewise it should not be a slanging match. Perhaps if you looked at your UKCC Code of Conduct and read Section 7 we could apply it to each other. (For those of you who don't have a copy it is " recognise and respect the uniqueness and dignity of each patient and client" Why not student?). If you want to know anymore about the work I have been involved in please email me, I would be more than happy to pass on anything that might help you but only if you can respect my choices for doing so. Best regards Lizzie
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 19:13:25 (BST)
Sorry for taking this below the belt but...for those feeling totally frustrated...go and have a damm good shag! Lol
A.N.Other
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 18:52:08 (BST)
Thanks for your comments Wendy!! I would just like to also agree with Simon. As a fellow incoming member of the ANS Executive I feel quite grieved that all these attitudes are flying around. I am all for freedom of speech but when things get personal it really is damaging to a) the individuals (uneccessarily) and also the profession as a whole. I can take personal attacks which don't bother me but hey thats just me! Can we spare a thought for new students either to the course or this site because a) it is unfair b) it is showing anybody who accesses this site that we (as a body) are extremely unprofessional and split. Before I took up the post on the ANS I pledged that I would work together with other unions which is important so we together represent stronger evidence of all nursing students to levels such as government.I hope that this will be the case over the coming year. Because at the end of the day WE are all in the same boat regardless of which union we joined at the beginning of our course. Bickering and useless banter is going to get us nowhere. There is a lot of useful information on this site but it seems to getting lost amongst certain individuals conquests to stir up uneccesary trouble. This is a shame as seeing as the facility of free speech is available here we could be discussing more productive issues and getting a whole more out of the site!!!
Chris Headland <ans_wales@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 18:49:58 (BST)
Get a grip people! It's all very well expressing your opinions but if you haven't got anything better to do other than slag off other people then all as I can say is: 'Get a life!' So much for people entering a 'caring profession' to be proud of! Lol
Wendy Jones <wrjones@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 18:32:04 (BST)
Reply to Louise Brown
Louise, a fellow student nurse and as someone who is about to take position on the ANS, I resent being called a dipstick. How dare you be in a profession which is meant to be caring and be so derogitary to fellow students. Yes we all may not have the same views on certain subjects or beliefs, however you don't know me from adam and to even succomb to prejudging a new committee even before it has met for the first time is beyond me. It seems to me that a lot of people using this web-site need to stop and think about what message they want to portray before other non nursing people read this site, because it would not be the views on the RCN or ANS or any other forum that would shock me, but to think that people who are about to enter into a caring profession as nursing do not make me want to be ill and end up being looked after by you. I am new to the ANS, and yes I do intend to do whatever I can personally to achieve something for student nurses. Please reply to this message. I dhope I have not offended because that is not my intention, but I feel that you cannot judge a book by its covers as the saying goes.
Simon <Hardc21@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 24, 2000 at 16:33:42 (BST)
OT'S
Dear Emma, Some of them are like that, how ever if you get the chance go out with an OT who works in the community. I had a community placement with an OT as part of the team and she was brillant. Some of the new OT's on our ward are really good aswell and pull their weight. Sounds like you got a bad bunch.
Robin <JUJUHOBBES@Hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 22:10:10 (BST)
Mental Health.
I have just spent a week at a NHS, Mental Health Day Hospital. I thought it would be boring, how wrong I was. The staff were very nice and friendly, at least, the nursing staff were. The OTs seem to be a bit snooty and off handed to us lowly students, although in all fairness, we did not see that much of them, because they always had an excuse to be somewhere else, while the Nurses and especially the HCAs had to deal with the problems of trying to keep 30 or so confused clients/Patients from walking off the ward. I came away thinking, that the NHS would be far better off having less, if any OTs and spending the money that would be saved on more Nursing staff, who do most of the group activity anyway. I an really sorry to say this, as I have friends who are training to be OTs.
emma <emmawingate@hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 21:59:17 (BST)
BSE
BULLSHIT-SPREADING-EX.....TORIES. WHO ELSE?
Miles <Milescockling@hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 21:14:44 (BST)
South West Sleep outs
There's two sleep outs organised in the south west over the next week. tomorrow in Exeter outside the RD&E hospital and next week on the 30th by the whickerman just outside Bridgwater in Somerset. Supporters welcome. Looks like I've finally got off my fat arse - as have students all across the south west! For more information contact either me or our nursing student organiser - Dominic Forristal on (01823) - 288031.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 20:58:42 (BST)
Reply to lizzie
Thanks.
ROBIN <JUJUHOBBES@Hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 19:39:01 (BST)
Mental health placements
Robin, I had a foundation placement in an acute admissions ward too but had an excellent time. The unit is within the grounds of the main general hospital for the area and so most of the students are known to nursing staff there. They based their teaching to students based in other branches on helping skills which could be brought to bear within a general setting. I was encouraged to use my communication skills and observational skills a great deal more than I had done in other placements, I was shown how patients admitted to the general hospital but known to the mental health unit could benefit from nursing staff with even a few weeks experience of mental health nursing. The staff in this unit didn't write us off because we weren't MH students, they tried their best to integrate us regardless of our chosen branch - remarkable concept! Anyway, I enjoyed it.
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 18:31:56 (BST)
And again, but different topic. Students & placements
I work on a 20 bedded acute admissions ward, and our students have not been to happy with their placement here. We have both adult, LD, and mental health sudents from common foundation, (that highly useful time for all non-adult students), and branch. Having recently qualified myself. I voluntered to look at and hopefully improve our units' experience as a student placement. I listened to the students complaints, many of which are justified,(lack of structure, crap student jobs and often being left to their own devices), and I was wondering if you lot had any ideas. What do you look for in a placement? Obviously MH student thoughts would be good, but anyone who's been on a mental health placement, tell me what you think.
ROBIN <JUJUHOBBES@Hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 12:45:59 (BST)
Just me again
Sorry, Regarding the last message. Adult nurse students for "Split personality", read "Split personality", thats all you need to know. Mental health students, (good choice by the way), for "Split personality", read "multiple personality disorder" or even "dissociative disorder". Can't be seen to be passing off out of date info can I?
ROBIN <JUJUHOBBES>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 12:05:11 (BST)
Spooky
Hi, unless I've developed a split personality, (something I don't believe in as I think its a therapist induced state that the dodgy Americans get up to), I don't think I sent that last submission. Still it was funny though. I'm to polite to say "shit", without putting a funny "*" symbol in to disguise it you see. Binman no never done that. Oh and former student, thats me.
Robin,(the real Robin) <JUJUHOBBES@Hotmail>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 11:34:27 (BST)
The truth
Actually I was only kidding, I'm not a student nurse at all, I'm a binman and I probably trawl through more shit than the rest of you put together.
Robin <JUJUHOBBES@Hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 23, 2000 at 10:14:09 (BST)
Dave
To lizzie, Dave,F.e.allyn You lot must be adult or what? We don't have this bullsh*t in mental health about how clever we all are. We just get on with it.Dave mate calm down!
Robin <JUJUHOBBES@Hotmail.com>
- Sunday, October 22, 2000 at 23:05:30 (BST)
Dear Kris
Thing is Kris at least if you've been an N/A or HCA then you've got a rough idea what your letting yourself into. I've seen plently of students who, after doing a few placements realise that nursing is not for them.I've been a cook, factory worker, librarian and all sorts of things.But thank good I had abit of experience working as an N/A before starting the job. You know what to expect.
ROB <JUJUHOBBES@HOTMAIL.com>
- Sunday, October 22, 2000 at 22:26:42 (BST)
Oh Dear Oh Dear! I can't leave this site for one minute without some plonker comining up with an arse about face load of tripe. what's the word for it? oh yes: PREJUDGEMENTALISM?
Lynette
- Sunday, October 22, 2000 at 18:28:45 (BST)
TEAMWORK
Hang on a minute, I thought that one of the key factors in nursing was TEAMWORK. Can we all pull together and not be F Allyns?
Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com>
- Sunday, October 22, 2000 at 17:42:21 (BST)
Change
Could everyone please read Kris Nicol's message from today (21.10 16.11hrs) and try to remember that we are meant to be ON THE SAME SIDE. He is right, to facilitate change we need to work on the common ground and stop sniping. Each of us has issues with our training and each of us has ideas on how to change it so let's do it. I have done a lot this year to try and help as those of you out there who know me are aware so don't stop, keep the momentum going. PS Kris and Roger - thanks for your comments re RCN
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 20:47:07 (BST)
No, it really is me!
Gosh I wish I had a turnip for every time I upset someone by not being frightenedto not only have a mind but also to use. I probably am a twat, giving up the computer industry for this, because if it wasn't for the patients I would have gone long ago. Sorry, my mates also helped as did my partner, poor twat is a nurse and a good one. My only concern is for the person that wants to be me? I have been doing it for years and it takes a bit of getting hold of. Perhaps they have missed one of the main prerequisites, putting your own name to the things that you say. That or they are spineless, only they know and it seems they are not telling, so wait with baited breath. I would still like to congratulate the Newbie, they are about to enter an incredibly demanding course, and in truth I was not talking about the hours or the pay. There are not many students in this land who could end up holding someones hand in the small hours of the weekend, safe in the knowledge that they are about to die and you might well be the last person on this earth they see. That seems harder than pottery, though that nice Mr Swayze seemed to get it pretty quickly.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 16:13:05 (BST)
Hows about this then?
Instead of cursing each other and calling each other names how about now here's an idea actually working together to facilitate change? I wonder if the BMA website has quite as many 'love spats'? Why dont we all realise that people have differant opinions and whilst we may not agree with those views then we can at least respect them. However i have to agree with Dave. It seems that there has been an agenda within Nursing that you cant be a good Nurse unless you have been an HCA in the past, and those Nurses who do have other qualifications or experiences that are not Nursing based are sneered at. Its about time that we valued the experience that EVERYONE can bring into the profession. So lets all just calm down have a nice drink of warm milk and try to be a little more constructive.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 16:11:39 (BST)
F Allyn Idiot or Neanderthal?
To F Allyn, If brains were dynamite you wouldnt have enough to blow your nose! Or even if wit was S##t then you would be constipated.
Dave Hawthorn <dt@madasafish.com>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 15:00:28 (BST)
Big Brother's Brother....
Nice one Roger, LMAO.....
Nigel <webmaster@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 14:38:28 (BST)
The truth
Sorry folks, the truth is that I am a complete twat. Just ask anyone who knows me. F Allyn was right all along.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 13:58:34 (BST)
To Dave H
Dave - you disappoint me - I WANTED TO SAY THAT!
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 13:49:10 (BST)
To F Allyn. If Roger's missive was a little to literate for you then heres what he meant in plain English so that neanderthals like yourself can understand. He was saying that due to the circumstances in which Nurses train ie lots of work both physical and educational then the qualification gained at the end of it is worth more than other qualifications eg a nursing qualification would be harder to obtain than say a degree in the history of pottery. Is that now clear, or can we draw the inferance that because someone is literate, educated and has a command of the english language which surpases your own somewhat limited vocabluary, they should not come into Nursing? Do you mean that because he may or may not have a post grad qualification that doesnt involve say a key Nursing skill such as bum wiping, or false teeth cleaning then he is something to be laughed at. This arguement smacks of the isolationism that has held Nursing back for so long. Because he hasnt say worked man and boy as an NA for 20 years before he came into Nursing then anything he has to say or any skills he can bring in are useless? I would say that you are the Nurse that those on the wards take the piss out of, probably because they realise what an intolerant idiot you are.
Dave Hawthorn
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 13:26:58 (BST)
To Despairing Member (!)
It would appear you know very little about Louise Brown if you believe her to be all mouth and no trousers. I have been on three separate campaign events with Lousie including a visit to Whitehall. You have judged without making yourself aware of the facts. Many student nurses have commitments which (believe it or not) surpass the needs of members - ie family, mortgages and - heaven forbid - a desire to qualify. Maybe you should get off your own arse and join in with the hard work, or do you feel that as a member you are entitled to Union slaves?
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 11:16:09 (BST)
Eh?
Roger, which tree are you barking up because I'm sure it's not the same one as the rest of us? I bet you're a post grad aren't you? And I'd also be tempted to put money on your first degree being English Lit or history, or something else far removed from nursing. Anyway, good luck Roger, you'll be great to have on the wards as the nurse who everyone takes the piss out of.
F. Allyn <F.Allyn@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 08:30:35 (BST)
Well done newbie
Congratulations on your first Friday night without a shift and without the wherewithall to do anything with it. Salvation can be found in assignment writing at such times as the self-satisified smugness elicited by getting the work done well before the deadline can make watching others panic immensely gratifying. I cannot vouch for this but hose that do tell me that it is the case. I normally have to sweep a fiver's worth of Happy Shopper Viking Turbo lager off my desk to try and find my PC on the morning of submission (I have always found that word describes so much more than handing something in). Hope you enjoy yourself, ther is a lot of 'reward' (sic) in the job, even if none of it is financial. Upon completion and registration you will be able to sit in a public place and look at the thrusting and thriving masses, safe in the knowledge that your qualification was twice as hard to come by.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, October 21, 2000 at 00:10:52 (BST)
What Am I Thinking????
Can't believe it really....I'm about to enter the world of the student, and here I am posting messages on the chat page at 10.30pm on a Friday night!! Hopefully, by next week, I will have got myself a life! (Although I am also working as I too will be needing extra pocket money when finally get bursary paid) Right, definitely off to sharpen my pencils (although will have can of cheap lager just to aid my concentration - only 99p for 4 cans, so no alcohol!)
Student Newbie (again)
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 22:32:56 (BST)
Catheters etc
I always thought that catheters were removed (or even "installed") at midnight just so ward staff can start a nice new fluid balance sheet without having to do any difficult sums.....but I'm sure the researcher on the subject will be thinking - yeh, right! Erm, I am starting (day 1)my Adult DipHe training this coming Monday, and am having sleep-less nights worrying if my pencils are sharp! But I have been reading this site for a few weeks now, and it's making me think "oh my God, what am I doing?", but on the other hand, I find it extremely addictive (surely a bad sign for a newbie?) The thing I do feel though is that you all feel genuinely passionate about your views on nursing (& the politics) and this in itself I'm sure makes all of you brilliant nurses in your own way....It's good to talk!! I was thinking of following the sheep next week & joining the RCN (well, only a tenner a year - and you get a diary at Xmas!!) but I'm not so sure now...I will peruse the sales literature & make an informed decision (like who gives best discounts - I'm easily bought...baaa baaa) Oh, I was a bit miffed to discover that the hospital I'm being based at doesn't automatically let us have free parking (unhelpful person on phone said she didn't know when we would get permits & guessed that pay & display would be 70p per day) and the cost is £3.50 a day which is rip-offs-ville (so I shall be parking on nearby housing estate for free, and expect my car to be a burnt out shell on bricks at 4.30pm...aaaggghhh) Okay, well I'm off then, have a nice weekend all of you.
Student Newbie
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 22:27:45 (BST)
Time for a change?
Maybe we need a new union? I joined the RCN because they soley represented registered nurses (and those about to become). Why isn't there a choice? If you fancy a laugh, take a look at the resolutions that were passed during the "landmark" vote. www.rcn.org.uk/agm2000/results.html
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 20:22:29 (BST)
Advice
I am a soon to qualify adult nurse and I am thinking about doing my nurse cadet training to be able to fulfill Christine's dream, what organisation could I get indemnity insurance from.......?
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 20:21:47 (BST)
Check out the RCN website and see just how much isn't being done there!
Andy, as a member of Unison you have the advantage of belonging to a union that is actively trying to raise public awareness of student hardship by way of the sleepouts that are being arranged. Do not be lulled into thinking that the grass is greener in the RCN's backgarden, if you look closely you will see that they have in fact paved over their garden. Check out the RCN website and see how they censor their own members comments.
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 19:59:33 (BST)
Get Of Your fat arse!!!!
Louise, you are very vocal, but what are you actually doing for us as members, all I can see is your political hate for other unions!! At the end of the day we are not a super-race at Unison and are getting nowhere fast with you spending your time letting of libelous steam and total bull Sh1T. Come on prove what kind of a student rep/voice (self appointed !!) you are to our own members organisation and see something constructive for a change!!! Cos at the moment you are doing nowt for me and my college so am off to find out about other possibilities!! Andy
Dispairing Unison Member!!!
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 16:57:50 (BST)
Leeds Sleep Out - 3rd Nov
This is a message for anyone who is in two minds as to whether to join the Sleep Out on Friday 3 Nov at 6pm outside Dept of Health/W Yorks Playhouse. A UNISON survey in Yorks & Humber revealed some stark facts Huddersfield - over half n/students are in debt. More than 80% owe more than £1k. A third are in debt by over £5k. 64% have to work to subsidise their bursary and say that this affects their studies. Sheffield - over two-thirds in debt. A third of these owe more than £3k. Over 60% have another job. Leeds - more than half of n/students in debt. Half in debt by over £2k. Over 50% do additional work. Hull - nearly 60% in debt. Two-thirds own more than £1k. Nearly 70% work. York - 86% in debt. Half by more than £5k. Over 70% work. Bradford - 65% in debt. Two thirds owe more than £1k. Three quarters work. Even so many students cannot work because they have child care responsibilities, lack of nursery places, too expensive. Other work shifts and weekends. Student nurses work as waitresses £3.25ph, bar work £3.60ph; cleaner £3.60 ph, driver £3.30; sales assist £4ph. One student nurse, with young dependants, has to work from home at £2.50 ph! Please join us on the 3rd. Help campaign to restore salaries £9-10k. UNISON wants students to remain in higher education and retain their supernumerary status!
Karen Towner <k.towner@unison.co.uk>
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 13:26:10 (BST)
that old dinosaur
Just how I will be able to survive knowing that old battle axe has pissed off - I just feel sorry for those who will have to put up with her from now on. I can't imagine those dipsticks at RCN/ANS will have any revolutionary ideas in their heads about listening to what their members want. Heaven forbid! They will wash your mouths out with soap if you dare mention such a concept.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 12:41:22 (BST)
SO.......
It wasn't the KGB or M15 or even Lady Hancock. It was MFI.......MESSAGES-FOUND-INTACT. Hehehe. (Has her Ladyship really resigned?)
emma <emmawingate@hotmail.com>
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 07:05:53 (BST)
Christine Hancock resigns! Read all about it on the Nursing Times web site www.nursingtimes.net and the RCN's discussion page on www.rcn.org.uk
One Who Hears!
- Friday, October 20, 2000 at 00:09:45 (BST)
Thank you.
for restoring the messages, especially all my dribble. I love everyone really, and I respect their views as I an sure they do mine.......Now what else can I get them going with?
Mike <mikehodd@lineone.net>
- Thursday, October 19, 2000 at 19:54:53 (BST)
The RCN wants to take over the world!!!
If you want an example of how the RCN is desperate to eliminate all hints of dissatisfaction and anyone who deviates from the 'party line' is likely to be censured or shot then go and read the RCN's own bullitin board. The moderators remove and edit any of the postings they agree with. Thats why i like this site. Allthough i dont necassarily agree with some of the postings, it is great to see all types of views represented. And because the RCN cant edit me on this site i can tell you what i really think. There are those within the RCN who would have you believe that all is well, yet scratch the surface and break free of the Stazi like enforcers and there is something rotten in the state of Denmark. The RCN should come with a warning, 'this union will do absoloutely nothing to change things for you and you will have to just accept things as they are.' To top it all the sainted Hancock thinks she can justify her huge gargantuan wage on the basis that her counterpart in the BMA recieves more than she does! Well doctors recieve more than Nurses but does that necessarily make it right? anyway ive had my moan and would just like to say that i am really enjoying my placement and cant wait to go to work (honest)
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 19, 2000 at 18:25:14 (BST)
hello Lizzie
lizzie, it is a real shame that you cannot make the sleep out, but everyone has so many commitments and our children are our main priority (i just left my lesson early as i had no-one to take my daughter to nursery and on one occasion an extremely nice lecturer let ellie who is nearly four come into the lecture with me so i would not have to miss it!). any way there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for the sleep out so it should be a big success (i hope). i hope everything is going ok with you, take care anne-marie
anne-marie osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Thursday, October 19, 2000 at 13:34:12 (BST)
MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF EVIL
Midnight catheter removal. I'm really interested in the efficacy of this. My dad used to say the best time to sow new grass-seed on your lawn was at midnight on the night of the full moon. Believe it or not, there's some scientific evidence to back this up. Could it be the same with catheters???
JB
- Thursday, October 19, 2000 at 11:57:59 (BST)
New nursing website - your direct link to major nursing websites!!
Thornbury Nursing Services has just relaunched "The Portfolio of British Nursing Websites" offering direct links to major nursing websites, including the world's busiest! Take a look for feature sites, guest sites, latest nursing news, and much more. Tell us what you think? Click Here
Greg <webmaster@brutish-nursing.com>
- Thursday, October 19, 2000 at 11:54:42 (BST)
Missing messages!!!???
Sorry for the missing messages folks, slight technical problem!!, all of them have now been restored, and yes it is most definitely "free chat" everyone, give it your best shot!!
Greg <webmaster@brutish-nursing.com>
- Thursday, October 19, 2000 at 11:41:22 (BST)
What's going on....
Sorry did Barry White just walk in?
Censar, Sensir I can't even spell it let alone do it here :-)
Nigel <webmaster@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 22:18:06 (BST)
Big Brother's Brother....
Uuummm yes.....
I'll let Greg now about it. We've got a copy of all the posts so nothing is lost :-)
Nigel <webmaster@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 22:12:38 (BST)
What is going on?
I was really enjoying reading the banter between Mike and all the rest of you, then whoose it's all gone. Who is responsible? KGB, MI5, or CIA. I know! I bet it was that women called Hancock, yar it must have been the RCN. Oh yar, thats who it was guys. On a serious note. We do have free speech in this chat....Don't we?
emma <emmawingate@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 22:06:44 (BST)
Abra Cadabra!!!
Nigel - all the messages dated 9th October up to 18th October have disappeared! It's a real bummer 'cos I was in the middle of a pressing debate with Mike about starched uniforms!!! What a let down.........
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 21:51:13 (BST)
Big Brother's Brother.....
Of course there's someone here :-) Actually this is a recording I made earlier!!
To Lynette and Ange what messages are missing?
Nigel <webmaster@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 20:38:19 (BST)
EH?
Just to add what has happened to all the messages ? is there anybody there to answer?
Lynette
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 20:02:30 (BST)
RCN
I have always known the RCN are naff. Thats why I am in UNISON. Hancock is far too snobby for my liking and cares for no one but herself.
emma <emmawingate@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 19:08:59 (BST)
The RCN is Crap. I have only just realised this. Call me slow if you like, but i now know that many of the individuals who work for the RCN are shallow self centered , idiots who wouldnt have an idea unless it was officially sanctioned by Christine Hancock herself. Anyway hopefully the RCN will go bankrupt due to massive overspending by Mizz Hancock on such vital things as new outfits and stationary and then Nursing will not be held back by this excuse of a union.
Simieon Crawfoot <crozza1059@btinternet.com>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 18:54:28 (BST)
What's happened to all the messages?!!!!!!!!
Ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 17:33:48 (BST)
What chance have we got....
For a career or profession, when one receives replys like I have had from the green behind the ears know alls of this world. Is it any wonder that we have to search the universe for new recruits because we can not find the right ones here. Some of you are too defensive for your own good and, I suspect, always will be. Thank God that the staff that I work with are not as stroppy as some of you lot.
- Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 07:32:21 (BST)
To Mike
I suppose it depends on the quality of 'experience', don't you think? 'Experienced' nurses can learn a thing or two off new recruits. You'd do well to remember this........ Ange
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 23:37 (BST)
People who live under stones
Mike you talk a load of crap. I had 10 years care "experience" when I began my training and have learned HUGE amounts since then mainly to rationalise what I have been doing all these years. Experience is worth diddly if you can't account for yourself! Get off your box
Lizzie <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 22:26 (BST)
Sleep out - Anne-marie
Hi Anne-marie, Howya? I've just started my final year rotation and will not be able to make the sleep-out on the 3rd, I'm on a gorgeous 12 and a half hour shift surgical ward and to be honest need the time with my kids! I'm still working on my petitions though and keep bugging the hospital about rents. We've managed to get the tenancy agreements changed but they still won't admit the breach! Sorry I haven't been in touch for ages!
Lizzie Dyer <lizzie.dyer@unisonfree.net>
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 22:24 (BST)
Experience vs common sense
Oh yes oh knowledgeable one!! I shall endeavour to hang on every word the experienced (And often out of date) predecessors say.. Perhaps Mike i would respect your EXPERIENCE and listen to what you say, if what you said wasnt quite such idiotic rubbish. EXPERIENCE counts for nothing unless it is backed up with common sense so when you stop posting such utter garbage i will respect your experience. Does this sound fair?
Dave Hawthorn <dt@madasafish.com>
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 22:23 (BST)
The point is.....
I am not talking about seeing dolly brids in a nice clean starched uniforms. What I am saying is, whatever type of uniform you wear it should be smart as well as functional and not look sloppy or just thown on, like a lot do at present. I have the greatest respect for anyone who has the wish to nurse others, from the grade As upwards. The reason that we have a big problem recruiting and keeping staff is because of all the mistakes that have been made over the years. When I started, and you can mock as much as you like, but things were so much better then than they are now. Those of us who have been in the job for years have one thing that you new ones don't have, and that is EXPERIENCE. One day you too will have it, but until then you would all do well to note what your more EXPERIENCE colleagues tell you.
Mike <mikehodd@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 20:49 (BST)
Removal of urinary catheters at midnight
I am looking for research articles relating to the removal of urinary catheters at midnight V removal at any other time during the day in relation to patients going on to develop urine retention.
Sharon Kenwrick <s.l.kenwrick@wlv.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 20:17 (BST)
Need advice re: where to study nursing
My wife and I would really appreciate information on where to get qualified in nursing. I live in Bermuda and have a British passport(if that means anything). We are 30 years old and are keen to know what we need to do, where a good training can be obtained, costs involved and length of time. We hope to find work on a part time basis (anything will do) and have a 6 year old daughter who will, of course, need to attend school. Please offer any advice. We'd be most grateful. Thanks, Ian & Aracely Mackie e-mail aracely@ibl.bm fax 441-295-8821
Ian Mackie <aracely@ibl.bm>
- Tuesday, October 17, 2000 at 19:56 (BST)
Mike - you say you do 'not wish to see your colleagues underwear', yet the old-fashioned uniform you so obviously miss, did nothing for the digntiy of female nurses. This is making me confused!!! I suggest you move into the 21st century, like all the other nurses who qualified in the same era as you. At the end of the day we are all here to do the same job - I don't think a smart trouser suit compromises patient care, do you? Ange
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 23:00 (BST)
And I meant to say
I think that they should be called "customers". If you pay for a service then you are a "customer", in fact you have a contract, some measure of satisfaction. When I think about some of the customer care that clients/patients/users recieve, well, for all the triple heart bypass success stories are the 'troublesome' old incontinent with the call button strategically out of reach.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 22:56 (BST)
Starched Uniforms and creased minds!
Well Mike mate one thing i can say to you is that my Uniform is ALLWAYS clean, ironed and tidy but i dont think that that has anything to do with my ability as a nurse. Perhaps you also believe that the youth of today could do with a short shrift in national service to put some backbone into em...I thaught that the starched colonel Blimp ideas had gone out with the arc mate. But im glad that someone from the 'in my day' brigade is here to put me right. you know what, im very fed up with people denigrating P2000, i think that the majority of students today are hard working and have the ability to do and THINK as well. Anyway im off to starch my uniforms and iron creases into my Y-fronts. (I know it will make me a better Nurse!)
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 22:43 (BST)
Hello again , Becky I don't know anything about those colleges but what I do know is that it is normally a personal choice in that we all have our preferred way of doing things. I don't think that experience will be a problem.. I didn't have the experience or the qualifications when I applied for the direct entry midwifery at Herts Uni, but my enthusiasm was enough to convince them of my dedication! Lynette
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 20:56 (BST)
ooh
Mike you have some issues! I can understand why you are annoid but I think the point that you have failed to comprehend is that we are joining Nusing because we want to be part of a positive change. We are not the problem the Govenment Ministers are! You cannot slander our ability you don't know us or our potential we are all individuals ....speaking of films has anyone seen the "life of Brian"?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 20:42 (BST)
Leave reincarnating dinosaurs to Speilberg
I am pretty sure that I could manage to carry out many of the daily tasks (that are allocated to me on the ward by those who STILL INSIST on treating me as an imbicile because I am P2K) in a sarong! I have seen surgeons complete amazing microsurgery in dirty shoes, and seen SEN's in razor sharp creases display a stunning lack of knowledge. Birmingham HEartlands is being managed by a bunch of 'managers', who have turned the place around in double quick time and have it on track. Admittedly a lot of the 'ideas' Frau Thatchler imposed during the Fourth Reich were off target, but the idea that the present situation could be rectified with a liberal sprinkling of starch is risible. Funny hats and unfunny humans belong in the past, along with the kind of experiences people endured in hospitals that were Doctor centred, not patient centred. I am glad to be about to practise as a questioning practioner not a sycophant. Hate t! o disagree...
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 20:40 (BST)
Reply to Matto
Sorry Matto, you have lost me. No, I have never seen a carry on film. I don't need to see films to make me laugh or cry mate. Some of the things the patients say make me laugh. Some of the things politicians and so-called EXPERTS have done over the years to our NHS make me want to cry. For example. Referring to PATIENTS as CLIENTS or USERS. As from 1991. (Start date of P2000.) Fact. A person under nursing care is a PATIENT, PATIENT,PATIENT. Introducing private firms into the NHS WAS A DISGRACE. The meals cost more and taste less. Fewer domestic staff,on lower pay, yet they are given more and more to do. Is it any surprise that our Hospitals are dirty. Making out-patients and those with sick relatives pay to use the HOSPITAL car park IS A DISGRACE. UNIFORMS ARE A DISGRACE, THOSE WHO HAVE ONE. I don't care what underwear my colleagues have or do not have on. I do not wish to know. It has nothing to do with back pain what one wears it is to do with cost. When the Matrons went, so did most of the discipline, pride, sence of belonging, professionalism, SMART UNIFORMS, clean hospitals, low cost accomadation, good food. Students who learned to be nurses where the patients are ON THE WARDS, instead of a day or two a week in a class room miles away from the real world. The latest stupid thing is so-called SUPER NURSES. Most of the pepole that I have worked with have been SUPER NURSES. What makes this new lot special. I don't have the time or energy to sit and watch films mate.
Mike <mikehodd@lineone.net>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 20:15 (BST)
Advice & Info
I'm seriously thinking about taking the plunge and applying to undertake the Midwifery Dip next year (2001)... probably at either Surrey Uni, Guildford or possibly King's College,London. Is anyone out there studying at either of these places - any advice on the application/interview process, and what are the pros/cons of these places, etc. etc. - any imput, whatsoever, would be greatly appreciated. I'm also a bit concerned as I haven't had any 'caring' experience at all - will this have a huge effect on my chances of being accepted and what's the best way around it???
Becky Knight <becky.knight@2lk.com>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 14:32 (BST)
NEWS NEWS NEWS
Has anyone seen the news today ? They are running important stories about nursing staff crisis in the NHS! good time to leap they are blaming the Government ...Well we know for a fact that student Nurses are dropping out left right and centre because of the pay problems and our status I think it is brewing up at a perfect time to show the Government where they are going wrong. By the way Lord Hunt (SECRETARY UNDER STATE) replied to me and said that I should give up my training and start working within the Health service and hope that they might pay for my education. WOT ????????????
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 13:50 (BST)
NHS
Mike, what the hell are you talking about altogether??? You've seen one too many 'Carry On' film mate.
Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com>
- Tuesday, October 16, 2000 at 09:45 (BST)
Re:Mike Hood
our uniforms are better for our backs mike. no more twisting and straining to hide our knickers when we lift a patient (even though theres a no lifting policy......joke!!!!!!). Its no good nurses looking pristine in starched uniforms if we are all off sick with bad backs.
sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Monday, October 16, 2000 at 00:38:30 (BST)
Nursing in Canada
Can anyone help me? I am an adult nursing branch student who is interested in emigrating to canada. However I can't find any info about this. I have tried the immigration pages but nursing is not included in the occupations list. If anyone can let me know of an agency that could help or put me in touch with a british nurse who emigrated to canada recently I would appreciate it. Michael
Michael <wilkoboy@ic24.net>
- Sunday, October 15, 2000 at 20:50:22 (BST)
Well now, very interesting postings!!
I have just finished my first set of three nights.Quite interesting experience, however, my mentor was shouted at by the ward manager for letting me go on time because she decided that I should do the hand over! Some people just don't know that cheap labour can only be pushed so far!! SUPERNUMERY MY BUM.Anyway, Alexandra you said you want to do midwifery, are you already qualified? I have already got myself hooked up with the midwifery 18 month degree for when I finish my training, I would like to work on the SCBU. I don't see a reason why doing midwifery should be a bad move you are open to many more career opertunities and it is all experience under your belt. AND nearly all of the long established Nurses etc have done a bi to f this and that you need to find your ground somewhere. "Dupsy"-I am afraid that the universities and placements alike take the view that you were aware that there are these consequences should be anticipated and allowed for, Sorry.RE. Matrons and rag bags... I am worried that if you maintain that view on the NHS I don't think we have any hope of improving on the real problems. I was brought up with the opinion that if everybody dropped one piece of litter then we would be in a right mess.You can't help Nursing by cowering out, Change will come from within , won't it?
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, October 15, 2000 at 20:17:21 (BST)
Uniforms!!!
Firstly a reply to Mike Hodd - many changes that have taken place are for the best - you mention uniforms today as being 'ragbags'. I would call them comfortable, dignified and respectable and far more appealing that a 'mini see-through dress'. I for one will not work for a trust that would expect me to wear such a uniform that would provide patients with 'endless entertainment'. Did anyone read the Nursing Times this week? Seems like most nurses are turning to drink....why doesn't that suprise me.........
Ange
- Saturday, October 14, 2000 at 21:40:17 (BST)
Matrons!
I go back further than 1967 to the days when Matrons were respected senior members of our profession. I am not saying that we should revert entirely to the 'good old days' when student nurses were very much used as 'pairs of hands'. Students of today would not tolherate being treated as we were but there was some good in the old system. We worked hard,(48 hours per week), split shifts, three months rotational day and night duty with your holiday always falling within the day duty period. Some lectures had to be attended before commencing a night shift or immediately following. How we stayed awake after working throughout a 12 hour period I will never know, but we did! Matron did a ward round every day and a student nurse was expected to accompany her and be prepared to give full details of every patient's condition and their treatment. The pillow openings had to face away from the door, (something to do with the sand blowing in on patients in the Crimean war I was to learn later) and the bed castors all facing inwards. The sheets had to be turned back over the blankets a finger to elbow length from the top. Locker tops were inspected for dust as were the curtain and bed rails. The damp dusting having previously been undertaken by we mere students. Sometimes, on the rare occassion when the ward maid assigned to the ward had not appeared, we students were expected to sweep the ward floor as this had to be done before we could serve breakfast and in some cases feed patients. The sluice in which we spent many a long hour cleaning bed pans, bottles and rubber mackintoshes came under particular scrutiny by Matron. However, if a nurse became ill, Matron was immediately notified and became the-dare I say it-'Mother figure' who became personally involved with supervising the care and well being 'her' nurses. We were bedded on the private wing with the full silver service treatment. She was the one to accompany any nurse, student or qualified, to theatre if that was where their condition took them. She was the one to come and check on one's welfare every day either on the ward or in the sick bay in the Nurses' home. She even sometimes brought the flowers and fruit! What did this give us ? A sense of being part of a caring profession, caring for ourselves as well as patients. That sense of being cared for by one's peers has now largely gone I fear, ask any member of WING (the RCN's Work Injured Nurses' Group) how they have been treated by their colleagues! What has also gone has been clean wards, decent food, good hospital living accomodation to name but a few. What has taken their place in the absence of Matrons is the feeling that nobody cares now about the welfare of nurses and students. We now have dirty wards, malnourished patients, MRSA, no one to say "Enough is enough, I will not allow my nurses to be abused in the way they are now". I do not envy the students of today and am left wondering how long they will stay within the profession once they are qualified? After all they have ideal CVs to become members of airline cabin crews, earning in many cases well in excess of £30.000 per year with all the perks of duty free shopping, low cost world travel and being respected employees!
Peggy Pryer <ppryer@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 14, 2000 at 18:54:09 (BST)
re placement
it is very sad that most placement are not family friendly. i thought that it was supposed to be flexible. for us who have children they do not seem to understand the plight of this. Can it be a bit more flexible, so that other students will benefit from it.
dupsy <dupeabisuga@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, October 14, 2000 at 18:34:42 (BST)
Reply to Mike
Thank you for the candour! Refreshing to see and/or hear that there is a bit of life in the troops. Cannot agree with all of the sentiments but I can see where the tone is coming from. You do not mention Matron, were those happy memories? Glad to hear that you have removed the financial Albatross and are able to keep the gnomes at arms length. Banks are funny things, they lend you an umbrella while the sun shines, and when it rains, they want it back.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, October 13, 2000 at 23:36:39 (BST)
A disgrace.
I started work in the NHS in 1967. Over the years I have seen many changes. Some good, some bad. The very bad ones are as follows: 1. Closing the schools of nursing education and doing away with the cadet training, closing the nurses homes. 2. The introduction of private companies into the NHS was, and still is a total disgrace. Rip off merchants. 3. The demise of the uniform into the rag bag type that it is today, that is if you wear one at all. 4. Trusts. The only reason that the Tories introduced the Trust into the NHS was so that it would be easier to privatise them. 5.Care in the ccommunity. What a sick joke. I could go on and on but it would just depress me. Oh yes the good, well we don't have a mortgage now, so I don't have to work for any agency to make my money up. My advice to anyone who is considering a job in nursing, FORGET IT,UNTIL THE POWERS THAT BE, CAN SHOW THAT THEY CAN APPRECIATE THOSE OF US WHO WORK THERE NOW.WITH THE SAME PAY THAT THE POLICE GET. CHEAP ACCOMADATION FOR STUDENTS AND HCAs. PROPER INDUCTION COURSES FOR ALL STAFF, BEFORE YES BEFORE, THEY START ON THE WARDS.
mikehodd <mikehodd@lineone.net>
- Friday, October 13, 2000 at 20:59:00 (BST)
thinking about becoming a nurse midwife
hi to anyone , i just don't understand myself, it has been like one month, i decided to change my career, i want to become a nurse midwifeeo please let me know if i am making a good choice i think i will be very good at it, i love people, and i lkie to care for people to much
alexandra <befalex@aol.com>
- Friday, October 13, 2000 at 20:44:41 (BST)
FRIDAY 13th............
Why do I feel nervous today?
Freddie
- Friday, October 13, 2000 at 07:39:18 (BST)
Heather
Hi there, about your question, the majority of people on this newsgroup are British and we do not follow the LPN system, you may wish to post your question on the newsgroup sci.med.nursing or similar ones which have a predominantly American audience. Hope this helps...... oh and to the person who wrote that RCN students get a discount to Nursing Standard, all nursing students are eligible to a discount with Nursing Times through the year subscription system, just thought I would let you know.
Claire <ClaireMacL@aol.com>
- Wednesday, October 11, 2000 at 23:51:03 (BST)
Help!!!
I have just recently graduated from LPN school, and now nobody will hire me in the medical field because I don't have any experience..I want to start off as a Medical Assistant and then when I get my license I want to be an LPN.. Can somebody give me some tips on what to do??
Heather Nelson <achhln@bellsouth.net>
- Wednesday, October 11, 2000 at 18:56:44 (BST)
Tell us!!
Come on 'Midlander' dont be shy........ Well said Penny..........Nursing Standard does not print things that may make the RCN or its illustrious leaders sound at all s####e
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at 20:35:16 (BST)
RE: Just a thought
Why don't you contact Nursing Standard and ask them to consider this good idea of yours. I am sure they would be very receptive.. Good Luck
Damien
- Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at 18:42:06 (BST)
just a thought
I seem to have heard somewhere that the majority of nursing students who choose to join a representative organisation join the RCN. If this is so, then the chances are that they are more likely to read the Nursing Standard rather than the Nursing Times as they get discount on their subs to NS. This may not be true but I am making that assumption. So what I am trying to say is to confirm the findings of the NT surevey why not get the NS to a similar survey. This could then be used to influence the RCN Council to revise their policy. If however it shows that more are in favour of a revised and improved bursary then it surely means that Unison should consider changing their policy. After all have not Unison activists asked the RCN to support the majority view??
- Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at 15:39:12 (BST)
2,000 Salried Nursing Students
On my diploma course we have over 25% of nursing students already on salaries (many on £11,500 per year - B grade) they are some of the 2,000 seconded nursing students nationally. Their is no difference between what they do and we do - they are no less or more supernumerary - They just get twice what we do and get maternity rights and paid holidays. Regards Penny
Penny <penny145@g>
- Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at 13:44:40 (BST)
SLEEP OUT
I THINK THE SLEEP OUT IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND I WILL CERTAINLY BE THERE! "HOPE THE WEATHER HOLDS OUT".
IAN WILLIAMSON <H9704101@HUD.AC.UK>
- Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at 13:38:47 (BST)
SHORT OF NURSES
I've just been on first assignments. Shocking lack of staff in general on my unit and wards. Told situation is getting worse because everybody is leaving due to stress and workloads faster than newly trained nurses are coming on board. I don't think I want to work like this. How do other new starters feel, or am I just unlucky in my hospital choice?
'Midlander'
- Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at 01:26:50 (BST)
Frustration!!
Okay I am one frustrated student!! I am a Post RN student doing my degree. I went to college for three years then stright to University. I feel like nothing I am being taught has anything to do with the real world of nursing, I mean these Phd's walking around have had their noses in the books so long they have no idea what the real nurse faces. I have yet to practice any where because I fear the pressure of nursing today. So in University i sit... sheltered from the real world for a couple more years, I find life as a student frustrating, especially knowing I am entiring practice soon, and it looks scary out there!! can any one offer me hope??
Cherie <dcol00103393@hotmail.com>
- Monday, October 09, 2000 at 04:41:48 (BST)
Bursary vs. salary - and surviving my first week...
Hello! I have just survived my first week as a student nurse - you know, introductions, welcomes and even more introductions etc. Our cohort has just about managed to stay awake for the duration... and we are now more than ready to start studying. I now feel that I can speak as minority... I.E. I don't want to be salaried, but I do want a larger bursary. This is the only way that student nurses can remain supernumary and therefore be entitled to essential study days. Although salaried status seems appealing - recieving pay for what you actually do - in the long term, what student nurses really need, is the time to study and learn from their experiences. Maybe if we look at shift enhancements as a privilege of qualified staff it would surely be an incentive to complete the 3yrs training as best we can. However, I do think that an increased bursary should take account of unsociable shifts and be calculated accordingly. Another way of looking at this dilema is to take Hotel and Catering degree students as an example, whereby they take a years' work experience and get paid for doing so. So, for example, we do 2yrs training and then get 1yr 'working' in several different settings, say up to 3 placements of our choice, and get paid an according salary - somewhere between NVQ3 and Staff Nurse - then return to full-time students.... still with the increased bursary. It's just an idea, and I know that this may be viewed as unacceptable, but then isn't the present system? At least a sandwich course offers more scope for experience. This idea will be abhorant to some for reasons that I have already thought of myself, I.E. longer training, skills abuse and many other flaws, of which I hope you will enlighten me, but any idea is better than none -????. Am I alone in thinking that it is not just the pay (or lack of it) that needs reviewing, but the whole of our training? As I said, just an idea. What are your views?
Donna <d-carey@cwcom.net>
- Sunday, October 08, 2000 at 23:46:14 (BST)
ps again
WELL DONE SARAH, YOU LUCKY BUGGER!
Lynette
- Sunday, October 08, 2000 at 19:55:49 (BST)
Well said that there person
I am shocked that people are still having to explain this. I understand that it is an intellectual conclusion to come to; "we knew what we were getting into when we started". Yes we did and I knew that I had to do something about it I wanted to this training regardless but that does not mean that I am going to be a mug and let a bunch of inbred sat on there arses politicians say that people like you (Lisa) and me have to live like this. I started this course knowing the financial hardship I went ahead with it because I want to be a nurse there is nothing else I want to do...so what should I have done if I looked at the bursary and squeeled chosen to be apathetic? Cheers Kris, for aiding me onto my soap box.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, October 08, 2000 at 19:54:00 (BST)
Warm, Pink and self Satisfied
Lisa following your arguement through to its logical conclusion then lots of the things that we enjoy today would not of happened. I am sure that Emily Pankhurst was aware of the difficulties that women faced before she became involved with the sufferagette movement. I think that Martin Luther King was more than aware of the situation that faced the Black people in America yet he still did something about it. If we follow your arguement that because we all knew what we were getting into before we did it and we should accept it, then Emily Pankhurst would not of bothered to fight for womens rights and Martin Luther King would not of started the civil rights movement in America. Women would still be chained to the kitchen sink and there would still be segregation in America. The idea that because we are aware of something before we get involved with it, is not a reason to accept the status quo. Why should we simply stop whinging and get on with it? Why should we accept something that is clearly unacceptable? It is because of you and people like you that live in the fuzzy, pink and warm glow of your own self satisfiedness that Nursing is in the state that it is. Perhaps the reason that we feel we have to whinge is because of attitudes lke yours?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 08, 2000 at 19:08:24 (BST)
Au contraire Lisa, I think that if not rose coloured spec' then perhaps blinkers?
Awareness and acceptance are not the same as agreement and that is the really basic premise of a lot of the content on this site. A great many nurses train and find the going hard, the money tight, the conditions poor. Some also experience harrasment, bullying and witness appalling patient care. Nearly all do the square root of FA about it. They knew it would not be easy when they came into the job, they knew what they were up against. So, like the vast majority of those picking up a wage but far too concerned about their own self to rock any boat, they help maintain the invidious situation. So perhaps what is needed is somewhere, where people can voice opinions and not feel alone. Where a person can say the things that they feel, without fear of betrayal by those who would happily watch nursing crushed and replaced by generic healthcare.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Saturday, October 07, 2000 at 14:34:20 (BST)
Elitism in nursing
Ray - You say why should it make a difference if students get a salary or a bursary. I think its pretty simple - 67% of students (NT 1st Sept) want a salary while only 38% say they would be satisfied with a substantially increased bursary. This is the only attempt to date to ask students what we want so the big question must be why are the DoH and the RCN opposed to salaried status at the moment. The DoH - well, its obvious that they are running through a cost driven exercise. The less they can get away with the better as far as they are concerned. The RCN - well I beleive what hides behind all their arguments is they are running through a 'status' driven exercise. Somehow the higher 'status' (through moving to an all degree course which I beleive is their long term aim) attached to nursing the more 'professional' we will become. And if a few students are sacrificed at that altar to 'professionalism' so what - I'm sure Hancock and her sucessors will consider it a sacrifice well worth making. All the time that nursing is run by nurse academics us students will be hostages to their narrow minded elitism.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Saturday, October 07, 2000 at 13:23:10 (BST)
CONGRATS SARAH
I hope that feeling lasts forever, well done and good luck in your newly qualified career ;-)
Claire <ClaireMacL@aol.com>
- Saturday, October 07, 2000 at 00:09:11 (BST)
yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'VE DONE IT!!!!!!!!! I'VE PASSED MY FINALS!!!!!!!!! DID ANYTHING EVER FEEL THIS GOOD????
sarah <sarahandkev@supanet.com>
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 23:46:17 (BST)
I Don't Wear Rose Coloured Specs
In response to the anonymous author of "Lisa...a response from a whinger" and Louise Brown. Funnily enough I am myself a student nurse, I receive a bursary every month and I manage to survive. It pisses me off that I don't get alot of money together with everyother student nurse, however I was aware of the EXACT figure I was going to receive before I started the course two and a half years ago! I also take active participation in fighting along with my union to increase our pay. This doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated with the fact that the majority of this chat room is based around this subject. The other sites like this one that I have found, I have actually learned from, where questions are being asked and facts being disclosed that are of importance to our learning. I don't need to be reminded of what bursary we get, or of what union is doing what, I am already aware of what is going on and so is the majority of people visiting this site. I respect the fact that this issue is of importance, it does not mean that the subject has to exhausted. And despite what this message implies I am actually interested in these topics, it's just that there is a limit, and I think if you care to scroll down and read EVERY message in this chat room I think you will find that these topics have been repeated time and time again and the same issues raised each time. I also stick by what I said B4,if you chose this job for the benefits u would gain rather than the actual work you would be doing then you are in the wrong profession, you were aware of what the job entailed B4 u began so why STILL complain about it now, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! And as for poor placements and poor lectures, excellent, that is something different to talk about and to discuss, which not all of us are subjected to. One last thing, to the anonymous whinger, if your attitude is to resort to insults then I think you're lacking a quality a decent nurse should have, therefore I think you would be better off leaving this low paid job and finding something you'd be more suited to. P.S I hope you don't have this attitude with your patients, or maybe that is why you feel your placements are so poor.
Lisa <lsfg@handbag.com>
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 23:43:52 (BST)
P.S
Ange, thats with no kids and I am under 26
Angela Smith
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 20:31:50 (BST)
Bursary
Ange, I get £4686 a year. Good luck to all those who are going to the sleepout.
Angela Smith <angela09@btinternet.com>
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 20:30:21 (BST)
Forgot this bit, DOOOOOH
http://www.rcn.org.uk/preselect/hakesleybrown.html
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 19:32:47 (BST)
LET ME THROUGH I AM AN AROMATHERAPIST!!!!!
Crash victims rejoice, the hand at the tiller is not only a steady one, and after years of consultancy a well manicured one, it is also probably fragrant. Yes, who cares about dull, dull nursing when we can all smell and look lovely... Tonight I am burning car tires and getting a feeling of militancy....
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 19:31:58 (BST)
I am interested to know how much pay people are getting on the basic bursary (under 26, no kids). Please write in, thanks.
ange
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 18:15:20 (BST)
Anyone is welcome to attend the sleep out - the more the merrier.
Anne-Marie <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 12:27:33 (BST)
Sleeping not chatting
From the timing on the messages here, I'd say a lot of us work nights.......good morning, everybody.......
JB
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 07:16:13 (BST)
Hello???
Is this a chat room cause I can't seem to find anyone?
Melissa
- Friday, October 06, 2000 at 00:17:18 (BST)
Nurse Cadet Scheme - my experiences so far!
I heard about the Nurse Cadet Scheme and thought "this is it - my opportunity at long last to do what I've dreamed of all my life" - I am 44 and was a Secretary at an FE College for 7 years on £12,000 pa up until 8 September when I gave it up to do this course. My husband nearly divorced me and my friends couldn't believe it. i was adamant. The way the course is set up is that we do one year NVQ2 and the second year NVQ3 and then fasttrack onto the Diploma into the second year. Whether it was designed to suss out the wimps, I don't know, but we had to work on the wards for the first two full weeks and then two days a week after that. I am now in a state as I have had such a shock to my system having done this placement that I don't think I can continue. I feel sick at the thought of going on the ward. This is because I don't know anything about anything and I feel like a complete prat because the staff are too busy to bother with me. My tutor tells me to ask, ask, ask but how do you pester staff nurses when they are busy with a very sick patient, and you just want to help someone onto a commode and don't know whether to just do it and hope for the best, or get help - after all the patient trusts me as I'm in a uniform. I have gone through hell to do this and now I just feel stupid. Can anyone guide me on how I deal with this?
Fionuala <ofionuala@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 22:50:19 (BST)
ps
Please if old whingers like me can join the sleepout Ray anyone can!!!!!!!!!?????
Lynette
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 20:49:12 (BST)
blah blah blah
Hello whinger here, I am in support of your comments Louise. I feel that there are some strange misunderstood things going on amongst the anon folk and yourself...my suggestion is drop it! well I will attempt to drag myself to Leeds, it is a long way.I would like to mention that I planned my training for four years before I started. I knew of the hardship and I warned my husband and children, they understood that we would have to sacrifice for three years, and we agreed as a family. I love Nursing I am enjoying it more and more all the time I don't want to be rich with money because I am rich with my health and the beautiful family I have. At the end of the last accademic year, however, I didn't think that I would be able to conitinue my studies, I was very upset, our finances were terrible my children haven't had any birthday celebrations and I feel guilty that they cannot have new clothes after a year. This can be interpretted as you wish, I hope that it is clear that I know I am better off than some and worse off than others that does not matter. I care about this profession and feel that we are the future and if the apathetic and scared or the follow me leader type do as we are told type mean that we have to continue in situations like mine then we will whinge. ANYWAY I think that I am going to set an example by saving to go to this sleepout in Leeds. WHO SAID THAT WE ARE'NT TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT????
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 20:47:56 (BST)
Poverty
The RCN does not keep students in poverty. The RCN favours bursary rather than salary for a number of legitimate reasons BUT is clearly in favour of review of the bursary and associated benefits. UNISON and ANS members met the Sec of State and pushed for improvement. Does it really matter if it is salary or bursary? Surely what matters is that students can actually LIVE reasonably on what they get whilst studying. Please let's not get into another RCN v UNISON battle. Lets campaign for a reasonable amount that will reflect the "working" element of the students life and a sum that should be paid on qualification to attract and keep new nurses in the NHS. A united campaign on this principle is more likely to succeed. PS, can oldies who are qualified join the sleep out?
Ray Rowden <ray@rolf99.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 19:09:47 (BST)
The RCN keeps students in poverty
This weeks issue of Nursing Times carries a news item on page 5 entitled "RCN backs call to reject salaries for students" The item reads as follows Alan Milburn has signalled that there will be no return to salaries for nursing students as long as he is health secretary. Speaking at the RCN's fringe meeting at the conference last week, the health secretary told nurses he was in favour of bursaries, sounding a potential death knell for UNISON's campaign to put students back on the payroll. "for my own part, I think there is merit in the bursary system he said". A review of funding-due to report by the end of the year was going to try to find a solution to student hardship he said. RCN representatives welcomed his comments. Linda Bailey, council member for South East Thames said salaries which she trained under were not the answer, but she wanted guarantees that students would be able to access maternity and sickness benefits. "Those of us who suffered under the old system back bursaries" she said. We are totally in favour, but we need to make sure the level of the bursaries is increased. Ninety per cent of nurses are women and the same is true for students. They have no access to maternity benefits and long term sickness benefits. But Karen Jennings UNISON's head of nursing, said " It is very disappointing that Alan Milburn isn't listening especially as Tony Blair said the this is a listening government. The Nursing Times survey showed 78% of nurses support a return to salaries - Mr milburn is not listening to that. We will be redoubling our efforts to get him to agree to what the majority is saying." End of Article Clearly the RCN and Allan Milburn are digging in their heals on this issue and we need to continue to work up activity to counterbalance their stand. There is no reason why if we stand together both the RCN and the government can't be forced to change their minds. both students and qualified staff are overwhelmingly in favour of salaries for students.
Dominic Forristal <D.Forristal@unison.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 16:21:38 (BST)
Escape
I was wondering if anyone else is considering the option of taking their skills elsewhere upon qualification? I am and I know a few others who are investigating the possibility of working abroad. Two of the guys I knew who have been qualified for almost a year have just announced they are off for Australia. I personally have no problem with the ideaq of caring for people who will be equally deserving of treatment in a country that has more to offer healthcare employees than this one. When you see the wave of apathy that has enveloped so much of nursing, both qualified and unqualified in this country, it is almost impossible to envisage a time when things will change. Whereas nurses abroad can seem to seperate the emotion from taking direct action, the British solution seems to be characterised by a univeral desire for martyrdom. Nurses here seem happy to see patients suffer and receive poor care as a direct result of staff and associated shortages but allow themselves to be browbeaten by the moral majority. Both American and New Zealand nurses have been engaged in direct action, aimed at improving patient care through fighting for better conditions for nurses. With the recent surveys revealing an increasing trend in nurse suicides, nurses taking second jobs and ever-increasing numbers leaving the profession one wonders how bad it will ahve to get before common sense prevails?
Roger <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 16:01:21 (BST)
None
Are any of the survivors of the ANS conference going to any of the sleep outs?
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 15:49:27 (BST)
SLEEP OUT
The sleep out in Leeds 3rd of november is outside quarry house (dept of health) students to assemble from 6pm. unison will reimburse all unison students travel expenses. all students who attend will get hot food and drink and breakfast. you just need a sleeping bag, warm clothes and a cushion. I hope as many people in the area will be able to attend. I do understand people have commitments - family, work, etc.
Anne-Marie Osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 13:29:45 (BST)
Unison sleep out in the South West
There's going to be Unison sponsored action in the South West in about three weeks time. I'm checking with my colleagues at college today to try and find a time that will maximise turn out. 1 week before the Leeds sleep out is probably going to be the time. The reason why I was concerned at the way the comments were going yesterday was because of the abuse that was being thrown about last week - so they weren't boundless. I certainly hope it doesn't happen.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 09:22:03 (BST)
To all the whingers.............
So what are you going to do about it? Spend the rest of your nursing career writing these postings or get active and annoy some people who actually have the power to make the necessary changes?
- Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 07:52:16 (BST)
LIsa...a response from a whinger
Lisa, the reason that people are moaning as you put it and , the reason why they are complaining about pay and conditions is because they are the most important issues to many students. You see many students are hugely fed up with th present explotitive situation. I for one am sick to the back teeth of poor placements, poor pay and even poorer lectures. I am sick of having to balance every bill before i can go out, i am sick of having to continuosly buy the cheapest food at every opportunity. I just hate being poor and having to do a job which i love but i dont get paid for. You see Lisa, it is difficult to accentuate the positives when you dont see any. I personally have a big problem with people who happily accept the poor conditions and denigrate all those who seek to change. It is down to people of a simular mindset to yourself that Nursing is in such a crap situation. How about taking off your stupid rose coloured specs and looking at what is really going on. The attitude that you have annoys me intensly. We have to air our greivances in forums like this because people like you dont allow us to do it elsewhere. You sek to controal and to force feed the rest of us with the idea that it is all ok and that we should just get on with it. Well i for one will not accept that, so why dont you take your fluffy bunny nursing policies, your closed mind and your 'oh itll be allright' attitude and think about it before you criticise anyone else!
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 20:19:03 (BST)
It's not fair.............!!!
I've just found out that my friend who is studying in sheffield is now receiving £405.42 each month basic bursary. I am studying in Preston and now receive £400.42 after this months rise. This does not seem fair and I feel like a good whinge! I would be interested to see how much other people receive on the basic bursary in other parts of the country!
ange <ange.chris@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:39:22 (BST)
Sleepout!
Is anyone else planning to go to the "Unison" sponsered sleepout in Leeds on the 3rd of November? I think it's a great idea, and the more people that turn up then the more news coverage we'll get. I'm in the RCN and I wish they could pull their collective fingers out and get a bit more active or at least join forces with Unison. It's all gone very quiet in the RCN corner.................
Tim <tim.storey1@btinternet.com>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:38:40 (BST)
Where's Suren this site seems almost tame without him
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:31:45 (BST)
Calm down I agree with you can't you see that for goodness sake. Are you always this paranoid Can we get back to debating issues, what do think of my little story about the rich woman
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:24:26 (BST)
1st Anna D'Arcy now me
Am I now due for some abuse after the nasty comments made about Anna D'Arcy last week? Certainly looks like it to me. Come on - unleash your hate if it makes you feel good about yourself but perhaps you would be better off checking in with a counsellor. I'm here to discuss issues that matter to nursing & midwifery students - what are you here for?
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:20:45 (BST)
Different Chatrooms
Hi Everyone,
Apart from this chat area we also have a threaded chat area on the Portal Forum http://www.nursing-portal.com/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl with a new Student Area.
Just think of it as the chill out rooms at a night club. So if it all gets a bit too hectic in here just pop over to the Portal Forum.
Nigel <webmaster@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:19:54 (BST)
No problem you talk a lot of sense but I just think you should allow people to express themselves anonymously if they so wish
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:17:11 (BST)
That's a bit harsh that is
I don't think that's a fair comment to make - if you have a problem with what I'm saying say it. We are all supposed to be adults here so come on - lets try and be at least civil to one another.
Louise
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:14:40 (BST)
The other side to poverty
I've been talking to a fellow student nurse today who I've been studying alongside for the last two years. let me describe her personal circumstances WARNING DO NOT READ ON IF YOU ARE EASILY UPSET!!!! This lady is in her early 40's attneds uni in top designer labels, drives a BMW and never has a hair out of place. She receives the same bursary as another female student I know who lives on her own and has to bring up a five year old child on fresh air basically. The interesting fact about the first person is that they live quite comfortably off her husbands more than adeqaute income and her bursary is automatically transferred into a high interest savings account each month and by the end of her training she will have a nice little nest egg of about £18,000 to do with as she pleases. Worst of all she brags about the long holiday she will take before even thinking about applying for a job if she applies at all. Isn't life unfair sometimes
Anon coz I choose to be
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:11:36 (BST)
A meak and down trodden nurse speaks out
Sorry Lisa and everyone else for putting two posts up so quickly but I've just re-read your posting. The bit I really take issue with is that just because we all - as you said - made a decision to train as nurses or midwives - it doesn't mean that we also signed up to being treated unfairly. Being exploited as a student nurse & being a caring professional are not the same thing. We have every right to open our mouths if we feel that we are being treated badly. I beleive that we would be doing the profession a dis-service if we did not speak out against practices that are directly responsible for there being the shortages of qualified staff. You may disagree and you have every right to.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:10:42 (BST)
If people wish to remain anonymous let them it's a free country and a free speech site. don't you feel like a bully somtimes Louise. You make some excellent points in your own open way so let others make their points in their own way they're just as valid
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 16:00:09 (BST)
WELL SAID LISA, I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!
anita
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 15:55:35 (BST)
What's there to hide and the dreaded 'p' word
More 'fluffy' chats CAN co-exist with debates on the key issues that affect us all - I don't see why this chatroom has comply to one or the other. Everyone looks at the threads that interest them and relies to the ones that they choose to. In answer to your question - the reason why the UK chatrooms have references to unions might have something to do with that unions actually exist in the UK. I Don't think there's anything wrong with one of the most fundamental issues (student poverty) facing us being discussed - especially considering that the two main organisations that we CHOOSE to represent us disagree about the way to address it. We need to make sure they listen to what we feel and act on the concerns we have - it can't be left to mere chance. Also there has been a growth in people choosing not to put their names to any posts - why? We should all feel confident enough to be sure that no one will hold anything against us if we view opinions or air our concerns.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 15:50:22 (BST)
to Lisa
Point taken about the political/union thing but that seems to have calmed down over the last week and people are sharing their problems etc. Nut I have to say that it is very important to discuss funding etc. as it needs to reviewed and increased to ensure a good supply of quality students to ultimately start to fill the gaps in an over stretched work force.
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 15:37:33 (BST)
Bursary Review Delayed it's Offical
Just checked out Nursing Standard online the bursary review will now not be published unitil March 2001 and possibly later if theres a general election. So keep up the lobbying with the government under pressure and public support for nursing perhaps we can push successfully for a fair result in the review be it a higher bursary or return to salaried status. see http://www.nursing-standard.co.uk/newsfr.htm
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 15:32:39 (BST)
Slightly Disappointed
Last night I found an American site called nursing net that had a message board where students could interact with eachother. Now today I was delighted to find an English equivalent. However, the difference is the American version has students using it that actually have dilemma's, questions and queries about actual nursing. I was abit disappointed to see that our English equivalent was more concerned with politics and the funding of the job. Don't get me wrong, I understand that all the issues raised are of some importance, however it is not the be all and end all. The majority of this chat forum consists of moaning about this union and that union, and consrvative policies and labour policies etc...Does any student out there have any concerns about the actual job or any stories??????? Sorry to continue the moaning this chat room is used to, but please, if you are more concerned about what YOU will get out of this job then maybe nursing wasn't the right choice. Every person who enters whatever form of nurse training is aware of how the situation is with regards to financing, so why keep going on about it???????????????
Lisa <lsfg@handbag.com>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 15:21:39 (BST)
The new RCN Pres writes on the web!!!!!!!!!!
I found this on a back water site called the RCN Research Society. So the new RCN Pres does use the net!! But why suchan obscure site one wonders??? This has been an interesting presidential election, not least because of the different attributes of the contestants. In an ideal world it would be good to meld the best features of the 3 of us into the successful candidate. Perhaps this could be best achieved by the new president incorporating and utilising the skills of the other two participants during her/his term of office, thereby making visible the new integrated membership structure at the highest level. Yes, of course, the RCN, whilst not affiliated to a specific political party, is a highly political organisation. It has to be.we have to be.if we are to make any difference to how we work and deliver care in the way that we think we should! The President has an obligation to lead by example in this. Nursing Times' Jane Salvage asserts that only Ray Rowden appears to be conducting a real election campaign which has included a full page advert in NT and a website. This raises the question (no brown envelopes here!) about the resources that presidential elections in the future will need in order to be real! Are we really only going to be interested in candidates who have a large enough election chest to mount a real campaign? Are we going to means test candidates? .I don't think so! However, we do need to ask some serious questions about how these events should be funded in future . and we have Ray to thank for raising this important issue in the way that he has structured his campaign. I just wish I had the cash available to fund a full-page advert but like many of you I don't. All three candidates have raised important issues to do with such things as being more inclusive, listening to students, etc. However, it's not what we say . but how we do it that matters. It's all very well being doctors of spin but what we have to be is nurses of tenacity - so in the name of nursing . get out there and vote for one of us . please!
President spotting
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 15:11:21 (BST)
Experience
I have just done my first two days at my new placement, it has been brilliant I have gained more experience in the two days than I had at all from the whole of the first year. I am really pleased, thanks for the support Roger. * To anon of 30 sept. HELLO? am I missing the point or are you lost up your own arse? *Where is the sleepout on the 3rd of November @ 6? can I join in if I can get to it from London? *To Heidi I hope that you realise that there are people who cannot work outside of placement and study time, due to dependants etc. can't remember who wrote it sorry but you are right we do have extremely individual cases and they are important to be considered and then reflected upon before any decisions are made about us as a whole. *Finally Mary re special cases...Well I suppose working to save lives and keep lives worth living isn't enough??????I don't know that we are all that important but it is essential that we learn everything that is taught to us and more. I too have done a psychology degree before this and that was a piece of piss compared to this! thanks for your time, goodbye.
Lynette <lynettecmorgan@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 14:16:00 (BST)
ALL nursing students are being exploited
Jenny -isn't it just crazy that different students are on different incomes - even though we are all having to work our socks off to get through our course. In my cohort there are several seconded students who receive a wage, I get a bursary, and degree students like yourself get even less. We all put a hell of a lot into our training and all of us deserve an income that means we can pay our bills. I have to work on average an extra 30 odd hours every week just to be able to survive - you must find it even more difficult. The powers that be have to accept that WE ARE DIFFERENT from other students as we have to work a lot harder and for a lot longer as we pursue our professional training. I think, as does Unison, that there should definately be a levelling up so that we all get a living wage. If you want to make a difference - be active in Unison so that we can make sure that all students can win a decent income. If you don't want to be active in our campaigning for a fairer deal join the club, work every night you can through the bank or agency, and use matchsticks to keep your eyes open during lectures.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 13:18:49 (BST)
can anybody help us? we are degree nursing students and we would like to know why diploma nursing students get more money than us. Because we are doing a three year degree we get two weeks holiday in the summer and don't have the opportunity to work. Is anybody in this position? do you feel sorry for us. Any tips for getting some extra money. Tips welcome.
jenny patterson <jennifer.patterson@kcl.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 11:49:49 (BST)
BLATANT EXPLOITATION OF SUPERNUMERARY STATUS
Just found this posted on the nurselife website any body alse experienced anyting like this? " I've just been chatting to a fellow student who has just started a new placment. Yesterday she attendeda ward meeting where the ward manager stated that the ward was over spent on the staffing budget. To alleviate this problem he in his wisodom (and I may add with the support of the university he claims!!!) has decided that whenever he has two students on the ward he will count them in the numbers as 0.5 HCA each and for go x1 HCA saving him money as obviously the students cost nothing in terms of his budget." Has anyone else experienced such baltant mis-use of students?????????
Andy McGovern <Andy_mm_99@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 10:40:17 (BST)
I'm a second year nursing student in England. I will be qualified in a year and will then be returning to Vancouver, Canada. Does anyone have any helpful tips regarding exams and finding my first job as a nurse. I've got tons of experience as a nursing assistant.
Lena <hcs8hlef@leeds.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 08:47:28 (BST)
Pat on the Back!!!
Well even if Mr.Portillo didn't give us a pat on the back heres a well deserved virtual one for us all!!!!! (((( PAT ON THE BACK ))))))
Chris <chris@nurselife.co.uk>
- Wednesday, October 04, 2000 at 00:56:35 (BST)
A pat on the back from Micheal Portillo...
Just a quicky. Does anyone know of any good references for an assignment on PREP? If you do then that would be brilliant but if not then i suppose i will have to do it all on my own! On another point, did anyone see the Tory conference on TV today? Micheal Portillo was giving a speech about the time he worked as a hospital porter (scary thaught i know!) and he called all of those who worked in the NHS hero's! Does this mean that finally someone somewhere is waking up to just how dire the situation is in the NHS or is it just more political manouvering? (Perhaps i am being over cynical?) Still he did say that we all deserve a pat on the back.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, October 03, 2000 at 20:59:08 (BST)
Well said, Clare - I couldn't agree more! Here's hoping............
Ange
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 21:11:06 (BST)
Response to Mary
Mary, I am sure you are not being judgemental in any way by your comments on our bursaries/loans.I completed a degree last year before embarking on the accelerated diploma in nursing, so I have seen both sides of the coin. We are not like ordinary university students in many ways... the most important issue of which being hours. As a university student, I was in college for around 16-20 hours per week, the rest of the week was taken up with independent study and should I have missed a lecture or two, they would have been none the wiser. As a nursing student, I am in college or placements 8 hours per day (at least) Monday to Friday. Also, due to the fact that nursing is a professional course, we are not permitted to miss any lectures (we actually sign in for each one), this is UKCC regulations whom we gain professional registration with on qualification. While, as a graduate, I know I was at times pushed for money, I also know I had the time to go out and earn some cash while gaining a good degree... In nursing, myself and many other students are risking not only failing the diploma/degree but also compromising our professional compitence and (hopefully never, but...) the lives of the general public by working while studying. I hope this kind of clarifies the issue a little Mary, I know other people will have more to say, good luck in your degree (and ALL students deserve better funding, its just this one is very personal to us!).
Claire <ClaireMacL@aol.com>
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 20:48:03 (BST)
Dear Mary
Our argument is that we don't get the same free time as other students to enable us to have jobs, we only have a very small amount of holiday time each year and when on placement we have to work shifts so being unable to work evenings and weekends.
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 20:30:23 (BST)
Special Case???
I am not a nursing student and (I don't mean this in any patronising way) I would like to know why Nursing Students are a special case. Even thos on a diploma get more than I do accross the tree years. AS I say I do not mean any malice by this question, just curious how you view and value yourselves as students of a university/college??? Thanx and good luck on your courses!! <<
Mary Jones
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 19:44:58 (BST)
rather lunacy than poverty
maybe some lunacy is what is needed to raise some awareness of just what student nurses have to go through in order to have any sort of standard of living. as a student who also has to do approx 20 hrs bank auxillary shifts a week i am happy to support the 'lunacy' and try to change things rather than sit on my backside and winge without even trying.
Heidi <h9806000@hud.ac.uk>
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 13:58:32 (BST)
3RD NOVEMBER
Sorry i suppose i should have mentioned that it starts at 6pm but don't worry if you cannot get there so early - you won't miss all the fun.
anne-marie
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 13:58:18 (BST)
3RD NOVEMBER
There will be a sleep out on the 3rd of november at quarry house (dept of health) in leeds. This is being organised by unison - they will pay for students travelling expenses, hot food and breakfast and will erect a shelther if it rains (snows or hails). i think this exercise will give student nurses more publicity and raise public awareness of how desperate student nurses are. i also believe it will increase our morale which i think needs addressing. it would be great if as many student nurses in the area could come along. if you have other commintments and cannot sleep out perhaps you could join us for an hour or so to show your support. please contact me for further details.
Anne-Marie Osborne <h9150376@hud.ac.uk>
- Monday, October 02, 2000 at 13:50:35 (BST)
No need to worry Lynette
I am beginning to know what Sarah is feeling, first day of LAST placement tomorrow! Interviews in November and last assignment due December 12th. As for the fears you have expressed, "entirely normal madam" as doctor would say... I certainly had them, have them even and have to confess I hope I always do. I think that little nagging voice seperates me from error on many occassions when (in my case) my big mouth is dragging my small brain towards disaster! Fortune may favour the brave, but discretion has always been the better part of valour. I am sure you will be fine, I certainly offer you my best wishes, take and try and enjoy it. The only 'secret' I have come across, is to take 'one good thing from each day'. There is normally something amongst it all that was great or even good, think about that on the way home.
Roger Obermaier <roger@obermaier.freeserve.co.uk>
- Sunday, October 01, 2000 at 22:55:55 (BST)
To the most recent anonymous contribution.
As a non-nursing member, I resent your attitude towards this page. The issues discussed here on this page directly relate to current nursing dilemas and NEED TO BE ADDRESSED - whether political or not. I feel you need to do some serious research before you come out with mindless, immature and inappropriate comments such as those illustrated in your posting. Why don't you reveal yourself instead of hiding behind your protective, anonymous cage eh? Please, get a life..........
Ange
- Sunday, October 01, 2000 at 20:11:41 (BST)
Review of student finance by DoH
Here's an article I wrote from Unison's point of view about the meeting with Alan Milburn on the subject of student hardship. I think there were 3 students from ANS present but I'm not sure. Students from all around the country have been involved in UNISON's campaign for a fairer deal for nursing & midwifery students. Thanks to this campaigning on Monday 26 June the Secretary of State for Health Alan Milburn was forced to meet with a delegation of students to discuss student poverty. Five students from UNISON, each with their own experiences of trying to survive on the bursary met Alan Milburn. The key areas identified were: - Clinical placements / Problems on wards due to staff shortages - Bursaries / That pay an equivalent of £2.60 an hour - Accommodation / The selling off of student accommodation by NHS Trusts - Travelling expenses / The unfair system that penalises many students - Poverty / Not being able to earn extra cash due to course pressure, unlike many other students. The meeting was very successful and Alan Milburn has ordered a review of Clinical Placements and bursaries to be completed within the next 6 months. The same group of students will then meet with the Secretary of State to discuss the findings so that students will have a real say in the process. This will be the first time student nurses & midwives have been asked for their opinions during the review process of a government paper. I feel the meeting was an opportunity to get across our own personal accounts of nurse training and the difficulties facing us all within the present system. The numbers dropping out due to the intense pressure of the course is increasing. It is vital to ensure that our issues are raised to make sure there will be enough nurses and midwives across the NHS in the years to come. How can the government hope to be able to realise its ambition of recruiting an additional 20,000 nurses within reducing the huge numbers forced off their course thanks to poverty.
Louise Brown <L.Brown-1@plymouth.ac.uk>
- Sunday, October 01, 2000 at 11:25:29 (BST)