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Actually
I have just realised that yes you can earn what you like because the married
students with earning husbands get the same as everyone else!!
- Monday, April 30, 2001 at 21:10:48 (BST)
The diploma bursary is non-means tested and you can earn what you like I think, as long as it is part time. I'll be very surprised if you can manage any more than 16 hours a week (unless you don't have kids then maybe you can) I struggle doing 12 hours!!!!
- Monday, April 30, 2001 at 21:09:51 (BST)
Diploma bursary - means tested or not?????
I'd like to apply for a part time job, but as the job i want to apply for pays more than my annual bursary entitlement I understand (according to NHS-SGU literature)that this will cancel my entitlement to recieving anything at all (even though the diploma bursary is apparently meant to be 'non means tested'). However I often hear of student nurses who claim to work 28-30 hours a week which must take them above their bursary entitilement?????? I'd appreciate it if anyone can shed any light on the matter Thanks
- Monday, April 30, 2001 at 19:00:15 (BST)
I am not so proud of it now!
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 20:09:22 (BST)
Sorry!!!!!
Sorry to all of you that I offended. It must have been PMT or I was a bit p***ed. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 20:08:00 (BST)
is anybody else feeling disillusioned? I am in my final year and feel like i am going off nursing completely. I feel burnt out before i've even qualified. I feel like my whole life is 'nursing' and just want to be a free agent again.
claire
- Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 19:56:46 (BST)
Quite!!!!
- Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 14:42:04 (BST)
This message board should be open to all nursing staff wishing to make a contribution. If someone like Jane is using it the way she is,she is going to drive a wedge between HCA's and student nurses.
colin
- Friday, April 27, 2001 at 21:19:18 (BST)
JOIN US AT THE BRUTISH CYBER CAFE
Hello All.... Be sure to join the Brutish Team at this years RCN Congress, in Harrogate 20th - 25th May 2001.
The team from Brutish will be running a Cyber Café for the duration of the exhibition, so why not visit Stand C143, in Hall C, and join in the fun. We will have some great prizes to give away, in our Brutish Raffle, including state-of-the-art mountain bikes, mobile phones, HMV & Virgin Vouchers, and lots of other great stuff.
Or, why not just pop in for a free drink, and surf the web for your favourite sites (including Brutish-Nursing.com of course ! )
Not only that, we will be hosting a FREE Student Reception, the BIG BRUTISH BOOZE UP, ON Wednesday evening, between 6 and 8PM, at the Cairn Hotel, Harrogate.
There will be a FREE Bar for all attending. Just call at the Stand for your ticket. Or, why not become one of our roving team of Congress reporters. Update the Brutish Site during Congress, and win more great prizes, including everyone's favourite....READY CASH !!
Watch the site for more details, or email me, or the Brutish Webmaster with your comments and questions. See you at Congress..... Be Bold, Be Brutish!
Phillip Hufton - Development Manager <phillip.hufton@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Friday, April 27, 2001 at 10:33:06 (BST)
Tired of reading "Jane HCA and proud of it"
As I read through the messages on this website it strikes me that some people, mentioning no names........oh all right then "Jane HCA and proud of it" have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Jane, is english your first language? In fact is earth your home planet? You may well moan about Student Nurses, but we are a product of the environment which people like you provide. If you cannot be bothered with us,pray tell why we should pull out the stops to accommodate bitter and twisted individuals like yourself. I was an HCA before I started the course and with 8 months left to go I would appreciate all the help I can get, especially from the HCA's who do have a lot to give Students in the way of experience. If you give us Students a hard time, don't expect any favours when we qualify. Oh and by the way, this site is dedicated to Student Nurses not HCA's, if it was then it would say "Welcome HCA's" but it doesn't soooooo........BOG OFF!
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 22:20:22 (BST)
Pseuds, you gotta love em!
"I am more caring than all the staff nurses in the world and twice as caring and I have a BA in Eutracian Pottery circa 3000 b.c.", well aren't you just an all round super f***ing star. Thanks Jane, you help me believe in Darwin.
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 21:58:07 (BST)
damn......I meant Mick! Sorry Mick!
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 21:21:17 (BST)
You're an embarrassment to other HCA's Jane
Actually, 'Jane HCA and proud of it', no one said you have to be a HCA did they? So if your working conditions are so poor then why do you stick with it? Obviously, seeing all these 'useless student nurses standing around' will do nothing for job satisfaction will it? I have come to the conclusion that you are jealous of the fact that people half your age are training for a good career, whilst you earn minimum wage. I bet you hate being delegated to don't you Jane? I've met many an HCA with a similar attitude to yours. Well, I'm afraid if you don't possess the qualifications to train to be a nurse, it's no good trying to 'belittle' student nurses who have, and turn your jealousy into childish bitching. I really think you need to take a trip up maturity lane before you embarrass yourself further. Oh, and dont try the 'I've got so much money' attack. A-its childish, B-it makes you look even more foolish than you presently do and c-it's more than likely a complete fabrication!!! Just to conclude, in response to Mike, the majority of HCA's are fantastic and contribute tremendously to the nursing care team. It's just a shame there are people like 'Jane-HCA and proud of it'.........
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 21:20:36 (BST)
HCAs
Please don't think that all HCAs are anywhere near like Jane. I am certainly not and i know the ones that i work with are not ether. I am a HCA because i do not have the grades to do my nurse training. I think Jane you are a bad example of all the HCAs that i have worked with. Just out of intrest Jane, are you on 'the game'? I asked because you seem to be very well off for a HCA.
Mick
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 18:34:18 (BST)
I worked part time as an A grade(non agency) in London before I started my training and got 7 pounds an hour aswell as family credit - my previous job had been in a fast food restaurant for 3 pounds an hour - twice the work and a fraction of the gratitude!!!!!!
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 10:21:06 (BST)
yeah......so bog off our page jane
!!!!!!!!!
russ
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 23:08:00 (BST)
this is a postboard for student nurses/nurses. This is a place for like minded people to share their experiences and troubles. There is no room for health care assistants with a huge chip on their shoulders.
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 21:40:44 (BST)
Continued
I'm just glad I'm not on a placement with Jane ! Unlike some of the other women on here, I fortunately have no dependants. If I did, I honestly do not know how i would cope, both financially and emotionally. The bursary students receive is meagre. I find it extremely difficult to survive on it, and i'm not out every night fluttering it away in London. Even with a London weighting it doesn not get very far. Jane, we are not asking for a medal because we are nursing. We are asking for some RECOGNITION. Have you tried doing assignments when you are dead to the work after your night placements ? Have you had to work in a bar aswell as Uni and Placements because you'd end up in debt if you didn't ? All we want is some support. I'm training in nursing because I care. We all deserve a decent opportunity to train as nurses without living in borderline poverty !
Ellie
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:59:02 (BST)
Jane
Is Jane for real ? I wonder if she can remove her head from her arse to answer that one ?
Ellie
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:51:42 (BST)
You live pretty well on your measly wage Jane!! Why didn't you do your training then if the money is going to be so good for us??? At 36 I will be lucky to get beyond E grade before retirement
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:16:43 (BST)
How I am going to survive another 2 years of placements, study, work and a daughter with ADHD, living on a crap bursary is beyond me!!
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:14:44 (BST)
No one -
told you that you would HAVE to be a student nurse did they? From where I am standing it looks like the nurses of the future will be a load of moaners who think that the world owes them a favour. If it is getting you down, then find another job. I love my VERY HARD WORK job. The patients do not asked to be there. I own my house, nice car. I employ a cleaner/cook and I have a fair bit of money in the bank. A very lucky cow really. My 4 children are fine but my husband is disabled and cannot work.So what? I don't think you can give me any lessions in bringing up a family and trying to make ends meet, or how to nurse a patient. You might only receive a 'measly bursary' at the moment but after you have trained you will be a D, then maybe a E,F,G, and so on. If your face really fits then you may well end up as a manager. In the meantime those of us who do the REAL nursing will still be struggling, Oops mus'nt moan, on A Grade or if I am really,really lucky I might be made up to a B grade.Tough life.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:13:12 (BST)
What would you know Jane?
Jane, after reading your recent contributions to this page, I can only suggest you have a HUGE CHIP on your shoulder. Have you ever started your training? Have you ever had to juggle full time hours with endless hours of study, assignments, presentations, seminars, exams AND part time work! On top of this do you have the responsibility of rasing a young family and trying to survive of a measly bursary? Its attitudes like yours that make students placements a misery. Until you can emphasise with what we have to put up with I suggest you keep your pitiful opinions to yourself.
- Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 21:35:19 (BST)
all I am saying is, yes, HCA's are invaluable and I have learnt a lot from them in my recent placement, but also I have learnt very few clinical procedures and absolutely nothing about admissions and discharges etc from trained staff as even though I am not counted in the numbers I am seen as an extra pair of hands to get the work done quicker and this is not the role of the student.
- Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 12:21:54 (BST)
jane
as a registered nurse you are responsible for your own professional development and making sure you are familiar with policies and procedures. If you fail to follow those and the guidelines set out by the ukcc code of conduct you will be help negligent.
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 23:00:29 (BST)
Accountability does-
applies to everone. Sure if you have been training for the past 3 years to become a nurse, then it is fair to expect that you will have at least some idea of what you are about. The trust and it's managers also have a large duty of accountability. If you are not given the right amout of support and something goes wrong they may be guilty of negligence, as proved in a recent court case. To Robin yes you are right I am a bit of a fraud I have a BA, but I am still proud to be an HCAs.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 20:04:35 (BST)
Jane - It is constantly drummed into us that when we make mistakes as a qualified nurse then it is OUR OWN registration that is at risk, not a line managers or anyone else for that matter!!! Accountability!!!!!!!
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 09:32:01 (BST)
Kings Interviews
HI, I've applied to Kings College to do A Diploma in Nursing. I was wonderering if anyone else on here is currently studying there and could give me the lowdown on what it's like ? What the interview was like, the course etc... It will be much appreciated. Thanks. Siobhan xxx
Siobhan McCall <Siobhan17UK@aol.com>
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 07:59:19 (BST)
jane
as a HCSW ( and very proud of it) for 10 yrs before qualifiying as a registered nurse, i can honestly say that the difference between the 2 roles is tremendous. i cant be arsed to go in to the differences, as im to mentally knackered, as well as physically knackered!!!! you dont know till youve been there, and believe me...ive been there...if students are crap, its because people (wether trained or untrained) couldnt be bothered to teach them. As a student, i had good and bad placements. those placements where i was used to take the place of bank staff to save the ward budget (and that was the norm , believe me!)i wouldnt give the time of day as a qualified member of staff. until wards realise the value of their students...they will suffer. i once worked as a student on a ward where the SR , at the ward meeting, mentioned bringing in school children on work experience to boost recruitment and encourage more young people in to nursing. there were 2 students on that ward, we ran 28 beds during that meeting...the HCSW told us what went on in the meeting! until u start treating your students right, u cant expect to gain staff. as for HCSW's slagging students off, if u wanna be a staff nurse, drop your pay and survive on a bursary like we did....dont say u cant afford to, because i took the sacrifice, im in debt up to my eyeballs and i wont benefit from the wage for 5 yrs, all for giving my job up as a HCSW 2 become a student!
sarah
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 01:26:36 (BST)
Jane, I think you are a phoney. You've got to be with an attitude like that, come on admit you're taking the piss!!!
robin
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 22:25:22 (BST)
The One THING!
That a lot of you seem to miss is when you become a staff nurse you are not expected to take charge of the whole NHS, you will have a line manager. If they drop you into the deep end and things go pear shaped then it is they who carry the can not you.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 22:10:48 (BST)
Concerns of HCAs
I too feel that the acaedemics within the nursing profession have a lot to answer for in what is wrong with nursing today! It is all very well undertaking research then sitting and writing policies but these so called nurses should be asked when they last visited a ward or department and actually spoke with the staff trying to undertake their research and policies! Equally as important, they should speak with the patients receiving the nursing care! There is now something that HCAs can do to raise their concerns. They can now join the RCN! Come along and participate at branch meetings. Meet the few members who do attend branch meetings month by month as they are the nurses in my opinion who are really concerned about nursing!
RCN Activist
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 20:45:38 (BST)
Horses for courses, the HCA -v- the Student Nurse saga continues....
As a student nurse awaiting the opportunity to resit, I am currently employed as a theatre assistant in the department I hope to work in once qualified. I do, on occassion, get frustrated with the Consultants and Registrars that I have to work for. However, I allow myself the luxury of not pretending that I could do their job, as I am quite aware of the differences in academic and intellectual abilities they demonstrate. I do my job to the best of my ability and imagine that they do as well, naive perhaps but as I do not actually know how to do their job, perhaps the safest option. I imagine that if I do not succeed in my resit, I will be offered the chance to work as a TA for as long as they or I want the arrangement. I feel pretty sure that if I work in that department for another ten years I will still be no closer to becoming a consultant. I can see how that could chafe on an ego, but I hope that if that happens, I wont fall into the trap of regarding all the medics as idle, imbecilic dullards. Perhaps I will have the humility to realise that if I were blessed with the intellect and the opportunity, I could try and prove that I were their superior but I might be wiser to shut up, as indeed could others....
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 20:19:32 (BST)
Students need supporting not criticising
Rachel as a fellow newly qualified staff nurse (8 weeks and counting)the learning curve is HUGE. As a student you are simply not prepared for the responsibility of becoming an RGN. As you quite righlty stated HCA's and students can allways pass on there problems to a qualified nurse. But we do have to accept that the buck stops with us. The lack of support from nursing staff both qualified and unqualified hampers the development of the student nurse. The fact that i spent the last 12 months of my training being nothing more than another pair of hands didnt help. The role of the staff nurse is far far different from what i imagined it to be. The only way to prepare students for this step up is to let them do it under supervision in their training. Wasnt that the reason for the setting up of P2K in the first place? The reaction that many students (myself included) recieve from many HCA's is at best unhelpfull and at worst potentially damaging. Students should not be there to make up the numbers and whilst i appreciate that there are aspects of hands-on care that students need to learn there are the myriad of other tasks that a staff nurse performs that the student is not prepared for. My argument is that how many times does a student need to learn how to wash a patient? Or make beds? What they do need to be taught is how to complete discharges, how to perform assessments etc All of this needs to be done in a positive atmosphere, one which is free from accusations that because a student is doing 'paperwork' or because they are not emptying bed-pans or making beds then they are somehow shirking there work. May i remind people that students are there to LEARN and not do our jobs for us. As employees we get PAID to perform the jobs that we do, students do not.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk>
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 20:14:41 (BST)
It's down to you.
From my experience, 24 years of it, the present student nurse training has a lot to be desired, but I have found that some students go on to become very good staff nurses and some go on to be useless and I must say it bloody dangerous. Some will never make a nurse all the time that they have a hole in their arse. That said, most are very good and lovely to work with. Where I feel the fault really lies is in the academic world. They are the one's who leave you to 'just to get on with it'. If it were down to me I would take it up with them or the head of the college, but as a HCA there is not a lot I can do about it. HCAs do the work that others don't want to do. All the students that are useless normally go on to become senior managers. Now you know why the NHS is in the state that it is.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 18:55:16 (BST)
I am a student and have also been a HCA and I'm sorry but I do understand what nursing is about and I work bloody hard on placement AS A HCA! This is not what we are supposed to be learning, we already know how to be one and yes I can learn new practical skills from HCA's as well but there are procedures and paperwork and responsibilities that HCA's are not allowed to do, so how do we learn them before qualifying???????? apart from that I resent being on placement on bank holidays when HCA's are on time and a half and we are on £2.60 an hour and yet we are expected to lighten the workload for everyone - If we students hadn't been on the ward over easter there would have been no staff to wipe arses and pick up patients who fell over!!!
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 17:22:12 (BST)
To Mark Sellars
Are you really so naive? The pay in North America may look good on paper, but have you done any research into cost of living? Why do you think there are so many nursing vacancies on the continent? In Canada, it is extremely difficult to find a full time position. Many nurses work at 2 or 3 hospital in part time positions to make ends meet. In the US, you have to write your registration exams every time you move states. I have a friend who is registered in four different states due to the way her husband's job moves around. You pay every time to write the exam and the level of knowledge required varies. Has your wife discussed the cost of malpractice insurance, many, many nurses down there carry their own on top of what the facility provides, because suing is a national sport. She has to pay registration fees yearly, buy her own uniforms and shoes and pay for her own and her family's health insurance. Have you factored in how much housing costs. Housing can be very expensive, depending on where you live. Butfrom the tone of your letter, you think its all milk and honey. Get your wife to ask if overtime is optional or "voluntary" (four or five phonecalls a day requesting your presence). How long will it take her to get off night shifts, or does she have to bid on her hours, what union will she belong to. Remember, there are reasons for those vacancies and a shortage of training spaces can't be blamed for everything.
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 14:31:15 (BST)
Having been an HCA for years and a staff nurse for the last 6 months i am well aware of the nature of both positions. As an HCA you have a big hands on contribution to the care of patients. True when qualified your hands on care is paramount, but I totally overestimated the responsibility that as a staff nurse you have to take on your shoulders. The lack of support as a student nurse is very damaging when you qualify. The lack of management skills leave you feeling totally unprepared and thrown to the lions. I'm sorry Jane but unless you have experienced both sides of the fence I don't think you are in a position to criticise. As an HCA you can always pass the buck but as an RGN the buck stops at you.
rachel
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 23:28:36 (BST)
very!!!!!!!
well said Jane. It is about time someone told the moaning's a few home truths.
Emma
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 20:13:48 (BST)
Oh dear!
You can tell how angry I was when I wrote that by all the mistakes I made, but I meant every word it!
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 18:05:44 (BST)
Hear this you lot.
I am sick to death of student's who come to our ward and think they are something special. HCAs are NOT untrained we have been doing the job for years and most of us (where I work anyway) have done our NVQ3. When some of you say that you were looked at as 'just a pair of hands' what the hell do you want to do then, just stand in a corner and stare into space, while the patient;s mess themselves in bed or fall over flat on to their face. just because you felt that is was beyound you to help them when they needed it. I dont know if you know this but NURSING is about being able to use your HANDS for the benefit of those who are unable to use their own,IN THEIR TIME OF NEED. So stop moaning and be greatful that with your your good health you are able to care for others.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 17:03:30 (BST)
Why
To the last contributor. If what you say is true, which i doubt. Why have you mot made a point of going to see your rep? Why do you feel that he/she should come to you? He/she sound's like they are very good reps busy dealing with members problems. What you want to remember is that most union reps carry out the task of being a rep as well as doing their own job. A lot of my union work is done at home in my own time and at,i might add, at my own expence. It is people like you who make me feel that i want to say 'sod them' let them fight their own battles. Then i think of all the nice people that i meet so i carry on. Go to the RCN, go to who you want, but the fact of the matter is that you could not join a better union than UNISON.
Unison Rep.
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 16:34:02 (BST)
I think UNISON are useless I joined in Feb 99 and have still noy met a Rep when my pals in the RCN have regular meetings with theirs UNISON you are the weakest LINK GOOD BYE I'm off to join my pals in the RCN
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 00:18:57 (BST)
Passivity Must end
Unless Nurses themselves start to take action and i mean the industrial kind then conditions will NOT improve. Nurses have for to long been seen as the most passive of the groups within the health arena. Now with GP's threatening to strike isnt it time for the major nursing unions to make simular demands? I for one am fed up with only being able to 'firefight' and not being able to actually spend any time with any of my patients. I think that if action was even threatend the government would cave in and really look to improve conditions within the NHS. This would not only benefit staff but also patients and thats why were here after all.
Kristian Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, April 20, 2001 at 14:29:15 (BST)
Help for a Prospective Colleague
Well I have thought long and hard. I have researched the subject. I have considered giving up a salary fit for a Matron and god help me I have applied through NMAS. Then I came across this web site. HELP!!! I know its a tough job and I understand that its a hard life as a nursing student, but is it really the utter chaos mismanagement and unproffesionalism which I read about here. It clearly is in some areas but is it like that everywhere. If I get in I would be a very mature student at 43 I am male and I am a Londoner. I have applied for South Bank, Kings, Barts and Greenwhich. I would be very grateful for any feedback from students at these institutions. I'm pretty strong willed and I don't need to go on the assertiveness course so if I am constantly running into the type of managers, mentors and miseries that I read about here I'm apt to rebel. In a very proffesional manner but I will stand my ground. The bottom line is that my wife will kill me if I go for this and do not qualify. So please help me out here guys. Knowlege is power and all that. Feel free to email if you would rather not post. Many Thanks and Good Luck to all. Col
Col <cos.cws@virgin.net>
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 20:02:51 (BST)
Excellent pay in the USA.
I ahve read many articles about training courses for nurses that wish to take the NCLEX exam, and the huge fees thay have to pay. Taking the exam is well worth it as salaries start at around £24,000. My wife is working with a well known company that charges a total of £350. But you don't pay all at once - the first £100 is due at the start of the training programme plus 3 post dated cheques for £50. The final £100 is not due until you are working in the USA (or Aus, NZ, Canada, South Africa). These fees include the training pack 3 study days flights to and from Savannah Georgia USA. This trip is for 5 days - which includes 1 free day, 1 admin day, 2 intensive training days and the exam day. Once the exam is passed the Green cards are applied for. The minimum contract is 18 months after which several options are open - including the travelling nurse programme. You can choosw any state. We have chosen Florida or Texas. My wife goes to Georgia in July and we hope to move in November. Don't be shy give it a try. To learn more go to my website www.sellars-family.com Be appreciated and paid for what you are worth.
Mark Sellars <mark.sellars@virgin.net>
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 19:46:21 (BST)
Oh so unprofessional
The government is trying to suggest the teachers who take action to improve their conditions at work are 'unprofessional'. Is the label of being a true 'professional' worth having if it means you have to accept being treated unfairly?
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 13:27:31 (BST)
keepin yr head down
I felt like I should keep quiet at times but have learnt that if we dont speak out, the predominant attitude is "THATS THE WAY ITS ALWAYS BEEN" A. We are sick of hearing this on my course and are forming a student support forum for our year to help each other with just those attitudes that we encounter on placements. As thinking, feeling nurses (thats what they say they want us to become!) we have decided to challenge the status quo and help ourselves!! good luck to everyone training -hang in there and make a difference!
jo lee <jo.kunchai@ntlworld.com>
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 09:35:58 (BST)
Well said Ange
If we all just shut up and get on with it then all we will ever be is a HCA. The staff love a student who gets on with it, it keeps us in our place and we fit in don't we! How will we ever learn to be nurses unless we are taught nursing procedure? I find myself asking to be taught different things most of the time.
anita
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 21:46:26 (BST)
JOHANNA
Thornbury have got work for you in all the best places.......0117 9741538.......www.nursing-agency.com.......click on the link above........we'll be very pleased to hear from you.......
angela thompson
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 12:42:18 (BST)
Whinging students
Does anyone beleive that it was anything other than 'whinging' that got students a 10.4% pay rise next September? The only way to secure further improvements in our conditions is be our own advocates and make sure those in power are made to understand how we feel. The national minimum wage, more respect at work were won when people decided to become whingers and start standing up for themselves. There can be no other way.
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 12:41:00 (BST)
can anyone name me good agencies to do auxillary work over the summer in london, bristol or cardiff?
Jo <johannacima@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:55:32 (BST)
damn!
that was meant to read 'is'!
ange
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:31:37 (BST)
Hhhhhmmmmmm........................
So Emily, you think the way students are treated will never change and that we should all shut up and get on with it? Whilst I agree to a point that 'just getting on with it' can be the simplest coping mechanism, I dont think the issues in question should be ignored. I'm afraid its attitudes like yours that have left nursing exactly where it it - nowhere!
ange
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:30:30 (BST)
whinging students
i just want to write to complain about all the moaning students out there, no matter what you say or think, there will always be someone who is worse off than yourself !!!. If you really want to become nurses then shut up and get on with it !!!. I know its hard, I ve got five and a half months left of whats been the best and worst three years of my life. The worst having to undertake some assignments i do not really understand, being ignored by staff on the wards and being given petty tasks to do simply because I am a "student". On the other hand, Iv been made welcomed on many placements, been praised for my work by staff and patients (doesn't this make it all worthwhile). No matter how many times we moan and groan about things, it will never change. Maybe it's about time, that we just get on with it, just think of how bad most staff nurses get treated and maybe we will realise that we get it easier being students !!!. Won't it be worthwhile in the end !!!.
emily richmond
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 09:20:49 (BST)
Nursing in North America
In Canada and America, there are two grades of nurses, the LPN and the RN (RN's can then be divided into diploma and degree levels). The LPN is a two year course. In Canada, we spend about $3200 on tuition, our uniforms plus shoes run in at around $350, textbooks $800 - $l000. The LPN is the lowest paid level of nursing. Depending on the employer, it can be 5 LPN's under the direction of one RN. In the facilities, I've had clinical experiences in the LPN has done most of the physical aspects of patient care while the RN focuses on the paperwork. The family and patient doesn't care which grade of nurse is providing the care. The LPN leaves college owing about $7,500. The RN depending on the training anywhere between $12 - 20,000. There is a great pay discrepancy depending on the province of employment. The RN's in many areas look down on the LPN, but forget, that there are limited numbers of places in the training facilities for RN's. Two thirds of my LPN course more than exceeded the requirements for RN but couldn't get seats. In many areas, LPN's can upgrade to RN and get one years credit towards the diploma for education and experience. Got to end off now, as it's catheter insertion tomorrow.
Linda
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 23:15:22 (BST)
i am in my final year and am finding it difficult to stay focused. I too have found placements unsupportive. Yes you feel you can't complain as it may make you unpopular and jeopardise getting your learning outcomes met. I just feel that should i survive the last few months remaining I will never want to do nursing again.
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 22:41:48 (BST)
I read with much interest the last number of additions to this page concerning the attitude of employed staff to student nurses. I am just into my final year and I can say with complete honesty that I would not be prepared to start again knowing what I do now. The environment students are subject to continues to be an unsupportive one, thus leading to low morale resulting in many students leaving the course. Attitudes from employed staff, particulary HCA's leave much to be desired and can turn a potentially enjoyable and stimulating learning opportunity into a nightmare. I am sick of listening to lecturers who are unable to emphasise with the situation we are in and just tell us 'to get on with it'. Well, thats exactly what I've done - kept my head down for the sake of not being labelled. I only know that when I qualify I can make a difference to nursing. Right, enough of my whinging...........
ange
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 15:39:03 (BST)
So Yo Think It's Bad Here!!
I got sent this from a US Nursing site...a break down of a nursing course the Hours total 36 days!!!and look at the starting salary! Practical Nursing (H170605) Average Program Length · 1350 hrs Approximate Costs Application Fee $10 Registration Fee $15 Tuition $315/quin. Books $350 Books to start $150 Lab Fee $20/quin. Uniforms, Equipment, Supplies $250 Health Professional Liability Insurance $35 Approximate Total Course Cost $2300 Pre-Requisite · FDLE background check, TABE testing, H.S. Diploma or GED, others (See program office) COURSE CONTENT: Includes theoretical instruction and clinical experience in medical, surgical, obstetric, pediatric, and geriatric nursing, theoretical instruction and clinical experience in both acute and long term care situations, theoretical instruction and clinical application of vocational role and function, personal, family and community health concepts, nutrition, human growth and development over the life span body structure and function, interpersonal relationship skills, mental health concepts, pharmacology and administration of medications, legal aspects of practice and current issues in nursing, bloodborne pathogens. Prepares students for employment as Licensed Practical Nurses Approximate Starting Salary · $23,500 to 30,300/yr (Source: The Guide 2000) Job Placement: Rate · 95% (1994-95)
Dave <davidking@sparkles.synergie.net>
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 14:38:44 (BST)
Putting the HCA's in the know about what a student nurse is there for would be half the battle. I think every clinical area should have notices in the staff room explaining the role of the student and point out that we are not there to make their lives easier
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 10:37:55 (BST)
God! This is a crazy situation, student nursing is a battle all the way isn't it?? Something really does need doing - It is like being thrown into a den of lions!! All we want is to become nurses for goodness sake
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 10:35:58 (BST)
Its allright ive been qualified six weeks and have only just found out how to do a CSU myself!
- Monday, April 16, 2001 at 19:41:53 (BST)
I have conquered the tea trolley though!
- Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 17:16:57 (BST)
Yes something really needs to be done about the lack of support whilst on placement. My friend did the traditional training and they had people on the wards specifically to teach students at least twice a week, this would stop the HCA's using us and we would also be learning vital skills. I am 1 year into my training and have only just done a CSU and learnt how to do obs properly!! Ridiculous!!
- Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 17:16:13 (BST)
Yes, I am totally disillusioned with the whole idea of becoming a nurse. I have to pay a childminder now that it is the holidays, I have to have a part time job as well so that I can claim my Tax Credit, I am absolutely shattered and am not sure if it is worth it in the end for £15,500 pa. The only nice part is knowing that the patients like me and I can make them smile even when they are dying!
- Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 10:13:05 (BST)
i agree students are taken advantage of. Students are frequently ignored by their mentors. Not given support or adequate teaching. Some mentors' skills seriously need updating too. Yes and being used as an HCA is a common problem. I have been in situations where there is much to be learnt and then told 'go and give out the meals'. I am seriously disillusioned with the lack of support for students in clinical placements
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 19:20:06 (BST)
By the way, I already work weekends in a pub so it isn't that I am lazy it is just that I think we are taken advantage of all the time!
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:25:25 (BST)
Oh and the attitude of one particular staff nurse towards patients and students is disgusting!! When a student asked her for some salad cream to complement a patients lunch, she was told that if there wasn't any in the fridge then he would have to go and buy some!! That is only one mild example and she has already been reported to the School of Nursing for ignoring one particular student for 4 days when she was supposed to be her mentor! when the student pointed this out, she replied with "so".
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:21:41 (BST)
Supernumery????????
Isn't being supernumery a joke???? I have just done an early shift and it is bank holiday. The employed staff managed 2 bays with 1 staff nurse whilst the other 2 bays were looked after by a staff nurse who has been qualified for a week, and 3 supernumery students, one which was me!! mmmmm superb skill mix there then!!! I don't believe that students should be made to work weekends or bank holidays as it really is taking the piss is it not????? The HCA's treat us as another pair of hands there to make their job easier, whilst the majority of qualified staff just leave you to get on with it!!! Unbelievable!! Well, there is no way on this earth that I am working on Easter Monday, especially not for £2.60 an hour whilst everyone else is on time and a half!!! No Chance!!!!
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:16:57 (BST)
need a summer job.
RES SIR I AM VERY ANXIOS TO GET A SUMMER JOB IN DEL. PLS HELP ME N I HAVE GIVEN EXAM OF CLASS 12. PLS HELP AS I RELY N TRUST ON U FULLY.
aparna mehra <aparnamehra_17@yahoo.com>
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 10:39:00 (BST)
need a summer job.
RES SIR I AM VERY ANXIOS TO GET A SUMMER JOB IN DEL. PLS HELP ME N I HAVE GIVEN EXAM OF CLASS 12. PLS HELP AS I RELY N TRUST ON U FULLY.
aparna mehra <aparnamehra_17@yahoo.com>
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 10:38:13 (BST)
The return of Matron
So matron is to return at last! I can hear the applause from the 'it was better in our day brigade' from here. Is it a serious attempt to improve patient care or is it just a cynical attempt by a government to appease the daily mail reading reactionary part of england? Unfortunately i believe it is the latter, how would a return to Matron actually improve care? Some people believe that Matron would return to rule the wards with a rod of iron and would have special responsibility for the cleanliness of the wards. The question i want to ask is who would actually do the cleaning? Matron? Nurses? Nursing Auxilliaries? The reason that many wards and hospitals are filthy is not because the era of Matron ever came to an end but because cynical cost cutting by hospital mangement and the then tory governmnent led to a reduction in the number of domestic staff to carry out the cleaning tasks. The idea that by stepping back in time someone, ie. Matron would be able to wave a magic wand and solve all of the problems afflicting the health service are just ridiculous. The major problems affecting the health service are chronic mismanagement and poor staff morale. The fact that health service staff dont get paid anywhere near enough doesnt help either. And what of Matron? how will male nurses fit into this role? What will they be called? Will they be any different from todays ward managers? What sort of message will it send to other nursing nations who are developing forward when we are returning backwards. is there a case of the rose-tinted spectacles blinding politicians to what really needs to be done on the wards to improve conditions. By going back to Matron, Nursing is taking a HUGE step backwards, one form which it may never recover.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 20:26:16 (BST)
Uniforms
At Kingston we get 2 pairs of trousers,three tunic tops and one cardigan. We don't get any dresses as we arn't given the option to wear one.
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 19:59:31 (BST)
Uniforms
4 certainly isnt many, particulary if you on a placement like A&E..........however htings dont improve much on qualifying. Most full time nurses are only issued with as few as 6 to keep them going. Back to the NHS philosphy of survival.........beg, steal or borrow. Is it any wonder we have so many hospital acquired infections!!
india
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 12:24:54 (BST)
Student nurses uniforms
Hello all. How many uniforms are other student nurses issued with at other universities? We are with the university of Nottingham and are issued with 4, not even enough for a weeks placement! We are trying to get this altered as it is just not good enough!I would like to know if anyone gets any more or less than 4? I realise that this is an ongoing issue and it has probably been raised many times before, however the new diploma in nursing requires longer and more frequent placements. All replies gratefully received.
Mark C <nqyumc1@notingham.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 12:16:19 (BST)
FREE TRAVEL & TICKETS TO CONCERT IN MANCHESTER FOR Y&H STUDENT NURSES IN UNISON
ATTENTION - ALL STUDENT NURSES IN YORKS & HUMBER You know what it's like to live on next to nothing! Join the Campaign for a Living Wage in Manchester on Saturday 28 April 2001. RALLY & FREE EVENING CONCERT featuring Catatonia, Toploader, Idlewild, Dum Dums and Wheatus. There are 49 FREE PLACES available on a first come - first served - basis to attend this all-day event. This includes free transport to and from the event and free entry to the evening concert. There is a special coach available but with a limited bus route starting Leeds and picking up in Huddersfield and Bradford and there are spaces available on a bus from Hull. To reserve your place and ticket contact: Karen Towner, UNISON Organiser on 0113 2182347 or email me on k.towner@unison.co.uk no later than 16 April Leave clear details of your name, address, telephone number and preferred city pick up. If you haven't heard from us by 23 April you have not been allocated a ticket, sorry. Coach departs from Leeds at 9.00 am ish picking up in Bradford and Huddersfield and departs from Manchester at approx 10.30 pm. Transport and tickets have been paid for by: Yorkshire & Humberside Region of UNISON.
Karen Towner <k.towner@unison.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 10:21:54 (BST)
Probationary nurses: sounds good to me
Mike in reply to your idea about employing student nurses as 'trainee' staff nurses for the last six months sounds like a bloody good idea to me. Speakimg as a newly qualified staff nurse (8 weeks!!) the leap from student to staff nurse is HUGE!! talk about a learning curve. I dont think the training prepared me for the step up. This idea of a probationary nurse is certainly a good one allthhough it does raise some ideas about accountability? What does everyone else think?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, April 09, 2001 at 19:53:22 (BST)
Re 4th April Dominic Forestal
Dominic you mis-understand, this was not a swipe at the work of UNISON which I am sure is excellent. It was actually a swipe at you presonally for your persistent attacks at the work of the RCN. It's not about victories for UNISON its about a better deal for all student nurses now theres a good boy, grow up and stop being a pathetic little individual. The RCN seem to have the same goals as UNISON it just seems to me that they go about their work in a much more civilised manner than you do.
- Monday, April 09, 2001 at 13:36:46 (BST)
THANATOLOGY
What is it?
Ron Hubbard
- Monday, April 09, 2001 at 04:31:40 (BST)
rehab
what is the role of the nurse in the rehabilitation process
susan thomson <robbiemacg@aol.com>
- Friday, April 06, 2001 at 16:05:13 (BST)
New Site
We have a new site, CEU2000.com, at http://www.ceu2000.com. CEU2000 provides affordable continuing healthcare education and career services in Nursing, Behavioral Health and Medicine. It offers healthcare chat rooms, forums, inspirational content, humor, many professional resources including cultural diversity and thanatology resources and much, much more. If you have any questions please contact me: Christina McMurray RN, BSN Healthcare Education Coordinator Orion Healthcare Technology http://www.orionhealthcare.com http://www.ceu2000.com http://www.healthcarewriters.com Ph: (800) 324-7966 Fx: (402) 341-8911 Intl: 011-1-402-341-8880 E-Mail: christina@orionhealthcare.com Thank you for your time.
Christina McMurray <christina@orionhealthcare.com>
- Friday, April 06, 2001 at 14:50:19 (BST)
Help! Calling all Nurses and Student Nurses...
If anybody fancies a change of scene and tempo we are looking to recruit nurses for our American-style International Summer Camps. Superb coastal, rural and London locations, great lifestyle, friendly working environment...if you'd like an alternative summer experience please contact me at doogie@campbeaumont.com
Dougie Finlay <doogie@campbeaumont.com>
- Friday, April 06, 2001 at 10:00:49 (BST)
Enquiry from a dumb outsider..
Dear Anyone, I am a researcher for a Soho-based television and film production company called Mustard. We are currently developing the script for a short feature film in which one of the characters is a nurse, and I was wondering if you could help me with some (rather ignorant, I'm afraid) questions about nursing and nurses. Although this nurse character is not a central one, and the fact that she is nurse is not really an integral part of the film, we want to make things as realistic as possible, and so I would be very grateful if you could give some advice on the following very simple issues. This character is a mother with two daughters - one a teenager, the other about 8 years old - and so is probably in her mid to late 30s'. If she has been a nurse 'from the beginning', and is hardworking and competent, what would be her likely 'rank' (is there such a thing in nursing?), what kind of hours might she work, and in what kind of hospital department could she work(she does work in a hospital, that much is certain). Or are these non-questions with no real definite answer? Also, what kind of clothing or uniform would a nurse of her level and experience wear? Or would this again be extremely variable? I would really appreciate any help on these questions, and of course we will be happy to credit you in the final film if you are able to help. I can be contacted on richardldhughes@hotmail.com, I hope I can hear from at least someone! Yours, Richard Hughes
richard hughes <richardldhughes@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 11:31:27 (BST)
10.4% to be precise!!!
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 20:35:50 (BST)
Student Nurse bursaries
From what I gather, we're getting a 10.3%(ish) payrise which will take effect in September 2001. This means that those on the lowest bursary will get £40 per month more. I know it's not as much as we deserve, and the fight from Unison and RCN to get the bursary raised is far from over, but it's better than a kick in the teeth at the end of the day. I've heard from one source that Alan Milburn was once considering putting us all on grants and loans, but I don't know how true that is.
Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 19:21:33 (BST)
Pathetic?
Some people may consider the work UNISON has done pathetic but it has been rather effective. I'm certainly not going to apologise.
Dominic
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 14:37:27 (BST)
elective placement
hi i am interested in doing my elective somewhere in america (would have prefered thaiand but cant speak any thai :( i was wondering if anyone had any information, contacts, experience etc they could send me cheers guys and girls dan
daniel allerton <dja199@soton.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 10:57:24 (BST)
Staff levels.
We hear so much about the shortage of nurses. I think a good way to help the situation would be to employ students full time (and of course on full pay) in the last 6 months of their training, as probational staff nurses. This would lead to more staff on the wards and at the end of their training they would be more confident to tackle the roll of "staff nurse". Obviously certain safe guards would have to be built in to the plan to stop the management from abusing the situation butI feel with the RIGHT planing it could work well.
Mike
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 21:06:20 (BST)
I dont believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
does anyone know the info on student burserys for the diploma students being raised by £500 per annum???????
zoe murrell <zoemurrell@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:22:48 (BST)
Dominic you are pathetic grow up
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:07:55 (BST)
Suren wanted to defect to Unison
fortunately he was persuaded to 'keep up the fight' in ANS. The RCN/ANS can keep him! Is there anyone he hasn't acused of being racist/corrupt/arrogant/sexist/you name it, in either NUS or the RCN at some point?
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 13:20:15 (BST)
Representation of HCA's
The key part of being able to represent your members is being recognised by the employer as the union for that particular staff group. UNISON has sole recognition in the overwhelming majority of NHS trusts for representing HCA's and so therefore would be the only union recognised by the trust to represent students who are working additional hours on their trust's bank during their training. For registered nurses, midwives and health visitors recognised union's include UNISON amongst other's in the NHS.
Dominic forristal <D.Forristal2@unison.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:27:46 (BST)
U've missed the boat in Belfast!
Another supposed RCN bastion where in fact nothing has been done for students - not now - not ever. Students were being fleeced for the costs of their uniform and they even had to fork out for a university fleece which cost £50. UNISON has put a stop to that! But this moring - after seeing the posting I wrote yesterday they've now decided that have to try and regain some credibility by meeting with the department of health in Northern Ireland this Wednesday. Sorry mate, we did that one two weeks ago! Isn't there an ANS executive member who studies at Queens? Why wasn't he doing anything about this one? Maybe he was too busy brushing shoulders with the great and the good at the RCN's new plush HQ?
Dominic Forristal <D.Forristal2@unison.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:01:59 (BST)
Oh for the heady days of last Sptember. The talk of ANS Conference was in the air and the debate on this board controversial challenging and a bloody good read. One almost feels like begging for the return of that fine craftsmen of pour mother tongue Suren Suku. Let's put some passion back in to the debate. It looks like a June General Election so lets air the issues that matter COME BACk SUREN WE MISS U LOTS
Have You All Gone Tame Again <Let The Passion Return>
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 18:20:32 (BST)
Well Christmas has come and gone What Have you achieved Suren??? Can we now judge you????? Empty promises on your Personal crussade
This is what Suren asked for back in September!!!! "when i am in office i am going to arrange meetings with various people who are responsible for student funding and bursaries. i am also campaigning to drop off vat on all study materials and student related items. all i am asking give me a chance and not knock me off before i even took office. the email i sent to Roger Obermaier was a personal issue and not a public one. i had that choice of responding to him on the website but i chose not to be offensive and treat him in the manner he has treated me. i respect peoples views and opinions and i would expect the same in return. roger give me a chance and if by christmas you do not see any difference then u are welcome to question me and criticise me. as long as i have not taken office please keep your criticisms till then. PLEASE GIVE ME A CHANCE ..... I HAVE NOT YET TAKEN OFFICE.....SUPPORT ME AND I WILL DO MY BEST FOR ALL OF YOU.......NURSES AND NURSING STUDENTS. suren suku" CHRISTMAS HAS COME AND GONE AND WHAT OF YOUR EMPTY RHETORIC???? What is quoted below below is real, the quote above was nothing but hot air "WHEN THEY SEE WHAT I STAND FOR AND SEE THE CHANGES .....THEY WOULD JUDGE ME ON THAT AND NOT ON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE......I MERELY RESPONDED TO YOUR POSTINGS...SEEMS LIKE U DO NOT LIKE THE REPLIES YOU GET U ATTACK ME AND TRY TO MAKE ME THE BAD GUY....WELL THUS FAR I HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR UNITY AND WORKING TOGETHER......HAVE ANY OF YOU SAID YES WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER......THAT SAYS A LOT...RACISM IS NOT WHAT WRITTEN OR SAID BY A PERSON....IT IS THE ACTION THAT SPEAKS LOUDER THAN THEIR WORDS....GOOD BYE AND GOD BLESS....NOW LEAVE ME ALONE I GOT BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN RESPOND TO SILLY POSTINGS LIKE THESE....."
Diappointed of Anywhere
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 17:57:27 (BST)
A wee bit of clarification
I recently read a Unison letter from their Chair of Students that claimed that only UNISON provided full Trade Union Representation for Student Nurses working as HCA's. I'm an RCN and was assured that they too provided me with full support when working as an HCA. I'm worried now can somone please tell me the truth?? Are the RCN misleading me or are UNISON misleading potential recruits???? HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 17:08:49 (BST)
Being fleeced for a fleece?
Students at Queens University in Belfast are being forced to buy a university fleece as a complusary part of their 'uniform'. The DoH here in NI is going to put a stop to it after UNISON exposed it after being contacted to students who were pissed off contacted us. Do any other universities try any of this on? Contact me if your uni attempts anything like this.
Dominic Forristal <D.Forristal2@unison.co.uk>
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 13:50:18 (BST)
I think I will become a whore too!!! perhaps we could open a brothel and only choose the sexy clients!!! The stress I am going through at the moment is far too much, my 6 year old causes most of it though!!!!
Anita
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 11:00:14 (BST)
someone help
i am 20 years old and in my first year of nursing i was wondering if anyone out their can help me with a tone of assigments i have due in the next 2 weeks.anyway its pretty cool that we have this site.
shawn <shunt_69@hotmail.com>
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 04:34:42 (BST)
THATS IT, I,M OFF.
Sorry but I am now so fed up with it all that i am now going to become a whore. It must be better this lot of tripe. I may even ejoy it.
Emma
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 18:52:20 (BST)
Oh dear!
Reading some of your comments boys and girls. I have come to the conclusion that some of you would be more suited to a career on a building site than nursing. DO YOU F-----G LOT get my drift. Is it any wonder that the NHS is like it is when articles like some of you are trying to kid us, (jo public) that you are nice, respectable, caring, people who want to care for others. Pull the other one.
Student's parent.
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 16:38:47 (BST)
twats!
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 15:00:01 (BST)
where does it state that names and email addresses must be given???????
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 09:57:43 (BST)
'ere 'ere
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 09:56:05 (BST)
Why oh why do the most gullible and naiive always sign their names to everything......
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 00:55:09 (BST)
- Monday, April 30, 2001 at 21:10:48 (BST)
The diploma bursary is non-means tested and you can earn what you like I think, as long as it is part time. I'll be very surprised if you can manage any more than 16 hours a week (unless you don't have kids then maybe you can) I struggle doing 12 hours!!!!
- Monday, April 30, 2001 at 21:09:51 (BST)
Diploma bursary - means tested or not?????
I'd like to apply for a part time job, but as the job i want to apply for pays more than my annual bursary entitlement I understand (according to NHS-SGU literature)that this will cancel my entitlement to recieving anything at all (even though the diploma bursary is apparently meant to be 'non means tested'). However I often hear of student nurses who claim to work 28-30 hours a week which must take them above their bursary entitilement?????? I'd appreciate it if anyone can shed any light on the matter Thanks
- Monday, April 30, 2001 at 19:00:15 (BST)
I am not so proud of it now!
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 20:09:22 (BST)
Sorry!!!!!
Sorry to all of you that I offended. It must have been PMT or I was a bit p***ed. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 20:08:00 (BST)
is anybody else feeling disillusioned? I am in my final year and feel like i am going off nursing completely. I feel burnt out before i've even qualified. I feel like my whole life is 'nursing' and just want to be a free agent again.
claire
- Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 19:56:46 (BST)
Quite!!!!
- Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 14:42:04 (BST)
This message board should be open to all nursing staff wishing to make a contribution. If someone like Jane is using it the way she is,she is going to drive a wedge between HCA's and student nurses.
colin
- Friday, April 27, 2001 at 21:19:18 (BST)
JOIN US AT THE BRUTISH CYBER CAFE
Hello All.... Be sure to join the Brutish Team at this years RCN Congress, in Harrogate 20th - 25th May 2001.
The team from Brutish will be running a Cyber Café for the duration of the exhibition, so why not visit Stand C143, in Hall C, and join in the fun. We will have some great prizes to give away, in our Brutish Raffle, including state-of-the-art mountain bikes, mobile phones, HMV & Virgin Vouchers, and lots of other great stuff.
Or, why not just pop in for a free drink, and surf the web for your favourite sites (including Brutish-Nursing.com of course ! )
Not only that, we will be hosting a FREE Student Reception, the BIG BRUTISH BOOZE UP, ON Wednesday evening, between 6 and 8PM, at the Cairn Hotel, Harrogate.
There will be a FREE Bar for all attending. Just call at the Stand for your ticket. Or, why not become one of our roving team of Congress reporters. Update the Brutish Site during Congress, and win more great prizes, including everyone's favourite....READY CASH !!
Watch the site for more details, or email me, or the Brutish Webmaster with your comments and questions. See you at Congress..... Be Bold, Be Brutish!
Phillip Hufton - Development Manager <phillip.hufton@thornbury-nursing-services.co.uk>
- Friday, April 27, 2001 at 10:33:06 (BST)
Tired of reading "Jane HCA and proud of it"
As I read through the messages on this website it strikes me that some people, mentioning no names........oh all right then "Jane HCA and proud of it" have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Jane, is english your first language? In fact is earth your home planet? You may well moan about Student Nurses, but we are a product of the environment which people like you provide. If you cannot be bothered with us,pray tell why we should pull out the stops to accommodate bitter and twisted individuals like yourself. I was an HCA before I started the course and with 8 months left to go I would appreciate all the help I can get, especially from the HCA's who do have a lot to give Students in the way of experience. If you give us Students a hard time, don't expect any favours when we qualify. Oh and by the way, this site is dedicated to Student Nurses not HCA's, if it was then it would say "Welcome HCA's" but it doesn't soooooo........BOG OFF!
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 22:20:22 (BST)
Pseuds, you gotta love em!
"I am more caring than all the staff nurses in the world and twice as caring and I have a BA in Eutracian Pottery circa 3000 b.c.", well aren't you just an all round super f***ing star. Thanks Jane, you help me believe in Darwin.
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 21:58:07 (BST)
damn......I meant Mick! Sorry Mick!
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 21:21:17 (BST)
You're an embarrassment to other HCA's Jane
Actually, 'Jane HCA and proud of it', no one said you have to be a HCA did they? So if your working conditions are so poor then why do you stick with it? Obviously, seeing all these 'useless student nurses standing around' will do nothing for job satisfaction will it? I have come to the conclusion that you are jealous of the fact that people half your age are training for a good career, whilst you earn minimum wage. I bet you hate being delegated to don't you Jane? I've met many an HCA with a similar attitude to yours. Well, I'm afraid if you don't possess the qualifications to train to be a nurse, it's no good trying to 'belittle' student nurses who have, and turn your jealousy into childish bitching. I really think you need to take a trip up maturity lane before you embarrass yourself further. Oh, and dont try the 'I've got so much money' attack. A-its childish, B-it makes you look even more foolish than you presently do and c-it's more than likely a complete fabrication!!! Just to conclude, in response to Mike, the majority of HCA's are fantastic and contribute tremendously to the nursing care team. It's just a shame there are people like 'Jane-HCA and proud of it'.........
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 21:20:36 (BST)
HCAs
Please don't think that all HCAs are anywhere near like Jane. I am certainly not and i know the ones that i work with are not ether. I am a HCA because i do not have the grades to do my nurse training. I think Jane you are a bad example of all the HCAs that i have worked with. Just out of intrest Jane, are you on 'the game'? I asked because you seem to be very well off for a HCA.
Mick
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 18:34:18 (BST)
I worked part time as an A grade(non agency) in London before I started my training and got 7 pounds an hour aswell as family credit - my previous job had been in a fast food restaurant for 3 pounds an hour - twice the work and a fraction of the gratitude!!!!!!
- Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 10:21:06 (BST)
yeah......so bog off our page jane
!!!!!!!!!
russ
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 23:08:00 (BST)
this is a postboard for student nurses/nurses. This is a place for like minded people to share their experiences and troubles. There is no room for health care assistants with a huge chip on their shoulders.
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 21:40:44 (BST)
Continued
I'm just glad I'm not on a placement with Jane ! Unlike some of the other women on here, I fortunately have no dependants. If I did, I honestly do not know how i would cope, both financially and emotionally. The bursary students receive is meagre. I find it extremely difficult to survive on it, and i'm not out every night fluttering it away in London. Even with a London weighting it doesn not get very far. Jane, we are not asking for a medal because we are nursing. We are asking for some RECOGNITION. Have you tried doing assignments when you are dead to the work after your night placements ? Have you had to work in a bar aswell as Uni and Placements because you'd end up in debt if you didn't ? All we want is some support. I'm training in nursing because I care. We all deserve a decent opportunity to train as nurses without living in borderline poverty !
Ellie
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:59:02 (BST)
Jane
Is Jane for real ? I wonder if she can remove her head from her arse to answer that one ?
Ellie
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:51:42 (BST)
You live pretty well on your measly wage Jane!! Why didn't you do your training then if the money is going to be so good for us??? At 36 I will be lucky to get beyond E grade before retirement
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:16:43 (BST)
How I am going to survive another 2 years of placements, study, work and a daughter with ADHD, living on a crap bursary is beyond me!!
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:14:44 (BST)
No one -
told you that you would HAVE to be a student nurse did they? From where I am standing it looks like the nurses of the future will be a load of moaners who think that the world owes them a favour. If it is getting you down, then find another job. I love my VERY HARD WORK job. The patients do not asked to be there. I own my house, nice car. I employ a cleaner/cook and I have a fair bit of money in the bank. A very lucky cow really. My 4 children are fine but my husband is disabled and cannot work.So what? I don't think you can give me any lessions in bringing up a family and trying to make ends meet, or how to nurse a patient. You might only receive a 'measly bursary' at the moment but after you have trained you will be a D, then maybe a E,F,G, and so on. If your face really fits then you may well end up as a manager. In the meantime those of us who do the REAL nursing will still be struggling, Oops mus'nt moan, on A Grade or if I am really,really lucky I might be made up to a B grade.Tough life.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 20:13:12 (BST)
What would you know Jane?
Jane, after reading your recent contributions to this page, I can only suggest you have a HUGE CHIP on your shoulder. Have you ever started your training? Have you ever had to juggle full time hours with endless hours of study, assignments, presentations, seminars, exams AND part time work! On top of this do you have the responsibility of rasing a young family and trying to survive of a measly bursary? Its attitudes like yours that make students placements a misery. Until you can emphasise with what we have to put up with I suggest you keep your pitiful opinions to yourself.
- Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 21:35:19 (BST)
all I am saying is, yes, HCA's are invaluable and I have learnt a lot from them in my recent placement, but also I have learnt very few clinical procedures and absolutely nothing about admissions and discharges etc from trained staff as even though I am not counted in the numbers I am seen as an extra pair of hands to get the work done quicker and this is not the role of the student.
- Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 12:21:54 (BST)
jane
as a registered nurse you are responsible for your own professional development and making sure you are familiar with policies and procedures. If you fail to follow those and the guidelines set out by the ukcc code of conduct you will be help negligent.
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 23:00:29 (BST)
Accountability does-
applies to everone. Sure if you have been training for the past 3 years to become a nurse, then it is fair to expect that you will have at least some idea of what you are about. The trust and it's managers also have a large duty of accountability. If you are not given the right amout of support and something goes wrong they may be guilty of negligence, as proved in a recent court case. To Robin yes you are right I am a bit of a fraud I have a BA, but I am still proud to be an HCAs.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 20:04:35 (BST)
Jane - It is constantly drummed into us that when we make mistakes as a qualified nurse then it is OUR OWN registration that is at risk, not a line managers or anyone else for that matter!!! Accountability!!!!!!!
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 09:32:01 (BST)
Kings Interviews
HI, I've applied to Kings College to do A Diploma in Nursing. I was wonderering if anyone else on here is currently studying there and could give me the lowdown on what it's like ? What the interview was like, the course etc... It will be much appreciated. Thanks. Siobhan xxx
Siobhan McCall <Siobhan17UK@aol.com>
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 07:59:19 (BST)
jane
as a HCSW ( and very proud of it) for 10 yrs before qualifiying as a registered nurse, i can honestly say that the difference between the 2 roles is tremendous. i cant be arsed to go in to the differences, as im to mentally knackered, as well as physically knackered!!!! you dont know till youve been there, and believe me...ive been there...if students are crap, its because people (wether trained or untrained) couldnt be bothered to teach them. As a student, i had good and bad placements. those placements where i was used to take the place of bank staff to save the ward budget (and that was the norm , believe me!)i wouldnt give the time of day as a qualified member of staff. until wards realise the value of their students...they will suffer. i once worked as a student on a ward where the SR , at the ward meeting, mentioned bringing in school children on work experience to boost recruitment and encourage more young people in to nursing. there were 2 students on that ward, we ran 28 beds during that meeting...the HCSW told us what went on in the meeting! until u start treating your students right, u cant expect to gain staff. as for HCSW's slagging students off, if u wanna be a staff nurse, drop your pay and survive on a bursary like we did....dont say u cant afford to, because i took the sacrifice, im in debt up to my eyeballs and i wont benefit from the wage for 5 yrs, all for giving my job up as a HCSW 2 become a student!
sarah
- Monday, April 23, 2001 at 01:26:36 (BST)
Jane, I think you are a phoney. You've got to be with an attitude like that, come on admit you're taking the piss!!!
robin
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 22:25:22 (BST)
The One THING!
That a lot of you seem to miss is when you become a staff nurse you are not expected to take charge of the whole NHS, you will have a line manager. If they drop you into the deep end and things go pear shaped then it is they who carry the can not you.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 22:10:48 (BST)
Concerns of HCAs
I too feel that the acaedemics within the nursing profession have a lot to answer for in what is wrong with nursing today! It is all very well undertaking research then sitting and writing policies but these so called nurses should be asked when they last visited a ward or department and actually spoke with the staff trying to undertake their research and policies! Equally as important, they should speak with the patients receiving the nursing care! There is now something that HCAs can do to raise their concerns. They can now join the RCN! Come along and participate at branch meetings. Meet the few members who do attend branch meetings month by month as they are the nurses in my opinion who are really concerned about nursing!
RCN Activist
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 20:45:38 (BST)
Horses for courses, the HCA -v- the Student Nurse saga continues....
As a student nurse awaiting the opportunity to resit, I am currently employed as a theatre assistant in the department I hope to work in once qualified. I do, on occassion, get frustrated with the Consultants and Registrars that I have to work for. However, I allow myself the luxury of not pretending that I could do their job, as I am quite aware of the differences in academic and intellectual abilities they demonstrate. I do my job to the best of my ability and imagine that they do as well, naive perhaps but as I do not actually know how to do their job, perhaps the safest option. I imagine that if I do not succeed in my resit, I will be offered the chance to work as a TA for as long as they or I want the arrangement. I feel pretty sure that if I work in that department for another ten years I will still be no closer to becoming a consultant. I can see how that could chafe on an ego, but I hope that if that happens, I wont fall into the trap of regarding all the medics as idle, imbecilic dullards. Perhaps I will have the humility to realise that if I were blessed with the intellect and the opportunity, I could try and prove that I were their superior but I might be wiser to shut up, as indeed could others....
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 20:19:32 (BST)
Students need supporting not criticising
Rachel as a fellow newly qualified staff nurse (8 weeks and counting)the learning curve is HUGE. As a student you are simply not prepared for the responsibility of becoming an RGN. As you quite righlty stated HCA's and students can allways pass on there problems to a qualified nurse. But we do have to accept that the buck stops with us. The lack of support from nursing staff both qualified and unqualified hampers the development of the student nurse. The fact that i spent the last 12 months of my training being nothing more than another pair of hands didnt help. The role of the staff nurse is far far different from what i imagined it to be. The only way to prepare students for this step up is to let them do it under supervision in their training. Wasnt that the reason for the setting up of P2K in the first place? The reaction that many students (myself included) recieve from many HCA's is at best unhelpfull and at worst potentially damaging. Students should not be there to make up the numbers and whilst i appreciate that there are aspects of hands-on care that students need to learn there are the myriad of other tasks that a staff nurse performs that the student is not prepared for. My argument is that how many times does a student need to learn how to wash a patient? Or make beds? What they do need to be taught is how to complete discharges, how to perform assessments etc All of this needs to be done in a positive atmosphere, one which is free from accusations that because a student is doing 'paperwork' or because they are not emptying bed-pans or making beds then they are somehow shirking there work. May i remind people that students are there to LEARN and not do our jobs for us. As employees we get PAID to perform the jobs that we do, students do not.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@kris54.fs.net.co.uk>
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 20:14:41 (BST)
It's down to you.
From my experience, 24 years of it, the present student nurse training has a lot to be desired, but I have found that some students go on to become very good staff nurses and some go on to be useless and I must say it bloody dangerous. Some will never make a nurse all the time that they have a hole in their arse. That said, most are very good and lovely to work with. Where I feel the fault really lies is in the academic world. They are the one's who leave you to 'just to get on with it'. If it were down to me I would take it up with them or the head of the college, but as a HCA there is not a lot I can do about it. HCAs do the work that others don't want to do. All the students that are useless normally go on to become senior managers. Now you know why the NHS is in the state that it is.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 18:55:16 (BST)
I am a student and have also been a HCA and I'm sorry but I do understand what nursing is about and I work bloody hard on placement AS A HCA! This is not what we are supposed to be learning, we already know how to be one and yes I can learn new practical skills from HCA's as well but there are procedures and paperwork and responsibilities that HCA's are not allowed to do, so how do we learn them before qualifying???????? apart from that I resent being on placement on bank holidays when HCA's are on time and a half and we are on £2.60 an hour and yet we are expected to lighten the workload for everyone - If we students hadn't been on the ward over easter there would have been no staff to wipe arses and pick up patients who fell over!!!
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 17:22:12 (BST)
To Mark Sellars
Are you really so naive? The pay in North America may look good on paper, but have you done any research into cost of living? Why do you think there are so many nursing vacancies on the continent? In Canada, it is extremely difficult to find a full time position. Many nurses work at 2 or 3 hospital in part time positions to make ends meet. In the US, you have to write your registration exams every time you move states. I have a friend who is registered in four different states due to the way her husband's job moves around. You pay every time to write the exam and the level of knowledge required varies. Has your wife discussed the cost of malpractice insurance, many, many nurses down there carry their own on top of what the facility provides, because suing is a national sport. She has to pay registration fees yearly, buy her own uniforms and shoes and pay for her own and her family's health insurance. Have you factored in how much housing costs. Housing can be very expensive, depending on where you live. Butfrom the tone of your letter, you think its all milk and honey. Get your wife to ask if overtime is optional or "voluntary" (four or five phonecalls a day requesting your presence). How long will it take her to get off night shifts, or does she have to bid on her hours, what union will she belong to. Remember, there are reasons for those vacancies and a shortage of training spaces can't be blamed for everything.
- Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 14:31:15 (BST)
Having been an HCA for years and a staff nurse for the last 6 months i am well aware of the nature of both positions. As an HCA you have a big hands on contribution to the care of patients. True when qualified your hands on care is paramount, but I totally overestimated the responsibility that as a staff nurse you have to take on your shoulders. The lack of support as a student nurse is very damaging when you qualify. The lack of management skills leave you feeling totally unprepared and thrown to the lions. I'm sorry Jane but unless you have experienced both sides of the fence I don't think you are in a position to criticise. As an HCA you can always pass the buck but as an RGN the buck stops at you.
rachel
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 23:28:36 (BST)
very!!!!!!!
well said Jane. It is about time someone told the moaning's a few home truths.
Emma
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 20:13:48 (BST)
Oh dear!
You can tell how angry I was when I wrote that by all the mistakes I made, but I meant every word it!
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 18:05:44 (BST)
Hear this you lot.
I am sick to death of student's who come to our ward and think they are something special. HCAs are NOT untrained we have been doing the job for years and most of us (where I work anyway) have done our NVQ3. When some of you say that you were looked at as 'just a pair of hands' what the hell do you want to do then, just stand in a corner and stare into space, while the patient;s mess themselves in bed or fall over flat on to their face. just because you felt that is was beyound you to help them when they needed it. I dont know if you know this but NURSING is about being able to use your HANDS for the benefit of those who are unable to use their own,IN THEIR TIME OF NEED. So stop moaning and be greatful that with your your good health you are able to care for others.
Jane HCA and proud of it.
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 17:03:30 (BST)
Why
To the last contributor. If what you say is true, which i doubt. Why have you mot made a point of going to see your rep? Why do you feel that he/she should come to you? He/she sound's like they are very good reps busy dealing with members problems. What you want to remember is that most union reps carry out the task of being a rep as well as doing their own job. A lot of my union work is done at home in my own time and at,i might add, at my own expence. It is people like you who make me feel that i want to say 'sod them' let them fight their own battles. Then i think of all the nice people that i meet so i carry on. Go to the RCN, go to who you want, but the fact of the matter is that you could not join a better union than UNISON.
Unison Rep.
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 16:34:02 (BST)
I think UNISON are useless I joined in Feb 99 and have still noy met a Rep when my pals in the RCN have regular meetings with theirs UNISON you are the weakest LINK GOOD BYE I'm off to join my pals in the RCN
- Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 00:18:57 (BST)
Passivity Must end
Unless Nurses themselves start to take action and i mean the industrial kind then conditions will NOT improve. Nurses have for to long been seen as the most passive of the groups within the health arena. Now with GP's threatening to strike isnt it time for the major nursing unions to make simular demands? I for one am fed up with only being able to 'firefight' and not being able to actually spend any time with any of my patients. I think that if action was even threatend the government would cave in and really look to improve conditions within the NHS. This would not only benefit staff but also patients and thats why were here after all.
Kristian Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, April 20, 2001 at 14:29:15 (BST)
Help for a Prospective Colleague
Well I have thought long and hard. I have researched the subject. I have considered giving up a salary fit for a Matron and god help me I have applied through NMAS. Then I came across this web site. HELP!!! I know its a tough job and I understand that its a hard life as a nursing student, but is it really the utter chaos mismanagement and unproffesionalism which I read about here. It clearly is in some areas but is it like that everywhere. If I get in I would be a very mature student at 43 I am male and I am a Londoner. I have applied for South Bank, Kings, Barts and Greenwhich. I would be very grateful for any feedback from students at these institutions. I'm pretty strong willed and I don't need to go on the assertiveness course so if I am constantly running into the type of managers, mentors and miseries that I read about here I'm apt to rebel. In a very proffesional manner but I will stand my ground. The bottom line is that my wife will kill me if I go for this and do not qualify. So please help me out here guys. Knowlege is power and all that. Feel free to email if you would rather not post. Many Thanks and Good Luck to all. Col
Col <cos.cws@virgin.net>
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 20:02:51 (BST)
Excellent pay in the USA.
I ahve read many articles about training courses for nurses that wish to take the NCLEX exam, and the huge fees thay have to pay. Taking the exam is well worth it as salaries start at around £24,000. My wife is working with a well known company that charges a total of £350. But you don't pay all at once - the first £100 is due at the start of the training programme plus 3 post dated cheques for £50. The final £100 is not due until you are working in the USA (or Aus, NZ, Canada, South Africa). These fees include the training pack 3 study days flights to and from Savannah Georgia USA. This trip is for 5 days - which includes 1 free day, 1 admin day, 2 intensive training days and the exam day. Once the exam is passed the Green cards are applied for. The minimum contract is 18 months after which several options are open - including the travelling nurse programme. You can choosw any state. We have chosen Florida or Texas. My wife goes to Georgia in July and we hope to move in November. Don't be shy give it a try. To learn more go to my website www.sellars-family.com Be appreciated and paid for what you are worth.
Mark Sellars <mark.sellars@virgin.net>
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 19:46:21 (BST)
Oh so unprofessional
The government is trying to suggest the teachers who take action to improve their conditions at work are 'unprofessional'. Is the label of being a true 'professional' worth having if it means you have to accept being treated unfairly?
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 13:27:31 (BST)
keepin yr head down
I felt like I should keep quiet at times but have learnt that if we dont speak out, the predominant attitude is "THATS THE WAY ITS ALWAYS BEEN" A. We are sick of hearing this on my course and are forming a student support forum for our year to help each other with just those attitudes that we encounter on placements. As thinking, feeling nurses (thats what they say they want us to become!) we have decided to challenge the status quo and help ourselves!! good luck to everyone training -hang in there and make a difference!
jo lee <jo.kunchai@ntlworld.com>
- Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 09:35:58 (BST)
Well said Ange
If we all just shut up and get on with it then all we will ever be is a HCA. The staff love a student who gets on with it, it keeps us in our place and we fit in don't we! How will we ever learn to be nurses unless we are taught nursing procedure? I find myself asking to be taught different things most of the time.
anita
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 21:46:26 (BST)
JOHANNA
Thornbury have got work for you in all the best places.......0117 9741538.......www.nursing-agency.com.......click on the link above........we'll be very pleased to hear from you.......
angela thompson
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 12:42:18 (BST)
Whinging students
Does anyone beleive that it was anything other than 'whinging' that got students a 10.4% pay rise next September? The only way to secure further improvements in our conditions is be our own advocates and make sure those in power are made to understand how we feel. The national minimum wage, more respect at work were won when people decided to become whingers and start standing up for themselves. There can be no other way.
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 12:41:00 (BST)
can anyone name me good agencies to do auxillary work over the summer in london, bristol or cardiff?
Jo <johannacima@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:55:32 (BST)
damn!
that was meant to read 'is'!
ange
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:31:37 (BST)
Hhhhhmmmmmm........................
So Emily, you think the way students are treated will never change and that we should all shut up and get on with it? Whilst I agree to a point that 'just getting on with it' can be the simplest coping mechanism, I dont think the issues in question should be ignored. I'm afraid its attitudes like yours that have left nursing exactly where it it - nowhere!
ange
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:30:30 (BST)
whinging students
i just want to write to complain about all the moaning students out there, no matter what you say or think, there will always be someone who is worse off than yourself !!!. If you really want to become nurses then shut up and get on with it !!!. I know its hard, I ve got five and a half months left of whats been the best and worst three years of my life. The worst having to undertake some assignments i do not really understand, being ignored by staff on the wards and being given petty tasks to do simply because I am a "student". On the other hand, Iv been made welcomed on many placements, been praised for my work by staff and patients (doesn't this make it all worthwhile). No matter how many times we moan and groan about things, it will never change. Maybe it's about time, that we just get on with it, just think of how bad most staff nurses get treated and maybe we will realise that we get it easier being students !!!. Won't it be worthwhile in the end !!!.
emily richmond
- Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 09:20:49 (BST)
Nursing in North America
In Canada and America, there are two grades of nurses, the LPN and the RN (RN's can then be divided into diploma and degree levels). The LPN is a two year course. In Canada, we spend about $3200 on tuition, our uniforms plus shoes run in at around $350, textbooks $800 - $l000. The LPN is the lowest paid level of nursing. Depending on the employer, it can be 5 LPN's under the direction of one RN. In the facilities, I've had clinical experiences in the LPN has done most of the physical aspects of patient care while the RN focuses on the paperwork. The family and patient doesn't care which grade of nurse is providing the care. The LPN leaves college owing about $7,500. The RN depending on the training anywhere between $12 - 20,000. There is a great pay discrepancy depending on the province of employment. The RN's in many areas look down on the LPN, but forget, that there are limited numbers of places in the training facilities for RN's. Two thirds of my LPN course more than exceeded the requirements for RN but couldn't get seats. In many areas, LPN's can upgrade to RN and get one years credit towards the diploma for education and experience. Got to end off now, as it's catheter insertion tomorrow.
Linda
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 23:15:22 (BST)
i am in my final year and am finding it difficult to stay focused. I too have found placements unsupportive. Yes you feel you can't complain as it may make you unpopular and jeopardise getting your learning outcomes met. I just feel that should i survive the last few months remaining I will never want to do nursing again.
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 22:41:48 (BST)
I read with much interest the last number of additions to this page concerning the attitude of employed staff to student nurses. I am just into my final year and I can say with complete honesty that I would not be prepared to start again knowing what I do now. The environment students are subject to continues to be an unsupportive one, thus leading to low morale resulting in many students leaving the course. Attitudes from employed staff, particulary HCA's leave much to be desired and can turn a potentially enjoyable and stimulating learning opportunity into a nightmare. I am sick of listening to lecturers who are unable to emphasise with the situation we are in and just tell us 'to get on with it'. Well, thats exactly what I've done - kept my head down for the sake of not being labelled. I only know that when I qualify I can make a difference to nursing. Right, enough of my whinging...........
ange
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 15:39:03 (BST)
So Yo Think It's Bad Here!!
I got sent this from a US Nursing site...a break down of a nursing course the Hours total 36 days!!!and look at the starting salary! Practical Nursing (H170605) Average Program Length · 1350 hrs Approximate Costs Application Fee $10 Registration Fee $15 Tuition $315/quin. Books $350 Books to start $150 Lab Fee $20/quin. Uniforms, Equipment, Supplies $250 Health Professional Liability Insurance $35 Approximate Total Course Cost $2300 Pre-Requisite · FDLE background check, TABE testing, H.S. Diploma or GED, others (See program office) COURSE CONTENT: Includes theoretical instruction and clinical experience in medical, surgical, obstetric, pediatric, and geriatric nursing, theoretical instruction and clinical experience in both acute and long term care situations, theoretical instruction and clinical application of vocational role and function, personal, family and community health concepts, nutrition, human growth and development over the life span body structure and function, interpersonal relationship skills, mental health concepts, pharmacology and administration of medications, legal aspects of practice and current issues in nursing, bloodborne pathogens. Prepares students for employment as Licensed Practical Nurses Approximate Starting Salary · $23,500 to 30,300/yr (Source: The Guide 2000) Job Placement: Rate · 95% (1994-95)
Dave <davidking@sparkles.synergie.net>
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 14:38:44 (BST)
Putting the HCA's in the know about what a student nurse is there for would be half the battle. I think every clinical area should have notices in the staff room explaining the role of the student and point out that we are not there to make their lives easier
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 10:37:55 (BST)
God! This is a crazy situation, student nursing is a battle all the way isn't it?? Something really does need doing - It is like being thrown into a den of lions!! All we want is to become nurses for goodness sake
- Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 10:35:58 (BST)
Its allright ive been qualified six weeks and have only just found out how to do a CSU myself!
- Monday, April 16, 2001 at 19:41:53 (BST)
I have conquered the tea trolley though!
- Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 17:16:57 (BST)
Yes something really needs to be done about the lack of support whilst on placement. My friend did the traditional training and they had people on the wards specifically to teach students at least twice a week, this would stop the HCA's using us and we would also be learning vital skills. I am 1 year into my training and have only just done a CSU and learnt how to do obs properly!! Ridiculous!!
- Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 17:16:13 (BST)
Yes, I am totally disillusioned with the whole idea of becoming a nurse. I have to pay a childminder now that it is the holidays, I have to have a part time job as well so that I can claim my Tax Credit, I am absolutely shattered and am not sure if it is worth it in the end for £15,500 pa. The only nice part is knowing that the patients like me and I can make them smile even when they are dying!
- Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 10:13:05 (BST)
i agree students are taken advantage of. Students are frequently ignored by their mentors. Not given support or adequate teaching. Some mentors' skills seriously need updating too. Yes and being used as an HCA is a common problem. I have been in situations where there is much to be learnt and then told 'go and give out the meals'. I am seriously disillusioned with the lack of support for students in clinical placements
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 19:20:06 (BST)
By the way, I already work weekends in a pub so it isn't that I am lazy it is just that I think we are taken advantage of all the time!
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:25:25 (BST)
Oh and the attitude of one particular staff nurse towards patients and students is disgusting!! When a student asked her for some salad cream to complement a patients lunch, she was told that if there wasn't any in the fridge then he would have to go and buy some!! That is only one mild example and she has already been reported to the School of Nursing for ignoring one particular student for 4 days when she was supposed to be her mentor! when the student pointed this out, she replied with "so".
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:21:41 (BST)
Supernumery????????
Isn't being supernumery a joke???? I have just done an early shift and it is bank holiday. The employed staff managed 2 bays with 1 staff nurse whilst the other 2 bays were looked after by a staff nurse who has been qualified for a week, and 3 supernumery students, one which was me!! mmmmm superb skill mix there then!!! I don't believe that students should be made to work weekends or bank holidays as it really is taking the piss is it not????? The HCA's treat us as another pair of hands there to make their job easier, whilst the majority of qualified staff just leave you to get on with it!!! Unbelievable!! Well, there is no way on this earth that I am working on Easter Monday, especially not for £2.60 an hour whilst everyone else is on time and a half!!! No Chance!!!!
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:16:57 (BST)
need a summer job.
RES SIR I AM VERY ANXIOS TO GET A SUMMER JOB IN DEL. PLS HELP ME N I HAVE GIVEN EXAM OF CLASS 12. PLS HELP AS I RELY N TRUST ON U FULLY.
aparna mehra <aparnamehra_17@yahoo.com>
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 10:39:00 (BST)
need a summer job.
RES SIR I AM VERY ANXIOS TO GET A SUMMER JOB IN DEL. PLS HELP ME N I HAVE GIVEN EXAM OF CLASS 12. PLS HELP AS I RELY N TRUST ON U FULLY.
aparna mehra <aparnamehra_17@yahoo.com>
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 10:38:13 (BST)
The return of Matron
So matron is to return at last! I can hear the applause from the 'it was better in our day brigade' from here. Is it a serious attempt to improve patient care or is it just a cynical attempt by a government to appease the daily mail reading reactionary part of england? Unfortunately i believe it is the latter, how would a return to Matron actually improve care? Some people believe that Matron would return to rule the wards with a rod of iron and would have special responsibility for the cleanliness of the wards. The question i want to ask is who would actually do the cleaning? Matron? Nurses? Nursing Auxilliaries? The reason that many wards and hospitals are filthy is not because the era of Matron ever came to an end but because cynical cost cutting by hospital mangement and the then tory governmnent led to a reduction in the number of domestic staff to carry out the cleaning tasks. The idea that by stepping back in time someone, ie. Matron would be able to wave a magic wand and solve all of the problems afflicting the health service are just ridiculous. The major problems affecting the health service are chronic mismanagement and poor staff morale. The fact that health service staff dont get paid anywhere near enough doesnt help either. And what of Matron? how will male nurses fit into this role? What will they be called? Will they be any different from todays ward managers? What sort of message will it send to other nursing nations who are developing forward when we are returning backwards. is there a case of the rose-tinted spectacles blinding politicians to what really needs to be done on the wards to improve conditions. By going back to Matron, Nursing is taking a HUGE step backwards, one form which it may never recover.
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 20:26:16 (BST)
Uniforms
At Kingston we get 2 pairs of trousers,three tunic tops and one cardigan. We don't get any dresses as we arn't given the option to wear one.
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 19:59:31 (BST)
Uniforms
4 certainly isnt many, particulary if you on a placement like A&E..........however htings dont improve much on qualifying. Most full time nurses are only issued with as few as 6 to keep them going. Back to the NHS philosphy of survival.........beg, steal or borrow. Is it any wonder we have so many hospital acquired infections!!
india
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 12:24:54 (BST)
Student nurses uniforms
Hello all. How many uniforms are other student nurses issued with at other universities? We are with the university of Nottingham and are issued with 4, not even enough for a weeks placement! We are trying to get this altered as it is just not good enough!I would like to know if anyone gets any more or less than 4? I realise that this is an ongoing issue and it has probably been raised many times before, however the new diploma in nursing requires longer and more frequent placements. All replies gratefully received.
Mark C <nqyumc1@notingham.ac.uk>
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 12:16:19 (BST)
FREE TRAVEL & TICKETS TO CONCERT IN MANCHESTER FOR Y&H STUDENT NURSES IN UNISON
ATTENTION - ALL STUDENT NURSES IN YORKS & HUMBER You know what it's like to live on next to nothing! Join the Campaign for a Living Wage in Manchester on Saturday 28 April 2001. RALLY & FREE EVENING CONCERT featuring Catatonia, Toploader, Idlewild, Dum Dums and Wheatus. There are 49 FREE PLACES available on a first come - first served - basis to attend this all-day event. This includes free transport to and from the event and free entry to the evening concert. There is a special coach available but with a limited bus route starting Leeds and picking up in Huddersfield and Bradford and there are spaces available on a bus from Hull. To reserve your place and ticket contact: Karen Towner, UNISON Organiser on 0113 2182347 or email me on k.towner@unison.co.uk no later than 16 April Leave clear details of your name, address, telephone number and preferred city pick up. If you haven't heard from us by 23 April you have not been allocated a ticket, sorry. Coach departs from Leeds at 9.00 am ish picking up in Bradford and Huddersfield and departs from Manchester at approx 10.30 pm. Transport and tickets have been paid for by: Yorkshire & Humberside Region of UNISON.
Karen Towner <k.towner@unison.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 10:21:54 (BST)
Probationary nurses: sounds good to me
Mike in reply to your idea about employing student nurses as 'trainee' staff nurses for the last six months sounds like a bloody good idea to me. Speakimg as a newly qualified staff nurse (8 weeks!!) the leap from student to staff nurse is HUGE!! talk about a learning curve. I dont think the training prepared me for the step up. This idea of a probationary nurse is certainly a good one allthhough it does raise some ideas about accountability? What does everyone else think?
Kris Nicol <nippernicol@Kris54.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, April 09, 2001 at 19:53:22 (BST)
Re 4th April Dominic Forestal
Dominic you mis-understand, this was not a swipe at the work of UNISON which I am sure is excellent. It was actually a swipe at you presonally for your persistent attacks at the work of the RCN. It's not about victories for UNISON its about a better deal for all student nurses now theres a good boy, grow up and stop being a pathetic little individual. The RCN seem to have the same goals as UNISON it just seems to me that they go about their work in a much more civilised manner than you do.
- Monday, April 09, 2001 at 13:36:46 (BST)
THANATOLOGY
What is it?
Ron Hubbard
- Monday, April 09, 2001 at 04:31:40 (BST)
rehab
what is the role of the nurse in the rehabilitation process
susan thomson <robbiemacg@aol.com>
- Friday, April 06, 2001 at 16:05:13 (BST)
New Site
We have a new site, CEU2000.com, at http://www.ceu2000.com. CEU2000 provides affordable continuing healthcare education and career services in Nursing, Behavioral Health and Medicine. It offers healthcare chat rooms, forums, inspirational content, humor, many professional resources including cultural diversity and thanatology resources and much, much more. If you have any questions please contact me: Christina McMurray RN, BSN Healthcare Education Coordinator Orion Healthcare Technology http://www.orionhealthcare.com http://www.ceu2000.com http://www.healthcarewriters.com Ph: (800) 324-7966 Fx: (402) 341-8911 Intl: 011-1-402-341-8880 E-Mail: christina@orionhealthcare.com Thank you for your time.
Christina McMurray <christina@orionhealthcare.com>
- Friday, April 06, 2001 at 14:50:19 (BST)
Help! Calling all Nurses and Student Nurses...
If anybody fancies a change of scene and tempo we are looking to recruit nurses for our American-style International Summer Camps. Superb coastal, rural and London locations, great lifestyle, friendly working environment...if you'd like an alternative summer experience please contact me at doogie@campbeaumont.com
Dougie Finlay <doogie@campbeaumont.com>
- Friday, April 06, 2001 at 10:00:49 (BST)
Enquiry from a dumb outsider..
Dear Anyone, I am a researcher for a Soho-based television and film production company called Mustard. We are currently developing the script for a short feature film in which one of the characters is a nurse, and I was wondering if you could help me with some (rather ignorant, I'm afraid) questions about nursing and nurses. Although this nurse character is not a central one, and the fact that she is nurse is not really an integral part of the film, we want to make things as realistic as possible, and so I would be very grateful if you could give some advice on the following very simple issues. This character is a mother with two daughters - one a teenager, the other about 8 years old - and so is probably in her mid to late 30s'. If she has been a nurse 'from the beginning', and is hardworking and competent, what would be her likely 'rank' (is there such a thing in nursing?), what kind of hours might she work, and in what kind of hospital department could she work(she does work in a hospital, that much is certain). Or are these non-questions with no real definite answer? Also, what kind of clothing or uniform would a nurse of her level and experience wear? Or would this again be extremely variable? I would really appreciate any help on these questions, and of course we will be happy to credit you in the final film if you are able to help. I can be contacted on richardldhughes@hotmail.com, I hope I can hear from at least someone! Yours, Richard Hughes
richard hughes <richardldhughes@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 11:31:27 (BST)
10.4% to be precise!!!
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 20:35:50 (BST)
Student Nurse bursaries
From what I gather, we're getting a 10.3%(ish) payrise which will take effect in September 2001. This means that those on the lowest bursary will get £40 per month more. I know it's not as much as we deserve, and the fight from Unison and RCN to get the bursary raised is far from over, but it's better than a kick in the teeth at the end of the day. I've heard from one source that Alan Milburn was once considering putting us all on grants and loans, but I don't know how true that is.
Matt Richardson <matto.richo@ntlworld.com>
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 19:21:33 (BST)
Pathetic?
Some people may consider the work UNISON has done pathetic but it has been rather effective. I'm certainly not going to apologise.
Dominic
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 14:37:27 (BST)
elective placement
hi i am interested in doing my elective somewhere in america (would have prefered thaiand but cant speak any thai :( i was wondering if anyone had any information, contacts, experience etc they could send me cheers guys and girls dan
daniel allerton <dja199@soton.ac.uk>
- Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 10:57:24 (BST)
Staff levels.
We hear so much about the shortage of nurses. I think a good way to help the situation would be to employ students full time (and of course on full pay) in the last 6 months of their training, as probational staff nurses. This would lead to more staff on the wards and at the end of their training they would be more confident to tackle the roll of "staff nurse". Obviously certain safe guards would have to be built in to the plan to stop the management from abusing the situation butI feel with the RIGHT planing it could work well.
Mike
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 21:06:20 (BST)
I dont believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
does anyone know the info on student burserys for the diploma students being raised by £500 per annum???????
zoe murrell <zoemurrell@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:22:48 (BST)
Dominic you are pathetic grow up
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:07:55 (BST)
Suren wanted to defect to Unison
fortunately he was persuaded to 'keep up the fight' in ANS. The RCN/ANS can keep him! Is there anyone he hasn't acused of being racist/corrupt/arrogant/sexist/you name it, in either NUS or the RCN at some point?
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 13:20:15 (BST)
Representation of HCA's
The key part of being able to represent your members is being recognised by the employer as the union for that particular staff group. UNISON has sole recognition in the overwhelming majority of NHS trusts for representing HCA's and so therefore would be the only union recognised by the trust to represent students who are working additional hours on their trust's bank during their training. For registered nurses, midwives and health visitors recognised union's include UNISON amongst other's in the NHS.
Dominic forristal <D.Forristal2@unison.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:27:46 (BST)
U've missed the boat in Belfast!
Another supposed RCN bastion where in fact nothing has been done for students - not now - not ever. Students were being fleeced for the costs of their uniform and they even had to fork out for a university fleece which cost £50. UNISON has put a stop to that! But this moring - after seeing the posting I wrote yesterday they've now decided that have to try and regain some credibility by meeting with the department of health in Northern Ireland this Wednesday. Sorry mate, we did that one two weeks ago! Isn't there an ANS executive member who studies at Queens? Why wasn't he doing anything about this one? Maybe he was too busy brushing shoulders with the great and the good at the RCN's new plush HQ?
Dominic Forristal <D.Forristal2@unison.co.uk>
- Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:01:59 (BST)
Oh for the heady days of last Sptember. The talk of ANS Conference was in the air and the debate on this board controversial challenging and a bloody good read. One almost feels like begging for the return of that fine craftsmen of pour mother tongue Suren Suku. Let's put some passion back in to the debate. It looks like a June General Election so lets air the issues that matter COME BACk SUREN WE MISS U LOTS
Have You All Gone Tame Again <Let The Passion Return>
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 18:20:32 (BST)
Well Christmas has come and gone What Have you achieved Suren??? Can we now judge you????? Empty promises on your Personal crussade
This is what Suren asked for back in September!!!! "when i am in office i am going to arrange meetings with various people who are responsible for student funding and bursaries. i am also campaigning to drop off vat on all study materials and student related items. all i am asking give me a chance and not knock me off before i even took office. the email i sent to Roger Obermaier was a personal issue and not a public one. i had that choice of responding to him on the website but i chose not to be offensive and treat him in the manner he has treated me. i respect peoples views and opinions and i would expect the same in return. roger give me a chance and if by christmas you do not see any difference then u are welcome to question me and criticise me. as long as i have not taken office please keep your criticisms till then. PLEASE GIVE ME A CHANCE ..... I HAVE NOT YET TAKEN OFFICE.....SUPPORT ME AND I WILL DO MY BEST FOR ALL OF YOU.......NURSES AND NURSING STUDENTS. suren suku" CHRISTMAS HAS COME AND GONE AND WHAT OF YOUR EMPTY RHETORIC???? What is quoted below below is real, the quote above was nothing but hot air "WHEN THEY SEE WHAT I STAND FOR AND SEE THE CHANGES .....THEY WOULD JUDGE ME ON THAT AND NOT ON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE......I MERELY RESPONDED TO YOUR POSTINGS...SEEMS LIKE U DO NOT LIKE THE REPLIES YOU GET U ATTACK ME AND TRY TO MAKE ME THE BAD GUY....WELL THUS FAR I HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR UNITY AND WORKING TOGETHER......HAVE ANY OF YOU SAID YES WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER......THAT SAYS A LOT...RACISM IS NOT WHAT WRITTEN OR SAID BY A PERSON....IT IS THE ACTION THAT SPEAKS LOUDER THAN THEIR WORDS....GOOD BYE AND GOD BLESS....NOW LEAVE ME ALONE I GOT BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN RESPOND TO SILLY POSTINGS LIKE THESE....."
Diappointed of Anywhere
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 17:57:27 (BST)
A wee bit of clarification
I recently read a Unison letter from their Chair of Students that claimed that only UNISON provided full Trade Union Representation for Student Nurses working as HCA's. I'm an RCN and was assured that they too provided me with full support when working as an HCA. I'm worried now can somone please tell me the truth?? Are the RCN misleading me or are UNISON misleading potential recruits???? HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 17:08:49 (BST)
Being fleeced for a fleece?
Students at Queens University in Belfast are being forced to buy a university fleece as a complusary part of their 'uniform'. The DoH here in NI is going to put a stop to it after UNISON exposed it after being contacted to students who were pissed off contacted us. Do any other universities try any of this on? Contact me if your uni attempts anything like this.
Dominic Forristal <D.Forristal2@unison.co.uk>
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 13:50:18 (BST)
I think I will become a whore too!!! perhaps we could open a brothel and only choose the sexy clients!!! The stress I am going through at the moment is far too much, my 6 year old causes most of it though!!!!
Anita
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 11:00:14 (BST)
someone help
i am 20 years old and in my first year of nursing i was wondering if anyone out their can help me with a tone of assigments i have due in the next 2 weeks.anyway its pretty cool that we have this site.
shawn <shunt_69@hotmail.com>
- Monday, April 02, 2001 at 04:34:42 (BST)
THATS IT, I,M OFF.
Sorry but I am now so fed up with it all that i am now going to become a whore. It must be better this lot of tripe. I may even ejoy it.
Emma
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 18:52:20 (BST)
Oh dear!
Reading some of your comments boys and girls. I have come to the conclusion that some of you would be more suited to a career on a building site than nursing. DO YOU F-----G LOT get my drift. Is it any wonder that the NHS is like it is when articles like some of you are trying to kid us, (jo public) that you are nice, respectable, caring, people who want to care for others. Pull the other one.
Student's parent.
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 16:38:47 (BST)
twats!
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 15:00:01 (BST)
where does it state that names and email addresses must be given???????
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 09:57:43 (BST)
'ere 'ere
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 09:56:05 (BST)
Why oh why do the most gullible and naiive always sign their names to everything......
- Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 00:55:09 (BST)